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Question regarding ADE

Discussion in 'Airport Design Editor' started by marc underwood, 18/4/08.

  1. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    I read on this forum that someone had figured out a way to have paralell runways with one being used for take-off and one for landing. The poster mentioned that it could only be done when pro was out and they were going to do a tutorial on the subject,that was about 6 months ago. Now that pro is combined with home ect I don't suppose we can be let in on that secret could we? I swear if that and crosswind runways are possible thru ADE especially pralell runways though...you will have me hooked and singing the praises of ADE forever.
  2. scruffyduck

    scruffyduck Administrator Staff Member FSDevConf team Resource contributor

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    Jim is the guy to answer the question in general. There is cross wind runway support in the next release build of ADE due in the near future :)
  3. jvile

    jvile

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    Like Jon says, my X-wind runway technique is alive and well in the next version of ADE.

    Closing of runways however is not straight forward. You have to evaluate the runway parallel coding that ATC uses. That is not to say it cannot be done but the rules of closing differ from airport to airport.

    There is plenty of help here to give you added evaluations to see what can be done in closing runways in FSX as per the FSX rules.

    FSX uses a Score numbering system that says the highest score is the prefered runway. If we lower the score number enough the runway will close.

    There are certain airports that the score will never lower enough for a runway to close but then certain airport/runways we can get the score to a zero value.

    If by chance you are talking about EGCC that is a 2 parallel runway system where the main Terminal sits off to the side of both runways. The score will never go to zero for either runway. If you are talking about KLAX, KMSP, KATL, etc. then it is possible to lower the score to zero on some of the parallels. One of the scoring factors pertains to, are there more then 2 parallels and does the Main Terminal sit between the parallels which FSX simulates a overlayed airport (2 airports in one).

    Please list the airport you are interested in and we can look at the scoring system.
    Last edited: 18/4/08
  4. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    The airport of my immediate concern is one I have designed from scratch. The terminal does not sit between the runways it is on the south end of the airport boundary. There are two sets of paralell runways and one water runway way off to the west side.
    Runways set for landing and have ILS are 3L,33L,15L,21L.
    Take-off runways are 3R,33R,15R,21R. Each set of runways have about 2,500 feet between them and the tower sits in the diamond patch of terra that the runways form.
    Is there anyway I can ask really really nice and get a complete or incomplete list of what items make the runway score go up and what items make the score go down? Pweeeeese I would love to experiment with this.
    Obviusly for starters I am gonna have to redesign and put the terminals inbetween the runways, if I understand you correctly that the configuration that is current will never work. I will start working on that later on today. Is there a way to physically see the score of the runways? Or is this a scoring system that you came up with to help accomplish this goal?
    Last edited: 18/4/08
  5. jvile

    jvile

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    marc

    We do not have any type utility that does the scoring. The score process used by FSX is internal and certain features that the runway has or does not have affect the score.

    We are looking at a way to possibly add a scoring in the future based on what we have been able to study on the point system.

    In your airport you try to lower the score by deleting certain things for each end of a runway. In ADE you start by closing each end of the runway with different boxs checked and then test. If the score is still high you remove the Start location which affects the takeoff score.

    Takeoff score is also related to the EW of a aircarft and how long the runway is. The shorter the runway vs another parallel runway will lower the score based on what size airplane will use that runway.

    Lowering the Takeoff score is the easy one because usually if you close the takeoff checkmark and remove the Start location the score is low enough to force a AI/user Plane to another parallel runway.

    Lowering the landing score is a little more complex if you have ILS runways with Approach code. The base end of a runway is always a higher score then the reciept end. In some cases the runway has to be flipped so 3L/21R becomes 21R/3L. That way 21R is now the base end if I was trying to close 3L and I have already lowered the score by making it the recip runway.

    For your airport you could experiment and see what will work.
  6. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    ok I think I am getting the drift here. Lemme explain my particuliar situation maybe you can come-up with something I have missed. Ill just discuss normal operations then I can always work backwards/fowards from there.

    The main runways for normal wind direction that ATC is using are the runways 21R/L. Both are 7,000 ft in length, 150 feet wide. Now as I mentioned in above post my tower is in the center but not my terminals. I understand that no matter what I do I have to have terminal in center for this to work, correct?

    If that is correct then lemme tell you what else I got and you can maybe tell me if that sounds good.

    Runway 21R is the runway the ATC is directing all traffic in and out on, no matter what the weather is.( Didnt try changing wind direction just visibility ect.)

    Runway 21R is the runway I have set up for take-off only. It has the landings closed in the checkbox, no ILS and a start postion at the head of 21R. 03L is its opposing runway heading, on that end of the same runway I have it closed for take-off and open for landing with ILS.

    Runway 21L is the runway I want to use for landing. It has ILS, checkbox closed for take-off open for landing. It's opposing end ( 03R ) is checkboxed for take-off only no landing and has no ILS, It does have a start position.

    21L and 03L both my intended landing runways have no start positions.

    Other than the terminal not being in the center, does anything else look bad about this set-up?

    I am wondering ...should I make each runway a dedicated landing or take-off runway both directions? Or is the way I have it set-up so far acceptable? I.E> Both of my left runways are currently set-up for landing, the right runways are set-up for take-off. Oh BTW thanks alot for the responses, just the thought of maybe getting some parallel runways set-up tickles my designer bone.
  7. jvile

    jvile

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    Marc

    It is very hard to understand what your goal attemps are. Words alone is not a visual. In any airport design it is about visual as much as it is about technique. Because you have a home made airport there is no way I have a visual of what will happen. I do not know things like how far is a parking spot from one runway to another runway etc. Only a visual can allow me to see what might be done.

    When designers ask for information about a airport it is normally a FSX stock airport and we have the ability to look at that airport also. A home made airport does not have many of the rules implemented like a stock airport has and it is up to the designer to add certain code if the airport is more then a simple VFR type small airport.

    You do not say if this airport is for User only, AI taffic only or User/AI traffic.

    It appears that you have added ILS's to some runways but you have not said if you wrote approach code /transitions for those ILS's. If all you did was add a ILS to a runway with ADE then that is not doing anything. This affects the way ATC interacts with a runway and request by a designer to close that runway. As long as your weather is VMC the ATC Engine will use a visual set of hardcodes to instruct a User or AI plane to land.

    Many pieces of the overall design of a airport must be in place correctly before you can start asking ATC to stop using that runway. It appears you have built a very large airport but the end result is a VFR airport and no User or AI plane arriving can be on any type FP in control by ATC to use this airport correctly. If you set the airport to IMC conditions then ATC is going to revert to another set of hardcodes in the .dll to force the airplane to land and continue to over ride any type code you have removed or added to raise or lower a score.

    We encourage designers along with the capibilty of ADE to design very complex airports. However if designing a large airport is new to the designer then we also encourage working with small stock airports first in order to help understand how a airport works. There are many parts of a airport that are visual scenery and many parts that fall into the catagory of unseen scenery. Once a airport is working correctly based on the rules of FSX only then can you start changing the rules.

    Many designers of Stock airports enhance a perfectly working airport. In their haste and design they actually destroy some of the rules that FSX uses and their enhanced airport looks real good and a lot of work goes into the airport design but in the end the airport does not work. There are 2 very important aspects of airport design. The visual which is what we see and the non-visual which make it work.

    Designers have to create a goal first on what the airport is going to be used for. Then the airport design must meet that goal in both visual and be able to work as per the rules of the SDK.

    It would help me to say will this or that work if I understand why you are making this home made airport and what it is going to be used for. Just because a airport is designed well does not mean it is usable as per the rules implemented by FSX coding. It also helps if we can see the actual airport in order to know what needs working on for it to remain within all the rules. You cannot change a rule if the rule does not exist.

    Continue to experiment because at this point it is going to be trial and error on your end.

    hope some of this is helpful.
  8. ccartmel

    ccartmel

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    Anything like it anywhere?

    Folks,
    just to throw this into the pot: Would it be practical to use a stock airport with similar characteristics required as a base and examine the code, or even copy and amend the code as the new airport as regards name, ICAO, location etc. Would also need to locate and amend the other associated flattens etc perhaps to make it work?

    May be off beam here but could this also import the rules referred to from the base and transfer them to the customised version?

    Interesting discussion...

    Regards
  9. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    I guess what I was looking for was some more specific information as to what the rules are. It would be very easy for me to say "hey look at this airport and tell me what I need to do to accomplish "X"" , they tell me and I impliment it and it works, but that does not make me understand why or make me any better of a designer. I am obviously not a programmer and cannot write in XML ect. I have to use the tools that folks as yourself design and publish. Over a dozen airports I have tooled with or designed from scratch, they all have worked perfectly MINUS parallel runways or crosswind runways. Both I did not think was possibly using design tools available to the public until I came across that thread and started this one. Reading your last reply you imply you can even write approach codes, another thing I did not know, but most likely has to be done in XML or something beyond my capabilities at present. Although I have learned that by careful use of radios assigned for an airport FSX will guide anything you want to and from anywhere or anything you build.

    Using the information you have given I have almost accomplished true parallel runways. I got traffic on both runways but not exactly perfect. I will eventually figure it out at least what I can do with the tools/knowledge I have. I will get it done eventually :)

    Thank you for the information on some of the things that raise and lower the score that you have given me, it has been most helpful.
  10. jvile

    jvile

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    Charlie

    That would work but not practical. You can duplicate any airport and all associated XML data. You can change the airport header so the new duplicated airport could occupy any part of the world but every single Lat/Lon entry in the XML would have to change also.
  11. jvile

    jvile

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    Marc

    If you are interseted in understand the why's I suggest you read the following

    http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8001
  12. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    Well , I did it :)

    Remembered someones reply to another thread I was in that AFX wrote airports in an "unofficial" way. I have used ADE since it's first version but had switched to AFX cause I spent money on it and it was a bit more user friendly. After battling with trying to make an airport with dedicated parallel runways I decided to try ADE from scratch once again. Still having trouble with getting ADE to flatten with the built in poly so I used KLM and then went to work designing it from scratch in ADE. Within part of one night and part of yesterday I had finished designing, building and testing. As of last night regardless of weather, wind or light I have traffic outbound on one runway, inbound on another and all small general aviation craft landing and departing the center runway. Using the advice you gave and expierimenting some as well as using ADE rather than AFX>( I am convinced this was part of my problem) I really had no trouble at all.

    Definately takes careful planning and measurements to get it right but it really is not all that hard.

    Last night I read the link you gave in your last reply Jim, thank you for sending me that, it answered questions, confirmed what I did know as well as taught me alot and gave me references to use. The logical thought process that you guys did while collaberating was very insightful,helpful and exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again.

    So job well done and now I can apply my knowledge to future projects. I am now an avid ADE supporter, still not as user friendly as your rival but the end result is by far superior. Good job and good work on it guys.

    Couple quick questions....... Earlier in this thread, Jim, you alluded to being able to write approach codes and I alluded that that was probably beyond me. Well guess that would be my next step in overall airport design. Does writting approach code involve inputing fixes ect? Is it something that a layman as myself that learns fast might be able to do/research? Do you know of any links I might find more information on this topic?

    Only about 45 days ago I got co-pilot for FSX, I use this for route planning. I rebuild the airport database and my airport is there but when you go into details it is missing the name of the field. I obviusly have it written down in the airport properties so co-pilot must try and get this information from someplace else. Any ideas on this? The ICAO code KHRA is diplayed but no airport name. Also missing approaches listed but that is tied into my previous question.

    Thanks alot for the help, advice and designing a far superior airport design program.
  13. glottis

    glottis

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    Congratulations Marc :)
    nice to see your persistence paid off
    glad you didn't let it get the better of you
    your experience will surely help others who give up without some experimenting thats how we all learn from each other

    Well done

    Ray
  14. jvile

    jvile

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    Marc

    I am not sure why you are not seeing the name of the airport in the Go To list. Five pieces of information is normally needed and name= should list as the name of the airport


    <Airport
    country="United States"
    state="Georgia"
    city="Athens"
    name="Athens/Epps"
    ident="KAHN"


    We are planning to incorporate a utility in ADE that will write certain approach code for you. In the mean time I will place a template in a seperate post that all you will need to do is use the template and change some of the data to fit your airport that has a new ILS.

    Glad to know you are moving in the correct direction with all your previous issues. It is rewarding when you see the results of your design and that it works the way you want it to.

    Like Ray says, some of us have studied FS9/FSX for years and we still don't have it all down yet with out some trial and error.
  15. marc underwood

    marc underwood

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    The name of my airport shows up in FSX map and flight planner ect. It is with 2 add-ons that it does not.. My Traffic X it only showed the ICAO code and other info (city/country ect), but I was able to edit the airport in my traffic and give it its proper name. The other add-on is co-pilot/easy GPS. All the information is correct except the airport name , instead it has listed (No Name). Co-pilot does a physical search for the airports and obviously it finds it but is missing the name... My Traffic X recieves it's info from doing a airport file dump using sdk traffic tools while in FSX. Once again it gets all the information minus the name. kinda wierd and can't figure that one out at all.

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