1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Military Ramps

Discussion in 'Airport Design Editor' started by Bob Keeshan, 16/12/07.

  1. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    How do military ramps work differently than GA ramps?

    I take it that you won't see military aircraft using these unless you have them as aircraft add-ons? There is an ANG wing at an airport I'm working on. If I have, for example, an f-16 add-on aircraft, will that aircraft only use the military ramps?

    I did notice an Airbus was using the military ramps too. So, how does FSX or ADE treat military ramps differently than GA ramps?

    Thank you.

    BK
  2. Golf-HotelDelta

    Golf-HotelDelta

    Joined:
    20/12/04
    Messages:
    9,981
    Country:
    unitedkingdom
    Unless you have added parking codes to your parking spots, any aircraft with a half wing span less than the parking spot radius will park there.

    George
  3. rfields

    rfields

    Joined:
    29/9/06
    Messages:
    823
    Country:
    us-arkansas
    Military spots, GA spots and Cargo spots are all parking type RAMP

    You can refine the atc_parking_types code with CARGO, MIL_COMBAT or MIL_CARGO - but they will still be ramp spots for overflow aircraft.

    There is no way to EXCLUDE aircraft from a parking spot if the aircraft is smaller than the parking spot. Only to make it a less preferrable spot for that aircraft.

    But the rule of adding parking to airports is that the airport must not be designed to match the real world.

    It must be designed to match your AI flight plans.

    If you have aircraft parking in the wrong area - you haven't put in enough parking for the AI traffic on your computer.

    Also, if you want to setup the nice pretty lines on the ramp for drive through parking - expect your AI aircraft to not follow your planned setup.
  4. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    This is interesting. So, how does one specify that an airport is a military-only airport? It doesn't sound like that is possible. However, I would think that MSFS would have something that tells it that non-military aircraft aren't allow to land/park at the airport.
  5. scruffyduck

    scruffyduck Administrator Staff Member FSDevConf team Resource contributor

    Joined:
    17/9/05
    Messages:
    25,788
    Country:
    wales
    Presumably if all the AI flight plans for the airport in question involve military aircraft then no other type will arrive and depart.............
  6. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    If you want a mixture of both Military and Civil AI Planes at the same airport then I suggest downloading my KSAV at

    http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxafcad&DLID=103334

    Open with ADE and study the parking codes/radius size in each Military parking spot vs the Parking of GA and Airliners.

    Like Reggie says, you must have enough parking (plus overflow) of each available so a cascade effect does not start to happen.

    To force a type plane into a spot you must also add a entry into each planes aircrfaft.cfg

    Several examples for the Military at KSAV that park properly based on halfwing span


    title=McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing DC-10 AI_USAF
    atc_parking_types=GATE
    atc_parking_codes=M002

    title=Lockheed C-130E Hercules Camoflage
    atc_parking_types=Mil_Cargo
    atc_parking_codes=M003


    Several examples for the Airliners at KSAV that park properly based on half wingspan

    title=Boeing 737-700 AI_DAL_aia
    atc_parking_types=GATE
    atc_parking_codes=DAL

    title=Airbus A320-200 AI_USA_NC_aie
    atc_parking_types=GATE
    atc_parking_codes=USA


    So you match a Parking Spot radius to the Half wingspan
    Set a parking type/code and have some overflow
    Add a few more parking spots so no cascading begins. It only takes one wrong type plane to park where it should not to cascade the whole airport at of whack.
  7. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    Jim,

    Thanks again for your help with this. So, if I was creating parking for F-16s that have a wingspan of 32ft 8in, I would create a military_combat ramp with a radius of 17 ft. I would also need to make changes to the F-16 aircraft file to also limit their parking ability to military parking.

    Thanks.

    BK
  8. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    Lets see, 32ft 8in is what the wingspan should be in the F-16 aircraft.cfg file correct?

    divide by half gives us 16.4 converted to Meters is 4.99872.

    We normally roundup to the whole meter value. For testing I would set the parking spot to 5.1 - 5.5 Meter

    Type Parking Spot will be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

    Down arrow on All Airlines list in the parking spot property window and go toward the bottom and find Mil F16. Highlight that line and hit the "+" button to the right which will set the parking Code to F16 in the Codes window.

    Now that gets the parking spot setup in ADE.

    Open your F16 aircraft.cfg and add the 2 lines to the [fltsim.X] sim section for that particular plane

    atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT (matches what ADE has)
    atc_parking_codes=F16 (matches what ADE has)

    When the F-16 lands it starts looking for a parking space that the half wingspan will fit into. It then also looks at the parking codes for both the Parking spot and what you put into the Aircraft.cfg.

    This will tell your AI to park in a RAMP_MIL_COMBAT
    with a parking Code that says the F16 code is a match in 2 places.

    If the parking spot is occupied then the F16 will look for the next one on the list (code more then one parking spot and always give yourself a extra if needed). If none exsit then the F16 starts to cascade looking for anything Meter wise it can park into. If nothing exsit at all the F16 disappears from the runway before it exits.

    If you are flying the F16 as a user plane and no parking space exsit then ATC ground tells you to leave and no parking option is listed in the ATC window. You might get the Fuel Station if you are lucky.
  9. kagazi

    kagazi

    Joined:
    3/10/07
    Messages:
    301
    Country:
    us-virginia
    I've often wondered! I thought it was a fluke that I wasn't offered a parking spot...only an exit runway! :) I knew the part about the ai, it was explained quite nicely by Burkhard Renk and now by you. But the user part is news to me, thank you.

    This forum is an amazing resource, we're lucky to have it.

    kagazi
  10. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    Thank you for landing. Now get on outta here!

    Too funny...
  11. Mace

    Mace

    Joined:
    2/12/06
    Messages:
    997
    Country:
    us-missouri
    A good illustration of this problem (some RAMP type aircraft parking on MIL spots) would be at my KSTL v1.1, in which I, to my chagrin, have a MIL_CARGO spot at 26.1m.

    Do you know what this does/means?

    It means that if you land at my KSTL with a DC-10 or MD-11 (both very common cargo haulers) that have atc_parking_types=CARGO, then you'll get vectored to the MIL_CARGO 26.1m spot, smack dab in the middle of the Missouri Air National Guard apron.

    Not what I wanted.

    I intended that spot for C-130's and similar mil aircraft. What you (or I) would need to do to fix, would be to set up a CARGO type parking spot of 26.1m up in the St. Louis Cargo apron. Or alternatively change the mil spot to a radius away from DC-10 size. That "should" do it.

    I need to upload an ADE/AFX/FSXPlanner-friendly version so that users can make these mods themselves without destroying <SceneryObjects> and other functionality in the omnibus bgl's I was creating.
  12. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates

    Hey, Jim, I tried this with my F16 (Kirk Olsson version) and I still get directed to general aviation parking. Not quite sure why this is happening.

    Here are the specs on the aircraft from the config file:

    title=VIPER vc
    sim=VIPER
    model=1
    panel=
    sound=
    texture=
    checklists=
    description=F-16 Fighting Falcon ---by Kirk Olsson---
    ui_manufacturer=Lockheed Martin
    ui_type=F-16 viper (USAF)
    ui_variation=Clean (Virtual Cockpit Friendly)
    atc_heavy=0
    atc_id=94
    atc_airline=Air Force
    atc_flight_number=
    atc_type=LOCKHEED
    atc_model=F16
    atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT
    atc_parking_codes=F16


    [I put the last two in based on your comments above]

    I checked the wingspan on this model and it is below:

    [airplane_geometry]
    wing_area= 300.00
    wing_span= 33.00

    I setup the parking for the airport as Type: RAMP_MIL_COMBAT, Radius: 16.99, Codes:F16

    Any thoughts on why I'm not being directed to these spots?
  13. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    Are you flying the F16 or is it a AI Plane? If you are flying the F16 Plane then there are some added steps required to get ATC to park you correctly. But lets first make sure of the following.

    Radius is set to 16.99 ft and not 16.99 Meter correct?

    33 ft Wing Span = 16.5ft rounded to 17ft.

    Parking spot size should be 17ft or 5.18M rounded up to the next whole number of 6.0 Meter. Use settings in ADE and change Meter to Ft (check) and back again (check) to confirm the correct size parking spot.


    What did you use for parking name in the ADE parking spot?
    Last edited: 28/12/07
  14. ugo1

    ugo1

    Joined:
    4/5/07
    Messages:
    28
    Country:
    italy
    Hi

    I'm confused on a parameter in the aircraft.cfg file. The line atc_parking_types= must be:

    1- atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

    or

    2- atc_parking_types=MIL_COMBAT

    Regards

    Ugo
  15. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    Ugo

    It must be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT for Jet type fighter planes and RAMP_MIL_CARGO for other type Military.

    I have never seen a MIL_COMBAT and it is not in the list of the SDK. Do you see it listed somewhere?
  16. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    Jim,

    The radius is set to 16.99 ft. I originally used 17, but for some reason, ADE changes it to either 17.01 or 16.99. I went back and made it larger (20ft), but that didn't seem to make a difference.

    I kept the default name, parking.

    And yes, I was flying the F16 myself to check where ATC would park me.
    Last edited: 28/12/07
  17. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    All PARKING code NAMES and RAMP will always say taxi to General Aviation.

    Only if you use a GATE or GATE_letter will ATC say taxi to Gate. Many Military guys set a Gate_M for military so it sounds more professional then having a DC10 being instructed to taxi to General Aviation.

    Now the next question

    Are you flying the F16 or is it a AI Plane?
  18. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

    Joined:
    2/12/07
    Messages:
    370
    Country:
    unitedstates
    Thanks, I will try this fix tonight. In my case, though, ATC was directing me to a non-military parking spot, or truly general aviation.

    Yes, I was flying the F-16 myself.
    Last edited: 28/12/07
  19. jvile

    jvile

    Joined:
    24/1/05
    Messages:
    8,020
    At this point because you are flying the plane as a User airplane all the rules change. Parking codes in the aircraft.cfg and in ADE are more of a qualifier for AI type planes and not the USER plane. This is not to say we can never park where we want but we have to use some priority coding for ATC to understand we are the User Plane and not a AI plane.

    It would have been nice and we have asked many times for MS to honor a parking for the User plane just like the AI but that has not happened yet.

    I have sent Reggie a PM to come in on this here and give us all the fundamentals on how to force ATC to park a User properly. Reggie has done extensive studies since FS2002 in parking behavior and has defined all the qualifiers for both the AI and User Parking.

    Before anyone else jumps in here and says "well ACES says this or that" let me quote the SDK's.

    These type SDK statements can be very misleading. First they are based on FP's that are generated with the MS TrafficDatabaseBuilder.exe (TDB) compiler and not what everyone uses called TTools designed by Lee Swordy who also gave us AFCAD.

    We can pretty much throw out that rule because even with TDB FP's all qualifiers for parking must be weighted properly for it to work.

    Its the holidays and Reggie spends a lot of time with Family/Grand Children. I am asking you to wait a few days until he is available so I don't say something that contradicts the actual qualifiers that ATC uses.
  20. ugo1

    ugo1

    Joined:
    4/5/07
    Messages:
    28
    Country:
    italy
    I thought that the code to put in the line was unchanged from fs9...........:banghead:

    Thanks for the clarification

    Ugo

Share This Page