Could really use some help...with trees...

gadgets

Resource contributor
#21
This thread has taken an "interesting" turn.

Speaking as someone who spent many years licensing technology, users don't own the scenery and textures contained in Flight Simulator (or Prepar3d); they have simply purchased a right to use them in accordance with the Microsoft's (or LM's) EULA. Any other use constitutes infringement of the rights not expressly granted in the EULA.
In most countries, the fact that a product (e.g., add-on airport scenery) infringes someone's intellectual property rights does not grant a user of that product any special rights vis-à-vis the infringing material. In fact, I think you'll find if a user knowingly re-uses the infringing material in an infringing manner (i.e., other than as set out in the original EULA), he/she is as guilty of infringement as the developer of the infringing product, i.e., the original developer's copyright is still in effect. Further, I think you'll find that should that product's EULA contain a "no commercial use" restriction, users are bound by that restriction irrespective of any infringement.

In other words, users don't get a "free ride" simply because a developer did something wrong; i.e., "two wrongs don't make a right".

On the other hand (not to suggest this is the case here), the original developer rights are sometimes conditioned/diminished by his/her efforts to enforce them (or lack thereof).
Don
 
#22
Don

I would like to use the scenery. It has Microsoft library sceneryobject placement code and textures. If I ask for permission from the Author it still has scenery that belongs to Microsoft. We have always ask users to copy scenery on their end that is not considered global because some call it geo-locked.

What would be the correct course in this situation.
 
#23
Hello Jvile,

Thanks for your long explanation, but I am not talking about Microsoft Library's, Scenery, and Textures, that comes default with the FSX.

I refered to the great job of the Authors creating with Gmax the 3D objects and photorealistic textures (from real photos of the SABE airport and its surroundings that they got); the layout of runways, taxyways, and parkings, etc.

And THIS is exactly what Flyboy admire: the visual realism of SABE Airport and its environment. Do You think that this comes with the FSX?.







Anyway, I want NOT start a discussion. But at least I request that if those objects are used, the 3 authors are mentioned by you in the new readme.txt

Best regards.
Daniel
 
#24
Daniel

Thank you for the response.

You are correct. The airport SABE does not have any FSX library sceneryobjects and textures except for the global type scenery (fire trucks, parked cars, etc.). My impression is the SABE airport is not complete unless the entire city plus the Static objects Library is added and that is what I have done.

I also thought that flyboy was using the city but if he is only using the airport then permission from the Author is in order.
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
#25
Jim, in light of your post immediately above, your earlier question now seems moot. But since I had this response prepared, I'll post it anyway. Perhaps it will help others.

Daniel, we're on the same side here. The new airport scenery items belong to their developer(s). If the EULA says "for personal use only", then in most jurisdictions, that's the only use permitted. Even using "with credit" in a non-personal application would seem to fall outside the bounds. However, any enforcement is up to the developer.

Jim, you ask
What would be the correct course in this situation.
I'm not in a position to dispense legal advice. But, I would suggest that the "un-geo-locking" of stock scenery is, in itself, a technical breach of Microsoft's EULA. Section 6 of the EULA on the Acceleration DVD, Scope of License reads:

"The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. You may not
  • work around any technical limitations in the software;
  • reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the software, except and only to the extent that applicable law expressly permits, despite this limitation;
  • make more copies of the software than specified in this agreement or allowed by applicable law, despite this limitation;
  • publish the software for others to copy;
  • rent, lease or lend the software; or
  • use the software for commercial software hosting services."
The P3D and the SDK EULAs impose similar restrictions.

Now, you and I, and most other add-on developers, have breached some of those terms. We couldn't otherwise create the add-on scenery we do. And Microsoft - at least to date - has tolerated such breaches - probably because it's been good for business. (Such matters have to be treated with a good deal of common sense. Suing for breach is little more than a past-time unless damages can be proven.)

In the case of add-on scenery, an author's copyright only extends to the portion he/she created. (Any work of others legitimately incorporated should be protected according to their developer's EULA. But, unless the author expressly has the right to do otherwise, all he/she can and should do is pass-along the original terms. In any case, the rights of the developer(s) of any incorporated pre-existing property are not extinguished simply because of misuse.) Since the author of the add-on owns whatever he/she created (in some jurisdictions whether or not copyright is expressly claimed) he/she may impose restrictions on the use of that portion and users are obligated to observe them.

So, the simple (though not always practical) answer to your question is: if you want to do something with someone else's property for which you have not been granted rights, ask permission.
Don
 
#26
Ok, is it possible that these two file may be related to the other add-on scenery Bs As x? They are made to work together....


Thanks !
 
#27
Jim & Don:

Thank you for having understood my concern.

Guillermo (Flyboy):

This thread of our Forum may be useful:
http://www.flightsimulatorarg.com.a...f=8&t=2446&hilit=cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL&start=10

The user "ARG16" (aka "Conto") is Pablo Héctor Contouris, the Project Leader of the team "BsAs-X & SABE-X". The suspicious file you mentioned has his initial letters (PHC). He descibe its function, as follow:

"Hola amigo. Ese archivo que retiraste, es la base de SABE, basicamente una textura mas apropiada para el aeropuerto. Si lo ves bien así, ok. Seguramente en invierno veras una linda playa... jeje.
Algunas veces nos pasó, pero erá algun conflicto de escenarios. Yo, si no me falla la memoria, con borrar la carpeta de indices se corregía, pero veo que ya lo hiciste.
Tambien es muy importante el orden de los escenarios, y veo que tambien lo hiciste.
No se me ocurre otra cosa.
Saludos,
Conto"

If You want to erase that file, check if scenery looks good in WINTER and SUMMER; and if the river coast remains realistic.

Good night all.
Daniel
 
#28
Wow... Realty did y mean to open a can of Worms but as my old Man always said, Knowledge Is arrived at by stimulating conversation...
Jim, Don, Daniel....
First off, I love this piece of scenery and believe that SABX & BsAsx are mean to work together. So, when I installed all the beautiful ORBX/FTX products I was really frustrated as I am sure Scruufy can attest to seeing my multiple posts on the tree issue.. Which I and at least Jon believe to be ORBX trees. My goal here was to learn how to dissect the airport and see why I couldn't hide the trees using ADE. In the process, I wanted to play a bit here with the photo realism of the terrain and realized some of the small misalignments throughout the airport... But, had to kill the trees.... Wish they made roundup for FSX.. :).
Anyway, after finding out that I could remove at lest one BGL, I was cautiously happy but worried about the consequences... Daniel, thanks for bringing that up. As far as the authors go, I sent emails to everyone of them about my questions to the email addresses on the readme. No luck.
So at this point, I will try to see how this looks in FSX. But still think there should be a way to correct this somewhere in the coding of one of those files...
I am glad we all got into this because there is a lot that has been learned about copyright infringement and legal use...
I didn't think I was doing anything illegal.
No selling, no money, just want to improve on something that works very well but has some conflict with the big boys ORBX which I am sure have South America on their hit list..... It would be great to be ahead of the game...
I think most of us would agree on that.
Thanks to all of you on this and EVV is still a place for our future pilots to learn with and it would be great that they could use this as well...
Greetings and good night...
Guillermo
 
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#29
For those interested in following this FTX compatibility topic on the Argentinian FS web forum, perhaps these links might prove informative:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.flightsimulatorarg.com.ar/foros/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2446&prev=search

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.flightsimulatorarg.com.ar/foros/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2369&prev=search

https://www.google.com/search?q=http://www.flightsimulatorarg.com.ar/foros/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2369 site:www.flightsimulatorarg.com.ar&biw=1047&bih=524&sa=X&ved=0CCsQrQIoBDAAahUKEwjOueueso_GAhWRTJIKHcymA8c


NOTE: "Google Translate" services do not always correctly work the first time one clicks "Translate this page" in the main search result listing. :pushpin:

To work around this, once the original 'non-translated' page URL is displayed, copy the URL from the browser address field and paste it into Google search again; when the new search result is returned, click the "Translate this page" link, and it is likely that the translated page will then be displayed correctly. :idea:

Hope this helps ! :)

GaryGB
 
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#30
Good Morning Daniel Jim, & Don...
I'm doing a couple of tests with the SABEX (Authors: Pablo Contouris, Marcelo Veneziale & Guillermo Posadas)
By removing the following 2 BGL Files from the scenery folder; cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL & SABE_ADEX_GSP_CVX.bgl
There is som though that by doing so, this might affect the seasons appearance to the overall airport.
The following images are SABEX sans the tow mentioned files that Jim's research thought it could do without... The next test will be with the whole city to see the effects farter East in La Plata and the river itself...

Winter

2015-6-14_11-42-10-123 Winter.jpg


Spring
2015-6-14_11-42-59-74 Spring.jpg


Summer
2015-6-14_11-43-46-55 Summer.jpg


Fall
2015-6-14_11-44-29-215 Fall.jpg


First finding show an obvious difference in the winter and summer with less in the transitions of Fall and Spring...

Will do the other tests later today....
Thanks all of you for help on this..
Guillermo
 
#31
Good Morning Daniel Jim, & Don...
I'm doing a couple of tests with the SABEX (Authors: Pablo Contouris, Marcelo Veneziale & Guillermo Posadas)
By removing the following 2 BGL Files from the scenery folder; cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL & SABE_ADEX_GSP_CVX.bgl
There is som though that by doing so, this might affect the seasons appearance to the overall airport.
The following images are SABEX sans the tow mentioned files that Jim's research thought it could do without... The next test will be with the whole city to see the effects farter East in La Plata and the river itself...

Winter

View attachment 23085

Spring
View attachment 23086

Summer
View attachment 23087

Fall
View attachment 23088

First finding show an obvious difference in the winter and summer with less in the transitions of Fall and Spring...

Will do the other tests later today....
Thanks all of you for help on this..
Guillermo
Just an addendum to my this test, I tried the same season changes eliminating only the cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL file...
I didnt notice any difference.. Now on to the whole Bs As X/ SABE X combo test
 
#32
Ok....
By eliminating only one BGL file, cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL, Unless there is something I am not seeing, There is no effect.
I have added Bs As X to SABE X and taken similar seasonal images with the same noted changes in each image as the ones earlier... Plus, The water has more of a natural darker color to it adding to the realism.

Winter:
View attachment 23092


Spring:
2015-6-14_13-46-6-723.jpg


Summer:
2015-6-14_13-44-46-609.jpg


Fall:
2015-6-14_13-44-3-562.jpg


Now, What my next question is, What does this mysterious "cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL" file do?
Because, the way I have it at this time, there are no trees and the scenery seems to be behaving acordingly...
This scenery to me is excellent.. sans some minor inacuracies to the Sat Maps that I would like to correct given that I get approval from the original Authors.
I will check back and in the meantime, Thanks for all the input and Jim for decompiling the BGL files...
Guillermo
 

Attachments

#33
Now, What my next question is, What does this mysterious "cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL" file do?
In your Terrain SDK is TmfViewer.exe.

Open it and drop the cvx file on the display and you will see what is in that file.

You can right click on the polys to see the vector data.

Search the terrain.cfg for the GUIDs that TmfViewer gives you.

cheers,
Lane
 
#34
Now, What my next question is, What does this mysterious "cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL" file do?
It adds the following 3 Land Class to the airport. I show you this with pictures using TMFViewer in a previous post. The problem with that bgl is it corrupts the airport land class because the authors did not use a poly exclude for the Mask Class Map. They excluded the autogen, Flatten the airport ground then overlayed a park land class to the mask class called Heath Scrub.

Exclude AutoGen|6C0C6528-5CF1-483A-A586-2C905CF2757E
Heath Scrub|658BF667-60FB-4DA3-B199-AAB5D5E297C6
Flatten Mask Class Map ExcludeAutoGen|46BFB3BD-CE68-418E-8112-FEBA17428ACE

When the SABE X Airport was developed another Flatten was added over the airport.

SABE_ADEX_GSP_CVX.bgl which is a flatten

Flatten|47D48287-3ADE-4FC5-8BEC-B6B36901E612|

With these 2 bgl's the airport has

3 flattens, 1 from the default LC, 1 from the cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL and 1 from the SABE_ADEX_GSP_CVX.bgl which is a flatten
2 Exclude autogens, 1 from the default LC and 1 from the cvxPHC_BASE_KML.BGL
1 Mask Class Map which was never excluded
1 heath scub

I asked you to delete those 2 bgl's since they both are corrupting the airport ground. Once that is done we can move to make the ground render scenery properly.

there are no trees and the scenery seems to be behaving acordingly...
No the sceney is not behaving because you have not excluded any stock LC and added back additional ploys. You have

2 Flattens
2 Exclude autogens
2 Mask Class Map's

This is a correct behaving scenery.

WINTER
.


The following are all Summer
.

.

.

.
 
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#35
Ok.. Interesting.
I would agree with the summer since it is almost the same as mine with exception that we dont have as much sand....
The winter, we still have green grass, not as much but the winter you show should be a winter that may get snow where everything freezes
How do we follow the rules with the right type of exclusion and get rid of the necessary polygons.?

These are our winter colors....

winter color.jpg
 
#36
In your Terrain SDK is TmfViewer.exe.

Open it and drop the cvx file on the display and you will see what is in that file.

You can right click on the polys to see the vector data.

Search the terrain.cfg for the GUIDs that TmfViewer gives you.

cheers,
Lane
Hi lane... Welcome to the SABEX R&D Hah...
Is this tmfviewer in the SDK folder?
 
#38
Now I guess I have to forget the help from JV because I do not have to offer such things (unless he likes cured new herring more, what Arno?):)
 
#39
What a beautiful pics of Buenos Aires airport (SABE), Jvile !!!
We are waiting for You, with lot of women for dance the "Tango" ;)




(Excuse me the "off topic")
Daniel. :rotfl:
Yes.. Off topic but some things in Argentina a Beautiful...
Daniel.. Any thoughts about what we are trying to do?
What do you think of the seasonal colors....
Guillermo
 
#40
Guillermo:

The seasonal colors looks fine without the suspicious file... ( I don't know really w.t.h. does into the scenery, but I'm sure one goal should be...)

About the colour of the river's water, remember that in reallity is light brown... (Actually I am out of home to see how looks original in my FSX)
In some place of my site there is a texture (for FS2004, but can be converted) with the name "rio_claro.zip".

Greetings all.
Daniel.
 
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