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AI landing stoping distance

Discussion in 'Airport Design Editor' started by b_spanjer, 10/8/09.

  1. b_spanjer

    b_spanjer

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    This has nothing to do with ADE but I was wondering if the stoping distance could be changed in the aircrafts info file. The reason I ask is because some AI stop quickly and some dont. I was hoping to make it so AI can uses maybe two taxiways off the runway VS 3 or 4 different ones. I know at real airports they use the taxiway that will give them a better straight shot to the terminal. Can anyone help?
  2. tgibson

    tgibson

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    There are two stages to the AI slowing down on the runway.

    1. Early - Reverse thrust. Alter the minimum throttle line in the General Engine Data section of the plane's aircraft.cfg file. More negative stops faster.

    2. Late - Brakes. Alter the toe brake scalar line. Larger numbers stop faster.

    Hope this helps,
  3. SpectroPro

    SpectroPro

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    If you search on this site, you will see we discuss this very topic a few times. This should give you a laugh.. it's one of my ai making a turn onto taxi way. What is the big whoop-ti-doo about that?? It's nose wheel touched down about 10 feet before it made this turn. Would have been like 110kts to 2kts in about 1.5 seconds. LOL Can you say dead customers!!!!!

    - Greg

    PS: Just after I snapped this pic, it did a really cool couple rolls and cartwheels.

    [​IMG]
  4. bobbyjack

    bobbyjack

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    Greg

    Have to say I've never seen an AI plane land and do what your's did. I don't use a lot of non-default AI, especially airliners ( 'cause it's a bugger to get the jetways to hook-up) but when they do someting goofy, I try to figure out why(but not very hard, 'cause they are usually bad AI planes) or just don't use them any more.

    Bob
  5. SpectroPro

    SpectroPro

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    Bob..hehe, No kidding... I have seen this with 5 planes.. not checked the files yet, so that's probably a good fix.

    And yes, they are ALL normal models to fly. I just use them as test planes because I love looking at them. :)

    - Greg
  6. b_spanjer

    b_spanjer

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    those changes in the code did work. Thank you.
    Greg are you sure you done have cable arrest wires on your runways lol
  7. SpectroPro

    SpectroPro

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    haha.. NO kidding, the first time I saw it, I checked to see if I did. I have an addon to put them on runways, and I have done that in the past when I had a short rwy here for carrier training... So that was actually a thought.. but, I have seen it happen at my airport and every airport my AI fly into.... Again, just for testing purposes..these are flyable aircraft NOT meant to be AI...so it probably is in the settings..

    - Greg
  8. bobbyjack

    bobbyjack

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    For me, addon flyable planes make bad AI. Sure they are fun to look at, but there can be just too many problems. Models tend to be complex so that you take a big fps hit if there are too many of them. So many are ported FS9 planes that don't lend themselves well to FSX when controled by ATC. Sometimes you get lucky, but... Better to extract WOAI or PAI, etc. planes.

    Bob
  9. jvile

    jvile

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    There is no such thing as a 3rd party FSX AI Plane. All 3rd party AI Planes are either FS2k2 or FS9 (see the .air file).

    The only way to have a FSX AI plane is to use one of the default planes that ship with MS FSX.

    UT II says the AI models are FSX which is true for most of their AI Planes (Aardvark and TFS). Do not confuse the model.mdl in place of the entire AI Plane. FDE's are still the FS2k2 or the FS9. Many of the AI Planes do not work well (fly) in FSX.

    Aardvark's philosophy from the very beginning is to stop the plane on a dime. Their thought was to get the plane stopped in a very short distance and exit the runway to help eliminate go arounds. This does not work at large airports and causes more head to head and bottle necks. At large airports you can have 15 or 20 AI Planes waiting for takeoff. The line covers the first 2 exit taxiways but Aardvark will exit at those taxiways causing stalls.

    For large airports AI Planes should maintain a fast rollout after landing until reaching 20 kts (see Jan Martin's FDE website). At 20 kts the AI plane now looks for the first available exit taxiway. Much better for that to be at the middle/end of a runway and not at the beginning of a runway.
  10. robystar

    robystar

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    I happen to disagree with you, Jim, but only partly so, especially regarding your 'outspoken' statement that there are no true 3rd party AI planes.
    Sure, some do not behave as they should but many do. And if one of them has a short run out distance, it can be remedied either through the .air file or the .cfg. You could also borrow the aircraft.cfg and .air file from a native FSX plane and adapt it for use in a 3rd party plane. I do not say it is easy but it can be done and e.g. WoAI does have some very good AI planes with low poly count and good flying characteristics (no, I have no interests in WoAI).
    And even though technically/theoretically they would not be 100% but only 99% true AI, their behaviour is maybe more influenced by the airport afcad design than their FDE. More mistakes are made in designing airports than in flight dynamics.
    You are the one to tell me I should try out my afcads with default FSX airplanes and then see if add ons act the same. If they do, then they should be OK, I guess. Or not?
  11. BASys

    BASys

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    Hi Folks

    Rob -
    You've misquoted Jim.
    Jim quite explicitly said There is no such thing as a 3rd party FSX AI Plane.

    Inclusion of an FS8/9 air or cfg file
    makes them FS8/9 AI planes.

    HTH
    ATB
    Paul
  12. robystar

    robystar

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    I agree in as far as there seem to be no AI planes for FSX eyes only, Paul.
    But, say for instance, you design a low poly Beechcraft Baron (there are) and add the default FSX Baron cfg and air files to it. Wiouldn't that be a true FSX AI craft?
  13. bobbyjack

    bobbyjack

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    Nobody said 3rd party AI doesn't work in FSX. But it sure is hit 'n miss. Hmmm, just like most other things in FS. Just changing the air file might work, or not. As you say, you have to muck with it, and have to know what you are doing. Not always worth it to me. And then there is the problem of modifying someone else's work.
    I like jetways to come out to my airliners. I haven't checked in a few months, but no addons do that. Yes, you can download fixes for a few, but mostly you have to go into the cfg yourself and fix it. I've done that, and don't like it. There is no fix for the prop on some addons. Seems to be part of the model. I have deleted the prop texture altogether and still there is a black circle.

    Bob
  14. SpectroPro

    SpectroPro

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    3rd party AI planes for FSX are coming.

    I know this for a fact since I have been working with the company that is making them.

    They make amazing aircraft to fly, and told me they wanted to get into AI versions of their planes but couldn't find anyone willing to help them with what we, as the public, look for in AI planes. So I have been helping them.

    This works out perfectly since we (BSA) will be using many of their planes for our VA.

    When I wrote to them asking if they ever planned on making AI versions, they gave me the story and their desire to do just that.

    So, while there may not be any yet, they will be here soon. :)

    You're welcome.. LOL

    - Greg

    EDIT: I'll have to make sure they don't use fs8/9 files...lol

    EDIT +: AI always gets into a big discussion on here...any chance of making an AI sub forum? I know I would post in it quite often!!!
    Last edited: 11/8/09
  15. jvile

    jvile

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    You can put a texture on any FSX stock plane and it can be a FSX AI Plane.

    How many times do we see post that say all the 3rd party AI Planes are not flyable because they are AI. Someone forgot to tell MS that since most all their planes (except 3) are both flyable and AI. When I say 3rd party I do not mean what a user can do with a copied .cfg or .air. I am refereing to all the major players that develope the AI Planes we all download from various web sites.

    In order to have a fully FSX AI Plane you need a minimum of 3 things

    1. FSX model.mdl
    2. FSX .air file
    3. FSX .cfg file

    Find me a 3rd party AI Plane that we download as part of a payware or freeware package that meet these 3 criteria. My statement above that no 3rd party FSX plane exist is because the modeler does not have the tools to make one (at least I cannot find them in the FSX SDK).

    You cannot take a stock FSX B737 or B747 and turn it into a A340-600 AI Plane. The model.mdl that the textures are placed on regardless of poly count and the .air file cannot be created without the proper tools (see my post further down for Greg).

    In your first post you have some very valid points. I accept your disagreement but I am refering to all the 3rd party AI Planes that developers of the major players make. I have some AI Planes that are true FSX but I use some textures that were designed for FSX stock planes like Delta and Southwest.



    Yes some users can change the .air and/or the .cfg for the exact same type plane. My statement is based on what the 3rd party AI Plane players do and not what a single person does for their own AI Plane.

    Poly count is for friendly FPS and has nothing to do with the .air aerodynamics (flyability). WOAI does not make AI Planes but use what is available per permissions from the major player designers.


    Not sure I understand that statement. AFCAD or any enhanced airport has nothing to do with the flyability of a AI Plane. Airport design addresses the ground behavior and parking of the AI Plane.

    Testing different AI Planes (FSX vs FS2k2/FS2004) using different AFCAD's does nothing. Testing a 3rd party AI Plane vs all the LDA curved approaches, VOR / NDB type approaches or the visual approaches to a runway without a ILS approach code will tell you everything.
  16. jvile

    jvile

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    Are you sure a true FSX AI Plane is coming soon.

    I might have missed it in the FSX SDK but I cannot find the tool needed to make the FSX .air file.

    In FS2004 the Aircraft Container SDK (aircraft.cfg) says

    Note, existing aircraft means FS2004 type aircraft.

    In FS2k2/FS2004 we had a SDK that did create a new aircraft from scratch using a template. Many AI modelers still use the FS2004 tools to make their current AI Planes that we import into FSX.

    Each newer version of FS changes the .air file. More values of what was in the .air of previous versions are placed into the model.mdl and the aircraft.cfg.

    The .air file is one of the most protected MS files in all the simulator. We have never had a way to create one from scratch using some manual means. MS gave us tools so when we plug in all the numbers the .air file is generated in a very secure code.

    FDE means Flight Dynamics Editor. The Editor is part of a tool made by MS so we could generate the aircraft.air file for that version of FS (ie FS2k2 or FS2004).

    Notice in the FDE (E meaning Editor) when we save the aircraft that we are building both the .air and the .cfg is made for us at the AeroGen portion of the flow chart. Nothing about the AeroGen part of the build process is made public.

    [​IMG]

    Some additional information when using the Flight Dynamics Editor tool says

    Notice the line that says

    This information is then placed into the aircraft’s .air file, which is not editable.

    There are 3rd party utility's that open the .air file for information and study purposes. MS says the AIR file is not editable because it is a highly secure file and should never be tampered with and uploaded to websites. We are allowed in FS2k2 and FS2004 to make a new aircraft which makes a new AIR file for us with all the aerodynamics we enter into the tool.

    As stated earlier in this post each FDE (Flight Dynamics Editor) for each version of FS is different. Never make any changes in the Flight Dynamics tab in FSEdit; you will ruin the AIR file if the wrong version is used between FS2k2 and FS2004.

    My question is, if there is no longer a FSedit.exe tool for FDE's in the FSX SDK then how can someone say they are making a true FSX User or AI Plane.
  17. SpectroPro

    SpectroPro

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    Ok...guess there will NOT be any FSX AI. :) I don't get into all that crap...what I know is they are making the amazing planes they make for FSX available for use as AI, built specifically for use as AI in FSX.

    How they do it, or what they do...not a clue..and don't really care. Just happy as heck that they are doing it finally.

    - Greg
  18. adr179

    adr179

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    Very true statement is only few third party aircraft have flight dynamics that makes them usable as AI traffic. If one is not really familiar with tools as AirEd, AirDat and AAM and doesn't want to spend days, if not weeks tweaking flight dynamics of each and every aircraft that he'd like to use,there's a "quick&dirty" solution to this problem: For each category (single engine nosewheel and taildragger, piston twin, turboprop and jets) find at least one aircraft that behaves. When you find it, just copy the *.AIR file into another aircraft's folder, rename it and change line "sim=xxxxxx" in aircraft.cfg acordingly. This way you'll quickly get a decently flying AI aircraft, all that's left is a couple of tweaks in aircraft.cfg to adjust a few parameters like increasing or decreasing engine's power and cruise speed and drag. In acouple of tries one can get a pretty decent result.
  19. robystar

    robystar

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    Jim,

    I'd better withdraw my case here because no one can find any holes in your very convincing arguments.
    What I did want to convey is that maybe some people have a different approach to FS than you do. I guess you try to find out everything there is to know about the inner workings of FS while I am more into finding means of making FS do and show what I would like, be it with some drawbacks when it comes to reaching perfection.
  20. tgibson

    tgibson

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    Well, modified AIR files are released all the time, and a few authors actually know what they are doing. Many don't, however, I agree.

    While we do not know the meaning of every single entry in the AIR file, much is known and can be edited using AirEd.

    Starting with FS2002 most of what was once in the AIR file has been moved to the aircraft.cfg file, which is easily editable. This movement continued with FS2004, where the almost all "easy" values were moved to the cfg file. The things left in the AIR file include drag values and power curves, among other things I know nothing about (but others do).

    AFAIK, the format of the FSX AIR file has not changed much from the FS2004 version, and can still be edited with AirEd. So I'm not sure how relevant the AIR file is to the argument about true FSX AI aircraft. If nothing else, you can always modify an FSX default AIR file and be able to claim it is "true FSX". There isn't much in the AIR file used by AI aircraft, anyway. I use a default B737 AIR file for most of my piston propliners and they fly pretty well. Obviously they don't fly like a 737, nor even have a jet flight model in the cfg file, yet they work fine (at least they make your turn to the runway at Kai Tak very reliably). :)

    Hope this helps,

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