P3D v4 GP and custom ground lines

[Gerald Krutsch]

Could you please walk me through the test? I don't know what you mean with disabling the ADE scenery .bgl (furthermore, not all the GP's are below the apron e.g. between ARP building and apron, right in front of the parking positions, I see terrain texture...).

 

[gadgets]

By disabling, I mean suffix the filename in the scenery folder with, say ".xxx" or temporarily delete the file.

Don't confuse terrain polys with GPs. We're referring only to GPs here.

DOn

 

[scruffyduck]

Is this in sim or in ADE?

 

[Gerald Krutsch]

I'm unable to reproduce what Don say's. I actually did rename the scenery BGL in the first place and did compile the GP at an offset of 1m but still could not see the custom lines. P3D loaded the default ARP (RWY/TXW) with the new buildings (since I compiled OBJ in sepparate BGL).
I'm now thinking that my GP textures are in a wrong place.

 

[gadgets]

Gerald, this is not something you did wrong - at least not yet. I can't make it work either.

Jon, two things. The symptoms we're talking about (so far) are in the sim. At any spot on the PV4 screen where a GP (irrespective of elevation) texture overlaps an apron texture and the former should be displayed, the apron texture is displayed instead. In the case of Gerald's airport, the ADE apron is much larger than the stock apron. So, with the ADE "scenery" file disabled, you can see portions of the GPs before they disappear "below" the stock apron. So, the GPs are being drawn otherwise normally.

The other thing is that, on the ADE screen, the GP lines are drawn MUCH wider that their specified width until one clicks on them; then their width on the ADE display returns to normal. I loaded my own CYYJ and re-compiled it. The lines on the ADE screen are displayed with the proper width and, after compiling, the PV4 display is normal, i.e., all my GPs are displayed.

Since no one else is complaining about such issues, that suggests a problem in Gerald's file .ad4 file (attached a couple posts above). Is it possible the ADE database has been corrupted in the transition from FSX to PV4?

Don

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/gp-and-custom-ground-lines.440977/#post-780625

For test purposes, instead of messing about with addon.xmls and adding an extra layer of complexity, why not just create a folder in Addon Scenery and enable (as you would have in FSX). Note, however, you must be running PV4 "as Administrator" in order to change the Scenery Library.

Don

Hi Don:

Although I'm sympathetic to a philosophical viewpoint that "Geeks always reserve the right to tinker under the hood", I am also compelled to wonder whether the goal of LM for integrating add-on scenery content into P3D 3.x / 4.x via the XML-based "Add-on" methods that Ed Wilson (aka "WarpD") has been actively advocating here and elsewhere since the 'new' procedure was announced by LM ...'may' prove to have some merit behind it.


I was particularly intrigued by what may be inferred from the issues cited in this thread I just read at the P3D forum:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=125092


Hope this helps with troubleshooting the current scenario with Gerald, as well as identifying general "best Practices" (and enhanced, effective, "under the hood" work-arounds ! ).


PS: Another aphorism I'm pondering today is:

" Education (and FS Development) in a vacuum ... SUCKS ! "


IMHO, LM needs to be more forthcoming with better documentation of what to expect from changes in the RTM version- and all interim updates- of P3D (especially versions 3.x and 4.x).

This post by Rob Aincough says what we've been saying <...erm, for DECADES ! > about FS SDKs:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=9841

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=9841

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Rob Ainscough
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Postby Rob Ainscough » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:31 pm

What exactly do you want to develop? Gauges? Full aircraft? Addons?


The SDK is all we have. There currently is not enough documentation in the SDK to seriously develop for Professional Plus, so you will probably spend the first few months researching and testing out how stuff works. Also the documentation is largely inconsistent, partly wrong and stuff is missing, so instead of trusting it you sometimes need to try stuff.


Also there is no real support available. The developers are sporadically answering questions in their spare time in the forum, but other than that you will have to find out everything for yourself pretty much. As almost all deep knowledge about programming for FSX/Prepar3d is considered a company secret you will not get too much help from other developers as well.

Other than that its a lot of fun if you actually succeed in creating something.

One good website is fsdeveloper.com

Have fun!

Rob Ainscough http://www.p3dWiki.com
Prepar3D Forum Global Moderator"

Hmmm... so now they are counting on "us" here at FS Developer for answers !

GaryGB

 

[scruffyduck]

Don
Do you mean the lines as drawn by ADE in the main display or in the Editor. My memory is shaky on this but we did make a change post ADE 1.71 to support the different way that P3D generates custom ground polys. I thought that was for v3. There were very few changes made in ADE 1.75 to support v4 other than providing the folders etc and option to work with v4. There was a change in the decompiler to deal with the MaterialSets for taxi links and runways.

Not sure what you mean by database - if you mean the project file then it effectively unchanged. There is a small change to the file structure to provide hooks for the MaterialSet property I mention above but that is not being compiled at the moment.

I am also trying to get a handle on versions. The recent/current ones:

• ADE 1.71 which was the production version until recently
• ADE 1.7 Beta which does not support P3D v4 but which did have changes to support your revised GP complining
• ADE 1.75 RC1 - the pre production version supporting P3D v4 and
• ADE 1.75 which is the current production version and effectively the same as RC1

 

[Gerald Krutsch]

Gerald, this is not something you did wrong - at least not yet. I can't make it work either.

Don you did not get my point. It's not that I think I did something wrong (it might be), but I can't see any of the GP's. So I tried to reproduce the effect you are talking about.

In the case of Gerald's airport, the ADE apron is much larger than the stock apron. So, with the ADE "scenery" file disabled, you can see portions of the GPs before they disappear "below" the stock apron.

Exactly this I can't reproduce. I can see the new buildings (from the OBJ file) and the stock (and much smaller) apron but I can't see any parts of the GP lines "dissapearing" under it. Therefore I must be doing something else wrong also at my end which could be the missplacing of the textures. If I could even get the lines to show and dissapear under the apron, I would say we have the same effect...

Although I'm sympathetic to a philosophical viewpoint that "Geeks always reserve the right to tinker under the hood", I am also compelled to wonder whether the goal of LM for integrating add-on scenery content into P3D 3.x / 4.x via the XML-based "Add-on" methods that Ed Wilson (aka "WarpD") has been actively advocating here and elsewhere since the 'new' procedure was announced by LM may have some merit behind it.

Gary, I already tried the "usual" method by adding the scenery from within LM but to no awail...

 

[gadgets]

Thanks, Gary, but I don't see how that thread relates to the GP display issue.

Gerald, by ADE "scenery" file I am referring to the file containing the airport itself (which may or may not scenery objects). There's nothing more you need do at the moment.

Jon, I mean the lines on the main ADE display. Other than the extra-wide lines, all aspects of ADE seem OK.

I am using 1.75.6400 RC. Gerald is using the current production version. We're both experiencing the same symptoms - with his file.

For what it's worth, I normally maintain my airports using the FSX mode of ADE and adjust for the specific flightsim version using custom software. (Of course, that means I can't use P3D features, but there's nothing introduced in P3D that I've found I need for my airports.) But, this morning, I compiled my CYYJ with the PV4 version of ADE and still did not have any issues.

By "database", I guess I mean the ADE project file. I doubt the issue has anything to do with the change to allow ADE-GP to compile for PV4.

As I said earlier, since no one else is complaining and I can't duplicate the issue except with Geralds .ad4 file, I suspect the problem lies in his file and that the extra-wide GP lines are a clue. Perhaps his file has somehow been damaged other than in the transition from FSX to PV4 but in a way that ADE doesn't currently recognize.

One final issue that I doubt has anything to do with disappearing GP lines but should be noted. When compiling both Gerald's file and mine with the .ad4 file located outside the ADE project folder, at the completion of the compile, ADE issues an error message to the effect it can't find the .xml file in the PV4 project folder. Nonetheless, the compile completes and all the generated files are in the user-specified destination folder. There seems to be an assumption that the PV4 project folder is always used.

Hope this helps.

Don

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Don:

Assuming you and Gerald are still working in this troubleshooting scenario with a SCASM / ASM compiled GP instead a MDL-based GP (that would otherwise have used Z-Bias and which may have been vulnerable to reported "odd-numbered negative Z-Bias value assignments" or "No Z Write=False" issues), do you think there may be an issue with Gerald's GP-mapped textures having an Alpha channel ?


NOTE: Gerald's add-on scenery package in question (with textures) is here:

https://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxscen&DLID=199206


Some threads which compelled this query:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnhar/2009/02/18/depth-sorting-alpha-blended-objects/

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/prepar3d-v2-z-bias-material.428218/

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6307&t=119770

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6307&t=119419


Also, considering that Kevin Firth resolved other rendering / priority issues with a ADE "_ALT" BGL in P3D by deleting / re-building his Shaders in the thread I originally linked to above:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=125092


...I wondered if one might see a change from doing that ?


Just a speculative- (and as this is IIUC, a SCASM / ASM GP, certainly not 'specular')- consideration on my part.


GaryGB

 

[gadgets]

Gary, FS2002-style .asm GPs are not used for PV4.

Don

 

[GaryGB]

Yes, Don, that was my understanding from what you had stated earlier in this thread:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/gp-and-custom-ground-lines.440977/#post-780529

The FSX version of ground polys will not work in PV4. The grounfd polys must be compiled for PV4.

Don

The OP and my original PM from Gerald contains a link to Gerald's add-on scenery package version 1.0.

I did not find a MDL-based GP in that package thus far; did I miss something in the AVSIM version 1.0 file set ?

https://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxscen&DLID=199206


Maybe I missed seeing something in the current 2-pages of posts, but AFAIK, thus far I have not seen a clear indication that the discussion now involves a MDL-based version of Gerald's GP(s).


IIRC, the only clue that we may now be discussing a 'different' set of files, is this:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/gp-and-custom-ground-lines.440977/#post-780623

My custom scenery folder looks like this:

LRTR-Update 2-0 (main folder) and underneath I have 2 folders Scenery and textures.

In the project compile directory, ADE creates the folder ADE_GP Textures (this is new compared to FSX). I first copied it's content in the texture folder, afterwards did try to put the files and even the entire folder everywhere underneath the main folder. Nothing worked.

Gerald, if you have now created a MDL-based GP since the version 1.0 GP(s), please attach it here in this thread.

GaryGB

 

[Gerald Krutsch]

Gary,

the link you posted is with my project Version 1 for FSX.
My new project Version 2 was in this thread attached as AD4 file (see page 1 at the bottom).

If you take that file and compile it, you will get only standard ADE textures. I've removed my custom DDS textures from the project during the troubleshoot.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Gerald:

Although I do not (yet) have P3Dv4 to test at run time, the new MDL-based GP you have created with the P3Dv4 SDK via a ADE GP feature option, I do have have the P3Dv4 SDK installed; and I intended to examine that new MDL-based GP in MCX.

I prefer to see a P3Dv4 GP *.BGL file that you have personally compiled via ADE, if you would please attach it here.

GaryGB

 

[Gerald Krutsch]

Hi. Noted! Will upload all the compiled files (incl. the GP...BGL) at a later time (am at work now).

Can anybody tell me how the folder structure for V4 scenery has to look like?
In FSX there was a "scenery" and a "texture" folder. The new V4 compiler creates a folder "ADE_GP Textures" in my project. I currently copied all the texture files from "ADE_GP Textures" into the "texture" folder of the scenery package.

Gerald

 

[=rk=]

Also, considering that Kevin Firth resolved other rendering / priority issues with a ADE "_ALT" BGL in P3D by deleting / re-building his Shaders in the thread I originally linked to above:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=125092


...I wondered if one might see a change from doing that ?

This is the actual statement that was quoted:

Don't know why it didn't work for me but I deleted shaders and restarted the sim and ta-da the elevation ALT file works fine.

Kevin himself admits he does not know why it didn't work and it is reasonable to extend he does not know exactly what makes it work. One of the things he stated he did was delete shaders and another thing was restart the sim. He does not report how he discovered the "ADE_ALT" .bgl was not working, he does not say that he neglected to restart the sim after applying the "ADE_ALT" .bgl, this is a natural conclusion, given the circumstance. To make the declaration that "Kevin Firth resolved other rendering / priority issues," one is making the generous assumption that Kevin did restart the sim after applying the "ADE_ALT" .bgl. There may be any number of things he did that he did not report, the most significant thing being restarting the sim, which would apply any number of changes, the least of which rebuilding the shader cache, which is the one thing he remembered to report deleting. From that statement, one can infer only that this procedure might work.
Using the principal of Occam's razor, the statement that a deleted shader cache fixes elevation issues requires more than an anecdotal statement before it is considered fact and since people's attention spans are so incredibly valuable these days, one might wonder what the goal is.

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/gp-and-custom-ground-lines.440977/page-2#post-780768

Hi Don:

Assuming you and Gerald are still working in this troubleshooting scenario with a SCASM / ASM compiled GP instead a MDL-based GP (that would otherwise have used Z-Bias and which may have been vulnerable to reported "odd-numbered negative Z-Bias value assignments" or "No Z Write=False" issues), do you think there may be an issue with Gerald's GP-mapped textures having an Alpha channel ?


NOTE: Gerald's add-on scenery package in question (with textures) is here:

https://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxscen&DLID=199206


Some threads which compelled this query:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/shawnhar/2009/02/18/depth-sorting-alpha-blended-objects/

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/prepar3d-v2-z-bias-material.428218/

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6307&t=119770

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6307&t=119419


Also, considering that Kevin Firth resolved other rendering / priority issues with a ADE "_ALT" BGL in P3D by deleting / re-building his Shaders in the thread I originally linked to above:

http://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6311&t=125092


...I wondered if one might see a change from doing that ?


Just a speculative- (and as this is IIUC, a SCASM / ASM GP, certainly not 'specular')- consideration on my part.


GaryGB

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/gp-and-custom-ground-lines.440977/page-2#post-780858

This is the actual statement that was quoted:

"Don't know why it didn't work for me but I deleted shaders and restarted the sim and ta-da the elevation ALT file works fine."


Kevin himself admits he does not know why it didn't work and it is reasonable to extend he does not know exactly what makes it work. One of the things he stated he did was delete shaders and another thing was restart the sim. He does not report how he discovered the "ADE_ALT" .bgl was not working, he does not say that he neglected to restart the sim after applying the "ADE_ALT" .bgl, this is a natural conclusion, given the circumstance. To make the declaration that "Kevin Firth resolved other rendering / priority issues," one is making the generous assumption that Kevin did restart the sim after applying the "ADE_ALT" .bgl. There may be any number of things he did that he did not report, the most significant thing being restarting the sim, which would apply any number of changes, the least of which rebuilding the shader cache, which is the one thing he remembered to report deleting. From that statement, one can infer only that this procedure might work.
Using the principal of Occam's razor, the statement that a deleted shader cache fixes elevation issues requires more than an anecdotal statement before it is considered fact and since people's attention spans are so incredibly valuable these days, one might wonder what the goal is.

Rick:

My question (in bold text as quoted immediately above) relative to the cited context of preceding links in which it was posted, should not be taken out of that context, and should be interpreted only as worded ...as a question.

It is inappropriate to "speculate" as to what Kevin Firth did- or did- not 'remember' to do.

It is also inappropriate for you to mis-characterize and mis-represent my personal statement quoted above ...in your closing sentence: "the statement that a deleted shader cache fixes elevation issues requires more than an anecdotal statement before it is considered fact".

Please refrain from this pattern of posting behavior which has been a subject of discussion with forum moderators on more than one occasion.

GaryGB

 

[=rk=]

Please refrain from this pattern of posting
GaryGB

Please be kind enough to stay on topic,

behavior which has been a subject of discussion with

thoughtful enough to remain relevant

forum moderators on more than one occasion.

and allow moderators to moderate, thanks so much in advance.

 

[scruffyduck]

and allow moderators to moderate

And we will

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Gerald:

In keeping with this discussion on troubleshooting- and finding a "work-around" for- display of your GPs in P3Dv4, would you please also post here:

* What version of Windows and revision number of DirectX you are using

* What graphics card and display driver version you are using

* What is the video RAM (aka "VRAM") capacity on the graphics card you are using with P3Dv4 installed on that same computer


Thanks for facilitating troubleshooting- and "work-around" for- display of your GPs in P3Dv4 by offering to post a copy of your P3Dv4 MDL-based GPs.

GaryGB