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Ils Approach

Discussion in 'Airport Design Editor' started by kagazi, 16/12/07.

  1. kagazi

    kagazi

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    ADE Team/Jim V: Good day. Is there a users guide to creating an Ils approach for a new runway in fsx? Sorry if you've already mentioned this 1,000 times in the past, but a link to the discussion would suffice.

    I'm aware of and have used the Ils_GPS approach creator, which is available on avsim, but it appears to be incomplete and ATC will not recognize the Ils runway even after adding an Ils (physically) and using this program for the final approach. ATC still only uses the runway with a visual approach.

    My goal is to create an Ils approach to the new runway 1L/19R at KIAD, which is due to be completed early next year. The existing runway 1L/19R will now be known as 1C/19C. Will I be able to use ADE Home to change the existing runway 1L/19R to 1C/19C and have ATC recognize this new designation with the exisint approach information, or will it also require changes to be made to other files within fsx?

    Thank you for your program and time.

    Kagazi
  2. jvile

    jvile

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    kagazi

    That part is true. The ILS creator is incomplete but on a good start if the designer goes back in and adds some more legs that are missing. He mentions my name in the docs based on post I wrote but I don't know who he is.

    The PRO version will have a complete added utility to ADE that will build the approach (ILS + all type non-precisions) element trees with some limited Transition tags.

    ADE Home at present will allow you to renumber a runway such as 1L/19R to 1C/19C BUT there is a ILS on each end of that runway.

    Two things will have to be done in this case

    1. Add a new runway with a ILS if the new runway is getting them. Now Approach code must be written to tie the Approach that ATC works with to the ILS you add with ADE.

    2. Because the present 1L/19R is being changed to 1C/19C that also requires changing all approach data that ATC is using now to a new set of runway numbers.

    The end result is we change the exsisting Approach code for the Left/right to Center runway and then write all new approach for the new Left/Right runway.

    Sounds confusing but the ADE PRO will automate most this type work when the Airport designer plugs in all the correct data from a current approach plate.

    Always remember, if you add a ILS to a runway with any AFD Utility it is not a ILS that ATC recognizes and will close that runway if weather falls to minimums. ATC does not know the ILS exsit and thinks it is a visual runway.

    So what does a ILS do if you add one to a runway with a Utility?

    Allows the USER PLANE to tune a FREQ and fly a beam. That is all it does and yet for years now airport designers continue to think if thay add a ILS to a runway something magical is going to happen and ATC is going to recognize the new ILS.

    If you can wait a little longer as we move toward Pro Version that would be one choice.

    The other choice is layout the new runway, add the new ILS, taxiway data, change the exsiting runway left/right to Center with ADE etc.

    Now we can break open the exsiting 1L/19R approach code and change it to 1C/19C.

    What will be left is writting all the approach code for the new 1L/19R which can be done with hand edits of XML. That is what ADE PRO is going to do correctly for everyone.

    All my years of post on doing a lot of Approach/Transition work and the "how to's" have been accidently removed for where they were hosted. Rather then spend countless months/Years on making a Tutorial I would rather use that time to help the ADE team automate the process as best we can.

    Questions?
  3. dcmiller58

    dcmiller58

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    Kagazi,

    When ATC gives you the runway assignment before vectoring you to the the final approach fix you have the option to tell ATC to standby and then you can select the new ILS approach to your new runway. You have to select the approach option, not the runway option. Your new ILS approach should be there.

    It works for me that way. Is that what you are doing?

    Derrick
  4. glottis

    glottis

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    kagazi
    And don't forget to change the taxisigns on the rwy you have changed,
    sort of thing i tend to need reminding about when thinking about designs around the airport :)

    Ray
  5. kagazi

    kagazi

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    Jim thanks. I can wait for the pro version. I have the new runway and taxiways based on the latest KIAD D2 Website information. And I understand what you mean by changing the existing Ils code from 1L/19R to the new 1C/19C. This answers my other question. I'll just "fake-it" for now with the Ils bean plus the use of the Ils_GPS creator. It works for the user plane but not the ai.

    Derrick - thanks for your reply. I know the trick you're referring to. I actually read it here on this wonderful WebSource and it's helped me a great deal. I was actually loooking to create an Ils approach that ATC recognized for the ai traffic. It seems as though this ability will be built into the pro version which I very much look forward to.

    Thank you both for your thoughts.

    kagazi
  6. dcmiller58

    dcmiller58

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    I understand, Kagazi. I wasn't thinking in terms of AI aircraft. I have enough difficulty getting my own aircraft to land without incident. :D

    I have learned not to trust the ATC. Two days ago ATC assigned me a 3000 foot runway when I was flying a regional jet! There was a perfectly good 7000 foot runway with ILS running parallel at that airport! We had a bit of a disagreement on that one. ;)

    Good luck.

    Derrick
  7. kagazi

    kagazi

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    Ray, thanks for the reminder...it's amazing how the little details can sometimes pass us by :)

    Derrick, the ATC logic for fsx can sometimes work in mysterious ways and combined with a dysfunctionial airport design, poor frame rate way below your locked delimeter and crowded skies...well, you can say that I've had a lot of fun with it.
  8. scott967

    scott967

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    If I can bring this thread back, for Jim (or anyone else): someone was wanting to update KORD for Rwy 10/28 and a certain AFCAD2 (FS9) file was suggested, and all it did was renumber the runway and runway taxiway. User was wondering why it didn't seem to work and was busy rebuilding his whole scenery.cfg and folder system trying to get it to "take". I looked at the file he downloaded, and the starts were never changed, which is why he could never select it in the go to airport. I tried to point out that just changing the runway desig in AFCAD wasn't enough, but for what ever reason wasn't believed, so I left it at that. So I figured, play around with it myself, see what happens. So I did the starts and taxisigns, edited the approaches, and renamed the ILS systems and it all seems to work, except the GPS airport frequency page still shows the old ILS 9R and 27L in the list. Is there any way to change that? btw it seems like there are about 25 or so separate taxisign scenery objects, containing from 2 to about 26 signs each and finding the right sets to exclude was a bit of work. I didn't want to knock out them all since I was only interested in the few along the runway affected.

    scott s.
    .
  9. jvile

    jvile

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    Scott

    When using AFCAD that can be troublesome to get reset. AFCAD reads and locks all default NAVAIDS by design so when trying to renumber a runway that has a Localizer freq does not always work without a step process of some trickery.

    Two things can happen, AFCAD did not get the Base/Recip Localizer Ident code set correct in the XML or the GPS is seeing a code problem and went back to the root bgl to display the freq page.

    If the GS symbol as seen with AFCAD is turned by 90 degree from the runway heading that tells me the IDENTS may not be set correctly as a quick check.

    When you change a runway number using AFCAD that has a Localizer it disassociates that Localizer from the runway. You have to trick AFCAD and Go to the INSERT MENU and add a new ILS 10/28 giving it all the same data as the old runway/Localizer so this can be added to the Runway record in XML. AFCAD will then allow a fake delete of the localizer still nesting with the 09/27 prior to a compile.

    If it all latches together on a compile, when you reopen AFCAD in the NAVAID list it will show a correct 10/28 ILS no 09/27 Localizer/ILS. Even the name like "ILS/DME 27R" MUST BE IDENTICAL as what is in the root so FS knows what is being changed.

    I find it a lot easier to use AFCAD to reset all the numbers, starts, lines, etc. then decompile the XML and hand edit the localizer data nesting under the runway record.

    Now copy ALL Approach data from the root into a XML (not the AFCAD bgl) with the DeleteAll= and change any 9/27's to 10/28's

    In the end when all the data aligns correctly between multiple XML's the GPS receiver freq page will display the correct runways. (see my FS9 EHAM, KMIA, KIAH, KMCO, KDEN, etc.)

    It takes 2 bgl's to renumber a runway and change Localizers/Approach code if AFCAD/AFX is used. Hand edit only takes one bgl but if someone opens that bgl with AFCAD/AFX it will flush out all the approach code.


    Runway signs ar large airpots are referenced in groups. We have 2 choices, Exclude the entire airport boundrary and copy all signs into the approach XML making changes to runways/taxiways or try and locate a single reference sign for the group you want to edit.


    ADE Pro version will do everything correct the first time in a single bgl.
  10. irocx

    irocx

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    Is there any word on when this ADE PRO will become available? I would like to add a newly created GPS approach to an airport.
    Meantime, is there any other information available on how to accomplish this task manually.

    Thanks, Kendall
  11. Mace

    Mace

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    Kendall,

    My understanding is that "pro" and "home" versions of ADE were rolled into just one version of ADE. I assume the approach writer feature will be added in at some point.

    For right now, those of you wanting to write approaches will have to use a text editor, which is not half as scary as it sounds. (I am not familiar with this ILS Creator mentioned earlier in this thread)
  12. jvile

    jvile

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    The beta group is testing what we now call the approach mode/airport mode. This is a select window box that puts ADE into the airport mode which is the mode you are using now and the approach mode which puts the ADE GRID into a simulated GPS receiver mode.

    Any ILS added with ADE will automatically add a IAF, FAF and missed approach with a holding pattern. We have that working now in the beta version but continue to write additional code for a interface so the designer can write any type approach by filling in the boxes based on a selectable choice.

    We also want to be sure that designers will have the ability to create LDA, IGS, and curved type approaches (such as the IGS 13 Kai Tak I did for 9Dragons and FlyTampa) when high terrain exist on final.

    We debated on wheather to release the approach mode before Jon went on vacation or wait until he comes back. The group decided to wait until Jon returns before releasing this new feature since it is a major update for ADE. This also is giving us time to work out some of the minor bugs that always seem to creep in somehow.

    I think it was Mace that requested the approach mode resemble the approach page of the GPS receiver so that is the direction Jon went in for the GRID layout.
  13. SWRPRT120

    SWRPRT120

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    Ils Set-up Help!

    not to be off topic a bit but, when i put an ILS on a runway (all done correctly). i make a test and it makes me "overshoot" it rather then on the start of the runway. i may be doing something wrong, but im very fammiliar and have done this succesfully on the "FS PLANNER". any FYI's would be nice!

    -thx
  14. jvile

    jvile

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    You must move the small green triangle (drag/drop) back toward the start of the runway. This is the Glideslope and if not positioned properly (about 1000 ft down the runway) your plane will land long. The green symbol should be about where the touchdown marks on the runway are located.
  15. SWRPRT120

    SWRPRT120

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    thanks now it should work.
  16. Mace

    Mace

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    You will see the same thing at some stock airports. One example is KDFW 18R's gildeslope.

    I am in the (slow) process of fixing this at DFW. Maybe now that the Christmas season is over I will have time to finish that and other projects I have going.

    At DFW this happened because they lengthened that runway, and FSX navdata is several years old now, so the GS is now mislocated--it is in correct position for the old runway length, but not the new runway.

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