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FS2004 Approach for non existent Runway

Messages
1,465
Country
germany
In FS9 default RJTT are 3 VOR approaches for a non existing runway 00.

Is there an explanation?

(ADE does not allow to add approaches for a non existing rwy)

RJTT_RWY00.jpg
 
Messages
2,930
Country
newzealand
Could it possibly be for an old runway that used to be there when Aces wrote the approaches?
 
Messages
777
Country
unitedstates
Lots of airports have VOR approaches not associated with a runway.

They are a non-precision approach designed to get you below the clouds so you can make a visual landing.

Seems like ADE should allow for this type of approach to be added, a question for Jim V.

cheers,
Lane
 
Messages
8,893
Runway 00 is the same as runway 36.

Lane explains it correctly. Multiple VOR approaches with a letter suffix in FS uses runway 00.

ADE does not see the fake runway 00 as a visual runway so approaches cannot be added unless you have prokey or use the previous ILS work around.
 
Messages
8,893
I have prokey, but ADE does not allow to add an approach the usual way.

How should it be done?

My thought was using the Raw Data View to add or make the changes needed.

Are you trying to add another VOR (suffix) approach?
 
Messages
1,465
Country
germany
It is simple, I want to create all approaches and some transitions for RJTT as published by AIS Japan these days.

So I have to check the fs9 supplied approaches

if they are good enough to modify them,

if they are to be deleted or

if I can learn something of them.

There is a new runway 23 in between and some strange (for me) approaches like "LDA X RWY23" for example. To create this approach I need a second localizer for RWY23 besides the ILS.
It is called "LDA-LOC ITL". I have some infos about this localizer, but no idea how to realize it with ADE.
I attach pics for better understanding of my poor English.





RJTT_NAVs2.jpg


RJTT_NAVs3.jpg
 
Messages
8,893
There is a new runway 23 in between and some strange (for me) approaches like "LDA X RWY23" for example. To create this approach I need a second localizer for RWY23 besides the ILS.
It is called "LDA-LOC ITL". I have some infos about this localizer, but no idea how to realize it with ADE.
I attach pics for better understanding of my poor English.

ADE will add a LDA and the approach even if a ILS exist for the same runway. The ILS and the LDA are 2 different type approaches using different Localizers in some cases so you can add those with the ADE Approach Mode Editor. Some ILS's in the USA also have LDA's such as KSNA rwy 19R.

The RJTT LDA 23 is very similar to the PHNL LDA 26L so use that as a reference if needed.

In ADE Airport Mode you add a Localizer to runway 23 with a heading of 277 degrees. Pay strict attention to were the LDA Localizer antenna is placed at the end of the triangle on your chart. This LDA approach at 277 degrees will give you a 43 degree offset to runway 23.

The turn to runway 23 is at the MaPt (FSX added Terminal_Waypoint) which is also DME 4.9 from the ITL localizer DME antenna.

When adding the scenery object localizer antenna set the heading to 277 as per the picture.

Google Earth shows where the 23 offset Localizer antenna is placed on the airfield.

fsscr002.jpg


Using ADE Airport Mode we add the Localizer Scenery Object for the antenna and the ILS shack. The Antenna will have a heading of 277 degrees and use the Lat/Lon I have set with Manual. NOTE the location of the DME antenna which is to the right of the Localizer antenna as per Google.

fsscr005.jpg


Using ADE add a ILS with DME to runway 23. The ILS and DME will be at runway 23 so drag them over to the antenna as per the next picture. Set IDENT, Freq, heading and use my Lat/Lon.

fsscr006.jpg


Now open the Approach Mode Editor and make a new approach under the LDA type. DOYLE is the IF, the FAF on your chart is the CF DAMBO and the last CF will be the MaPt (missed Approach Point). Make a T_Waypoint for the MaPt and give it a name like MAP23.
 
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Messages
1,465
Country
germany
Thanks for the detailed description and patience. Using FSX in your example is no problem, if FS9 works similar.

(I got this warning and did not dare to continue before)

LOC1.jpg


But now I continued and could install it and a scenery object for ILS fence too.

There is a side effect, I suppose. In the GPS is the ILS missing, only the LOC is displayed.

GPS.jpg


I checked the XML code. Perhaps the second ILS is overwriting the first?
Is it possible to place the second ILS outside the airport nest?
 

scruffyduck

Administrator
Staff member
FSDevConf team
Resource contributor
Messages
34,853
Country
unitedkingdom
I am watching this thread and if there is something that we need to update in ADE then I will add it to the list.
 
Messages
8,893
Using FSX in your example is no problem, if FS9 works similar.

FS9 and FSX are the same but I changed to FS9

I got this warning and did not dare to continue before
But now I continued and could install it and a scenery object for ILS fence too.

IT is a warning only because ADE needs to know that you really want to add 2 type ILS's for the same runway and in this case YES you do.

If you added the 2 runway 23 ILS's in the Airport Mode they will look like this in the Approach Mode. One Green feather is on the actual runway of 23 and the other green feather is the LDA (ILS) which is 47 degrees offset from runway 23.

fsscr008.jpg



NOTICE the warning also says ADE will NOT add any approach code. After the ILS's are added per the Airport Mode you have to write the approaches. ADE does not know if you want a

ILS --->> ILS
ILS --->> Localizer
ILS --->> LDA
ILS --->> SDF
ILS --->> Localizer BackCourse

I add the 1st Approach which is the ILS for runway 23. I resorted the list to make it easier to read.

fsscr009.jpg


now I add a 2nd Approach and I make sure I select the LDA type approach. It looks like this when finished

fsscr010.jpg


Now we run into a slight problem. FS9 GPS does not display the runway ILS information correctly. The GPS thinks the LDA is a Localizer approach since there is no glide slope and FS9 GPS does not show the ILS 23 runway. This is one of those cases where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. ACES gave us the ability to code multiple ILS type approaches but then did not program the GPS to show them on the ILS page.

fsscr011.jpg


In order to see all the approaches you have made page the GPS over one more screen and that page will list them. Now you see the ILS 23 and the LDA 23 on the list and it can be selected as part of your planned approach. If you are flying a STAR off the enroute Jet Airway the STAR is added into the Flightplan. ATC will honor the STAR and when you are turned over to approach controller you deline the vectors to final and ask for a Transition and one of the approaches.



fsscr012.jpg
 
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Messages
1,465
Country
germany
Jim wrote:

"....Now we run into a slight problem. FS9 GPS does not display the runway ILS information correctly. The GPS thinks the LDA is a Localizer approach since there is no glide slope and FS9 GPS does not show the ILS 23 runway. This is one of those cases where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. ACES gave us the ability to code multiple ILS type approaches but then did not program the GPS to show them on the ILS page..."

Thanks Jim, thats exactly what I had seen.

It is no problem for me to live with restrictions caused by fs9 or ADE.
I just want to avoid errors caused by my limited knowledge.
:)
 
Messages
1,465
Country
germany
By the way, Jim, are you sure your localizer is okay?

Shouldn't is be 270 degree (true) because of the 7 degree magvar?

RJTT_NAVs3a.jpg
 
Messages
8,893
You are correct, should be 270

I was not being precise but only showing examples. I also showed the Localizer for runway 23 on center line in my above picture but it is offset by 2 degrees. I don't have the approach plates and I am trying to use the parts you show. Its hard to be presice when some parts of the chart are cutoff at the bottom of the pictures.

This picture is more precise for the localizer and GS positions as per the approach chart (2 degree mag offset) and Google Earth showing antenna positions. DME antenna is located just to the right of the GS which on the chart shows .2 NM difference between threshold and actual DME.

fsscr014.jpg


I can't see the minimums on the chart but at some point the plane must make a slight turn to the left and align with the runway. I used a MA23Z T_Waypoint for a turn to left which is the point the plane is on center of the runway. However that is a 400 ft minimum and not 200 ft which is normal for a Cat 1 approach. I did not extend the missed appr all the way out to the HM hold. Again these are examples for you to look at. hope it helps

fsscr015.jpg
 
Messages
1,465
Country
germany
I am sorry to show you not all the info you needed. I am unsure if I may publish the charts I downloaded from AIS Japan. My English is far from perfect in legal (and other) things.

But I understand your intention to show me only examples.
So let me please ask another question.
When I add an approach, I have to tell ADE FAF and IAF. But in the charts it is FAF and IF. (IAF in the charts is another waypoint further outside).

IAF2.jpg

shouldn't 5 and 6 be "IF Type" and "IF Ident"?
 
Messages
1,465
Country
germany
And you are correct, the LOC ITD is here:

locitd2.jpg


The offset of 2 degrees means 232 degrees and runway is 230 degrees???
 
Messages
8,893
Hello Guenther

Your English is very good

The offset of 2 degrees means 232 degrees and runway is 230 degrees???

YES

Runway headings are TRUE not Mag when you add and set them with ADE.

I calculate using ADE and other maps the runway 05/23 is 42.6 Degrees TRUE Base heading.

42.6 true base heading + 180 reciprocal = 222.6 +7 Mag variance = 229.6 (rounded up to 230 mag heading)

fsscr017.jpg



Runway 23 Localizer is offset 2.0 degrees +229.6 = 231.6 (rounded to 232 mag heading on approach to runway)

fsscr018.jpg



When I add an approach, I have to tell ADE FAF and IAF but in the charts it is FAF and IF. (IAF in the charts is another waypoint further outside).
shouldn't 5 and 6 be "IF Type" and "IF Ident"?

3 and 4 should say "FAF Type" and "FAF Ident"

5 and 6 should say "IAF/IF Type" and "IAF/IF Ident" since it varies from country to country and could be related to the beginning of approach, the mid point in the approach, or could even be an altitude.

(Jon if you are following this could you code 3, 4, 5 and 6 to show the additional letters in the next full beta of ADE?)

In many Counties

IAF is Initial Approach Fix. It marks the start of the Initial segment of the approach.
IF is the Intermediate Fix, which marks the start of the next, or Intermediate segment.
Final segment is marked by the FAF or Final Approach Fix.

It is your option to code the Initial Approach Fix (IAF) or Intermediate Fix (IF) on many Appr charts for the start of the approach on the GPS

fsscr016.jpg


In real world the IAF on the chart marks the point at which the lower speed limits start to come into force (example slowing to 220 KIAS). The IAF also marks the point at which the width of the protection area reduces from the width that was associated with the enroute phase of flight. If a STAR is used off the enroute flight, to the transition and then to the approach segments, there may be other changes that have to be enforced (ie secondary IF areas) .

The IF (intermediate fix) on the approach phase marks the point at which the width of the lateral protection area progressively becomes smaller. The FAF marks the start of even further progressive width reduction. Real world pilots MIGHT see obstacles at a closer range without getting too nervous about them since the localizer looks something like a long pointed triangle or a arrowhead.
 
Messages
1,465
Country
germany
Thanks Jim for clearing my "fog"
:)

I have read, there is no way to delete stock markers. There are some misplaced or obsolete markers around RJTT.
I have tried to shoot them to the north pole by editing latitude manually, but it did not work.

The xml code is changed, but they are still on the world map.
:(

It looks like I have to live with them.
 
Messages
8,893
Guenther

You cannot move or delete a marker, it will duplicate but I see you already know that.

I do not know why ACES hardcoded markers instead of using a deleteAllMarkers=True and then code the marker back in using XML code.
 
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Messages
1,465
Country
germany
It looks like ACES had another bug:

Whereas GPS does show runway number of LDA approaches, ATC does not...
Thats a problem if there are 2 LDAs like "LDA Y RWY22" and "LDA Y RWY23"

LDA2.jpg


(if there is a suffix, ATC loses runway number
 
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