1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

How do I eliminate those darn signs?

Discussion in 'Airport Design General' started by khaos_56k, 26/6/04.

  1. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    I've tried everything I can think of with only one success... and that success excluded the runway, ramps, taxiways... etc... Not good since it was my updated AFCAD layout and not the default!!

    I'm trying to get rid of the runway & taxiway signs in FS9 at a project I'm working on. Increasing the scenery "dimensions" with all excludes selected in FSSC only seems to effect all other default scenery. Placing exclusions on the area of the signs does nothing as well... Placing an exclude directly over the "heart" of the airport location excludes all taxiways, runways and signs so I know the excludes work...

    Anything simple I can do?
  2. bpahe

    bpahe

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    333
    Country:
    sweden
    Hi!

    Perhaps you´ve done this already, but I´d like to suggest that you try ExcBuilder (creates XML exclusions). Make very small excludes that only cover a single sign, then try to pile them all together in a single BGL when compliling.

    /hans
  3. nickw

    nickw Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    28/5/04
    Messages:
    646
    Country:
    ireland
    I feel your pain...

    I wish I could understand ALL the limitations of FS2004 Excludes. Like... if you cannot create a large exlude area as it will effect your effects (even if you have told it not to)... what is that about anyway?

    Grumble Grumble...
  4. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    NickW: Leave it to Microsoft to "improve" their products while we struggle to adapt to new techniques or limitations... This is why I still use the FS2002 SDKs and tools in FS9! I'm not trying to do anything fancy... just shift a runway here, put a light there, place a taxiway over there... I think it's unfortunate that some of the SDKs are either too vague or technical for me to understand sometimes. I have a short attention span and find it very difficult to sift through pages and pages of SDKs even when the answers I seek may be in the SDK I'm reading.

    bpahe: I have tried ExcBuilder but I must've overlooked how to create one BGL with numerous exclusions. I even tried copy-n-pasting data for multiple exclusions in the XML "window" with no success... Please tell me I overlooked an instruction or help file that came with the program... Maybe it's my syntax? I did not keep the data from the attempt I am referring to so I'm not sure if I'd be able to remember exactly how I altered the XML. I do remember that ExcBuilder acted as though it was compiling but no BGL was created. Writing and understanding code has never been easy for me... even as "simple" as XML is suppose to be.
  5. nickw

    nickw Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    28/5/04
    Messages:
    646
    Country:
    ireland
    Ken,

    Use FSConnect with ExcBuilder, it is the only way to get it working well :)
  6. bpahe

    bpahe

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    333
    Country:
    sweden
    Ken, hope I´m not fooling you with this;

    The bold part in the example below is just the result of a second exclude, cut-and-pasted into the XML-result of the first exclude. Compiles ok... You work outside of ExcBuilder, so that this tool only produces the XML (text), which you then edit with the normal text-editor in the way posted below. Then compile manually using BGLCOMP. The only "win" in this is that you don´t end up with a load of BGLs, you still have to exclude all unwanted objects one by one...

    And, as noted, use FSConnect together with ExcBuilder, then you just slew around and mark the areas at the same time.

    I´m almost afraid to hit the "Submit..."-button this time, hope I´m not overlooking something! :duck:

    /hans

    Code:
    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <FSData
       version = "9.0"
       xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance'
       xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="bglcomp.xsd" >
       <ExclusionRectangle
            latitudeMinimum = "57.340402556524"
            latitudeMaximum = "57.3404902932026"
            longitudeMinimum = "16.4946955862844"
            longitudeMaximum = "16.4949076584741"
           excludeBeaconObjects = "TRUE"
           excludeGenericBuildingObjects = "TRUE"
           excludeLibraryObjects = "TRUE"
     />
       [B]<ExclusionRectangle
            latitudeMinimum = "57.350059978525"
            latitudeMaximum = "57.3501136900525"
            longitudeMinimum = "16.497275364887"
            longitudeMaximum = "16.4973526566469"
           excludeTaxiwaySignObjects = "TRUE"
     />[/B]
    </FSData>
    
    Compiling;
    With the FS2004 SDK set up right, place the XML-file in the same folder as BGLCOMP.exe and...
    Code:
    C:\BGLCOMP\bglcomp my_file.xml [I]then press enter[/I]
    will result in a "my_file.bgl". Place this in the /scenery-subfolder of your scenery.
  7. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    You have both been a great help...

    ...but I still can't seem to get those signs to disappear. I did as Nick suggested and FSConnect works awesome to get exact location data into ExcBuilder.

    I have before, and quite a few times today, edited the XML just as you've shown, Hans, but those signs remain. I even made a HUGE exclude to encompass the entire airport... everything on the ground was gone except those sign! Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!! I even placed a single exclude on top of one of the signs, using FSConnect and ExcBuilder, and the sign was uneffected. I must admit I'm happy to see I did edit the XML correctly...

    I setup ExcBuilder just as the instructions said so I am using the FS9 SDK BGLcomp.exe and everything seems fine until I go into FS. I know the exclude file is in the right folder... etc... Is is becuse I'm relying on ExcBuilder to compile it and not using BGLComp as with ASM files?? I don't think this is so but... could it be because the areas where the taxiway signs are have more that one type of exclusion selected?? Is there a difference between using the command-line and having WinXP set to compile ASM & XML files with BGLComp with a left-click of my mouse?

    I've never seen such stubborn signs. It'd be nice if they were somehow linked to the intersections of the runways and taxiways or a selectable choice in AFCAD...

    I'm going to keep trying... I (we) will win this "battle"... LOL!!!
  8. Gorchi

    Gorchi

    Joined:
    2/6/04
    Messages:
    152
    Ken,
    by my experience removing runway and taxiway signs was sucessful using FSSC's excludes (because my scenery is compatible with FS2k2 and 2k4) and I placed it on reference point of the airport. You can get reference point from AFCAD2 or SCASM's AFD_link (I think). I guess they all are connected to the reference point of the airport?!
    And for checking what excludes make, remove all BGLs from Your scenery folder and check it out. If they exclude as expected then it might be problem with naming of Your files; Yes You won't believe it but names of BGLs are important in precedence of loading the files!

    I hope this will end Your nightmare :)

    Best regards,
  9. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    So if I name the BGL in a way that would put it alphanumerically before my AF2 file... it'll only remove the default scenery and not my new AFCAD scenery? I'll try that!!

    I have had problems before with the actual names of BGLs. Was kind of frustrating but I dealt with it and scratched my head when renaming worked... LOL!!!

    Thanks for the input!
  10. Jaybird

    Jaybird

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    7
    Hi All..

    I have found excluding of individual default taxiway signs very elusive when using the tools that are 'supposed-to' work; ie the BGLComp SDK rectangular exclude using excludeTaxiwaySignObjects = "TRUE" does not work (for me) to exclude individual (or any of the) signs.

    The following routine seems to work fine, although it requires:

    1) Using Winfried Orthmann's NewBGLAnalyze.exe or similar program, decompile the applicable FS9 AP******.bgl file to yield an XML (text) file. The applicable 'AP' prefixed file is easily located using RhumbaFlappy's TCalc2004 utility.

    2) Excerpt (only) the section containing the airport-in-work's runways/taxiways/parkings/taxisigns, etc, by copying/pasteing the applicable excerpted portion to a new notepad .txt file.

    3) Revise this 'excerpted' XML code to comment-out code for the individual unwanted taxi sign(s), as in the example:

    <!-- exclude this sign
    <TaxiwaySign
    lat="Your Lat Goes Here"
    lon="Your Lon Goes Here"
    heading="Your heading for the sign goes here"
    size="SIZE3"
    justification="LEFT"
    label="l[A]m36"/> -->


    Note: Another option you might want to consider is simply revising the context of the label for the taxiway sign, ie change: label="l[A]m36"/> to read: label="l[A]m19"/>, which should change the taxiway A to rwy 36 sign to read taxiway A to rwy 19. In this case you would not use the <!-- exclude this sign --> comment-out syntax. You can easily see how this concept can be applied to change other thngs like runway/taxiway choice of textures, correcting MS default errors in taxiway placements, etc.

    4) After doing the desired revisions to the excerpted code, you must apply the typical XML header to the top of the revised XML code text file, ie:

    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <FSData
    version = "9.0" xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance'
    xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="bglcomp.xsd" >
    and add the: </FSData> tag at the end of the revised code listing.

    5) I then manually compile the excerpted/revised file by dragging it's text file's icon on top of the bglcomp.exe icon. Unless there are syntax errors in your revisions, a new bgl file is produced which is then moved to the active scenery folder in FS9. In case of errors, the 'cmd.exe' window can be used to troubleshoot them, however, if the standard XML rules are followed, you shouldn't need to use that troubleshooting method.

    6) Important: You must 'software delete' all the original airport's runway/taxiway/parking system, else FS9 will end-up still displaying the original configuration with the unwanted taxi sign(s) (or whatever else you decided to edit/revise).

    I use SceneGenX version 11 to do this 'software' deletion AND ALSO to apply new Runways. The new runways seem to be required to assure that runways are visible in the sim. However, the visual runways now appearing will take-on the attributes of the runways in the excerpted code -- so if you revised textures or other physical changes to the rwys/taxiways/parkings/taxisigns in the excerpted/revised code, your revisions will appear in the sim instead of the native FS9 default attributes for the airport.

    I think this method ends up being a clean way to not only delete taxi signs but also to 'patch-out' other undesired things MS did in their haste to quickly mass-produce all the world's airports -- BTW, thanks MS, for the basic FS9 platform. Also, I think the AFCAD software does essentially the same thing as this routine, automating the processes?

    J.R.
  11. robertpear

    robertpear

    Joined:
    29/6/04
    Messages:
    6
    Where to look for the taxi sign origin

    I have found the sign to exclude on three airports and all were at the north end of the airports main runway. Most airports have a taxiway called "A". I go to the end of this taxiway and exclude the signs at that end. check buy runing FS. If all the signs go away, great. At this point shrink the exclude unitl it doesn't interfear with the other sceenery objects. If the signs are still there try the other end of the runway. I suspect this reflects the working habits of the Microsoft designer that did that airport. I suspect the sign were put in using a program like sign generator. I use that program to resign the airport

    The program is CreatSign and its at
    http://www.fsplanet.com/04022004.htm
    Last edited: 30/6/04
  12. arno

    arno Administrator Staff Member FSDevConf team Resource contributor

    Joined:
    28/5/04
    Messages:
    20,579
    Country:
    netherlands
    I think the place you have found by trial and error this way is the reference point of the airport. When you look in AFCAD you will see that this position is marked by a purple cross. Making an exclude around this point should be enough to remove the taxi signs.
  13. robertpear

    robertpear

    Joined:
    29/6/04
    Messages:
    6
    Excluding runway signs

    I'm not excluding the airport ref point. It appears the the stock signs have a ref point of their own. That is what im getting rid of. The program i'm using to create signs is CreatSign. When you use this program it also has its own referance point and if you exclude that all the new signs go away also.

    Give this utility a go. Its real easy to use and uses xml coding.
  14. nickw

    nickw Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    28/5/04
    Messages:
    646
    Country:
    ireland
    Oh Dear God!

    Guys...

    We are really having problems with the excludes at Shannon taking out my effects. Why if you set the effects parameter to FALSE does this still happen? Is there an answer to this?
  15. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    Once again... WOW!!! What a great amount of information and techniques!

    robertpear: I'll definitely check that out. It's always seemed that they were connected to the airport via the airport's reference point but if you're right, and I think you are... YAHOO!

    JayBird: I believe going to the "source" is definitely a way to yank them suckers outa there... but I was hoping for an easier solution. Regardless, whatever method works... that's what I'll do. I have noticed that sometimes a particular method works one time and not another. From what you write... it gives the scenery no choice but to obey! If the signs had moved with the runway and taxiways relabeling them would be an option but... And as far as figuring out which BGL the airport is located in... I have used AFCAD in the past to see the original but had no knowledge of what to do next. Thanks for your major input!

    Arno: I've tried that as well and it did exclude everything... and I mean EVERYTHING. Even my new AFCAD2 file. I hope roberpear's technique works for me since that seems the easiest.

    nickw: Ah... Effects... One day soon I'll tackle those and deal with the same issues!
  16. Jaybird

    Jaybird

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    7
    Hi Ken..

    Yep, I can understand anyone's wanting to do things the quickest, simplest way. I guess that's why we have all these GUI programs to fugure-out :)

    This post is to correct a statement I made in the original where I said new runways should be created for the new, edited runways to appear in the scenery. That was wrong. I thought it was right at the time because of the way a project was 'behaving' but as it turns out the bad behavior was all mine. I had left a SCASM file in the active scenery folder that should not have been left there. -- So forget the part that says new runways should be built to assure that edited/revised runways are visible in the sim. The process is straightforward without need for such a 'band-aid' treatment.

    'Sorry about that'

    J.R.
  17. robertpear

    robertpear

    Joined:
    29/6/04
    Messages:
    6
    excluding signs

    This afternoon I will post some screenshots showing what i did at KPIH and KHRU. I use Airport 188 for the excludes, flatten, roads and 3d objects. AFCAD for runways, aprons, navaids, and AFD. CreatSign is just for signs
  18. robertpear

    robertpear

    Joined:
    29/6/04
    Messages:
    6
    sign exclude screen shots

    Here is the screen shots of what I did at KPIH. I'm using AFW3b188 to do the excludes, roads, and .api placement. I used AFCAD for the runways, Taxiways, and navaids. The signs in both screenshots are done with CreatSign.

    Attached Files:

  19. khaos_56k

    khaos_56k

    Joined:
    3/6/04
    Messages:
    366
    Country:
    us-maryland
    SUCCESS!! I found the "magical" sign, excluded it and all signs disappeared! Easy solution... but all other options are appreciated.

    Thanks to all who've helped me with this "minor" issue.
  20. nickw

    nickw Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    28/5/04
    Messages:
    646
    Country:
    ireland
    Thanks to talking to Ken, I can confirm the following:

    If you exclude the Southern most sign in your scenery, and ONLY that sign, all signs will nicely disappear :)

Share This Page