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Problematic Parking?

Discussion in 'Airport Design Editor' started by Bob Keeshan, 15/1/08.

  1. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    As I was recently working through the apron layout at an airport, I noticed the GA parking spaces were aligned in a way that might not work in FSX. Based on GE imagery, the parking seems to be layed out in an alternating east/west configuration. But, if AI tries to park this way, how could it get past the other parked aircraft?

    See attached for examples. Has anyone run into this before, and is it a problem? If so, what is a good work-around?

    Also, another question related to the parking tee. How do you get it to show without using a center line for the connecting apron link? I notice that if the apron link doesn't include the center line, the parking tee doesn't show. Or, if I have an apron link connected to both sides of the parking ramp, the tee doesn't show either.
    Last edited: 1/2/08
  2. glottis

    glottis

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    Hi Bob
    try only connecting them all up at the front so they drive out forward, and this will be correct on FS startup,
    which is fine till they land then they will drive in to end up facing the other way......
    making them drive through will obviously cause damage.......
    most aircraft that park like that in real life are pushed there by hand........
    as you correctly said, the tee and oil stain will not show if there is no center line

    Ray
  3. Golf-HotelDelta

    Golf-HotelDelta

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    ... and also add a node very close to the centre of the parking spot to prevent push-back.

    George
  4. jvile

    jvile

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    Bob

    Like Ray says the "T" requires a center line into the parking spot. The width of the "T" is also proportional to the width of the line. If the parking spot line width is 100 ft then the "T" width is way to wide for the GA plane.

    I normally make sure all apron link lines into the parking spots are less then 40 ft so the "T" is proportional in width.

    The oil stain is called from the parking spot. You can have a oil stain without a center line draw. You cannot have a "T" without the center line showing.

    In your second picture the parking spot of each plane only has a "T". This can also be done in FSX using George's post by placing a node inside the parking spot and removing all center lines except the one that draws the "T".
    Last edited: 15/1/08
  5. jvile

    jvile

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    Bob

    To further the discussion on parking there are several different ways of parking planes in a parking spot.

    Both George and Don (gadgets) have done a lot of research in the drive through plumbing design which Don also has a tutorial for this in his AVSIM download of CYYJ 2007 zip.

    FS/ACES designers do things that we don't understand or can we duplicate. Drive through parking for GA type planes does occur in FS but when we try to duplicate the behavior there is always some sort of pushback and turn around which George has a work around for with placing nodes.

    In the following picture is a FS default airport where the AI Planes pull into a GA parking spot and taxing out the same way they pulled in.

    Once again when we try to duplicate this behavior it never works for us so we refer to it as a one off exception. I use that term loosely in that we see what FS can do in our studies and testing but we can't duplicate it exactly without additional trickery of some sort.

    There are only a hand full of airports that FS has coded with a default drive through. Even if we place a parking spot right next to theirs and draw the parking lines exactly as their default parking our plane pushes back with a turn around instead of drive through.

    I have often wondered if the Drive through no pushback that FS can design is part of the Flightplan behavior code written into the Traffic Database Builder compiler. As most know we all use Flightplanes generated with TTools which leaves out many known varibles that TDBB has built in.

    We say no pushback or pushback turns are not honored in FS for AI Planes but we also never study TDBB FP's and a Flightplan starts with a parked airplane and not a AI Plane that is already in taxi mode.


    [​IMG]

    The next set of pictures shows a method of pull in and turn out that Tom Gibson of Cal Classics came up with many years ago. This method will cause a AI plane to pull into the parking spot and make a final hard turn before coming to a stop (olden days of Airline Prop Airplanes parking without Jetways).

    When the AI Plane gets ready to leave the parking spot it does not pushback but makes a turn out that we call the fish hook method.

    Fish hook is based on the line draw on the Apron (last picture)

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    George and Don can probably add a lot more pictures for their research on heli pads and plumbing methods where the AI do not pushback and turn around but I will leave that up to them to explain.
  6. Golf-HotelDelta

    Golf-HotelDelta

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    I have never got the 'hook' method to work in FSX.

    I can create drive-through only by using the plumbing method with the drive-out link connected to the runway start point and the drive-in link connected to the runway exit.

    George
  7. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    So, I tried to have just the T show without the taxi path based on the comments above. It didn't seem to work as suggested. (See attached)
    Last edited: 1/2/08
  8. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    Ray,

    The plot thickens... So I connect the parking ramps in the front instead of the back based on your reco. Still can't figure out how to just show the "T", but that's for another day. Anyway, so while my A/P is parked in the spot, I call for a fuel truck, and because the fuel truck now approaches from the front of the plane due to connecting the parking ramp from the front, it crashes into my plane as it passes by. When I tried the same thing with the apron link connected to the back of the parking ramp, no issues.

    So, either I need to remove the fuel trucks or I need to rethink how I'm plumbing my parking ramps. Attached is how the front plumbing looks in FSX. Not ideal...
    Last edited: 1/2/08
  9. glottis

    glottis

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    Bob
    thats what George is saying........
    now you have them connected at the front try putting another node in the same link, then from that node to the path connecting node delete that center line and that may leave the T by your aircraft as that one will have a center line (the one from the A/C to the first node)
    and of course you've now discovered more issues with fuel trucks and also other support vehicles that visit your spot
    keep at it Bob and you may well crack it or crack yourself in the process :)

    Ray

    BTW, the one you had the extra node was connected in the normal manner
  10. jvile

    jvile

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    Bob

    If all you care about is a visual that the taxi line continues through a parking spot with a "T" that is done with a overlapping node.

    Keep in mind that any Living World animated vehicle that approachs from the front will drive through a wing so it can park behind the plane.

    If you park the User Plane (the plane you are flying) into a Parking Spot backwards and Crash detect is turned on FS will crash when the animated hits your plane.

    The first picture shows 2 "T"'s with a line draw into both bottom and top of the parking spot

    [​IMG]

    The next pictures show how it is done. The top line is not attached to the parking spot but is dragged from top to the center of the parking spot which makes it unconnected.

    This is not drive through but only a visual to get "T"s on the apron.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
  11. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    I guess I'm confused. I tried doing this (attaching apron link to the front of the parking ramp, adding a node, and selecting "no center line" on the link from the new node to the main apron link while keeing the center line from the new node to the parking ramp) and the entire line still shows up.
  12. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    I understand. But, is it possible to just show the "T" without a center line (either from the back or the front of the parking ramp)? In other words, the center line from the apron to the parking ramp would be "off", but by adding a node closer to the parking ramp with center line "on" from that node to the ramp?
  13. jvile

    jvile

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    NO

    The apron link line that attaches to the parking spot MUST HAVE the checkmark in the propery window "checked" that says

    Center Line

    This is what draws the "T" and nothing else.
  14. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    Then will what Ray is saying above work?
    Last edited: 16/1/08
  15. glottis

    glottis

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    Hi Bob
    yes it does work :)
    i tried it last night and i got a tee as your real life pic
    on a 10M small GA spot

    Ray
  16. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    Okay, Ray, last night I tried doing what you're saying, and I kept seeing the center line. What am I doing wrong?

    Can you post your parking diagram so I can see what you did differently?

    Thanks.


    BTW, does the Tee offset have anything to do with this? I usually select 0.82. What should it be?
    Last edited: 16/1/08
  17. glottis

    glottis

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    Sorry Bob
    i cant seem to get the same Tee this morning to take a pic, its 3 times longer and i have the first node almost in the center of the spot!!!
    the only way i can now get the small Tee back is to delete the link from that node to the main path that then gives the small Tee, which is ok if you just want a field full of visuals, no good for AI traffic though, cures the fuel truck problem though as it can not now get to you
    i also used 0.82 and reduced the spot to 6M and i don't think that makes much of a difference, but anything is worth a try

    Ray
  18. jvile

    jvile

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    Bob

    There is only one type of line that will make the "T". That line is called Type PARKING.

    In my picture click on your apron link line and bring up properties. In the properties window that Taxipath is called PARKING. Every single parking spot must have a line that is defined as PARKING. In my picture it is highlighted yellow.

    [​IMG]

    Now it does not matter wheather you have a single node or 100 nodes in the taxipath attached to the parking spot. Only the taxipath that attaches to the parking spot is a type PARKING and draws the "T" if you select the checkmark like I have done.

    [​IMG]

    All the other lines (see the yellow one) are no longer type PARKING but are now taxipath type PATH. A PATH line DOES NOT draw a "T". If a checkmark is missing it will not draw a line on the apron.


    [​IMG]


    If you leave the tee offset at 0.00 then the default "T" will sit under the plane at the center point. The reason for a Tee Offset value is to extend the type PARKING line draw forward so the "T" will match up to the front nose wheel of a plane.

    The 0.82 is FSX default but is not always going to match the nose gear of the type plane that is parking in the parking spot. You have to decide what value to use based on what type AI or User plane is parking. The nose wheel of a Cess 172 is not going to stop on the "T" if you set a value for the Lear Jet nose wheel.

    In summary

    A Parking spot circle has nothing to do with drawing a "T"

    A Taxiway Path Type PATH will not draw a "T"

    A Taxiway Path type PARKING will draw the "T" only if the checkmark exsit in the properties

    A Taxiway Path type Parking into the parking spot circle will always draw a "T" if checkmark exsit BUT if you attach a 2nd Taxiway Path type PARKING leaving the parking spot going out the other end will cancel the "T"
  19. Golf-HotelDelta

    Golf-HotelDelta

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    I didn't add the "T"s but created some very close parking spots. They work fine for taxi-out, but on return the aircraft will face the other way and the wings will overlap:

    [​IMG]

    George
  20. Bob Keeshan

    Bob Keeshan

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    Thank You!

    I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. In the end, I decided to attached the parking path to the front of the parking ramp and keep the center line to the T. In addition, I removed the fuel trucks and added a fuel ramp. This allows both functional GA parking without possible game-ending vehicle crashes.

    Of course, if someone is using the default flight plans for KOSU, crashing into parked aircraft won't be an issue with the plethora of parking now available. However, if someone wanted to use a more realistic flight plan for the airport, most of the parking spots would be full of parked GA planes. I imagine FPS would take a serious hit though, considering there are 120+ parking ramps now.

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