Flight Plan List does not match what I created in the Editor AIFP3

All of my flight plans went well....and then suddenly this problem popped up.
For unknown reasons the Flight Plan that I create in the Editor is saved differently in the Flight Plan List and I can find no rhyme or reason.
If you look at the editor screen shot you can see I scheduled a Departure from KFXE at 17:30 and Arrival at KJAX at 19:10 (the arrival time was automatically calculated by airspeed and distance)
However, in the Flight Plan List, this flight is saving incorrectly.
As you can see, the Flight is saved incorrectly ad nothing I do seems to correct it. Every other flight plan saved correctly with no issues. then suddenly this?

I did notice that the File ref# seems to be odd. But I don't know what it means.

Here is what I'm entering in the Editor........
AIFP3FlightPlanProblem_1.jpg


And this is the madness that is showing in the Flight Plan List......(Blue highlighted line)

AIFP3FlightPlanProblem_2.jpg



Surely I'm just having a moment and doing something wrong ?
Can someone please point out what I'm doing wrong here?
Thanks
 
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gadgets

Resource contributor
It's not clear that you (or AIFP) have done anything wrong. The order of the two legs are reversed (based on time), but this is of no consequence in the sim and is the result of the order you entered/edited things.
 
Does anyone know why the File ref Numbers are reversed in the Editor window?
I added this flight plan exactly as I added all the others yet only this one has reversed File Ref numbers.

Where is the File Ref number coming from?

I have 40 Flight Plans before this one and all the others comply to the formatting I expect. For some reason this one will not.
 
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This is from the manual but I can't make heads or tails of it.
5.6 Weekly Flight Plans - Except when the consolidation option for weekly flight plans is selected (see below), flight plan legs are listed in chronological order, commencing with the leg having the earliest departure based the selected time zone. For easy reference, each leg is numbered, that number appearing at the left-most end of the leg data line. While flight plans in TTools-format text files also have their legs ordered chronologically, there is no requirement that the first leg be the one with the earliest departure. Indeed, often it is not. This creates a potential problem with error reporting. Flight plan error messages report the sequence number of the faulty leg. But, the sequence number of a leg in the text file may not be the same as that assigned when the flight plan is displayed in the editor. Consequently, a file-leg reference number is shown at the right-hand side of the leg data display when it is applicable. Error reports relating to file data will reference this latter number
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
Does anyone know why the File ref Numbers are reversed in the Editor window?
Yes. As I said above, it's the result of the order you entered/edited things. Why are you so concerned? It is of no consequence in the sim. Try it,

Where is the File Ref number coming from?
It is the index of that leg in the FlightPlans.txt file . It is the "sequence number" referred to in the incomprehensible Para 5.6.
 
Thanks Gadgets. I appreciate your efforts to guide me along. But it still doesn't make sense. Why? because like I said, it only happens to a FEW of the entries. Why would 42 entries all be uniform and then entry 42 decide to use a different format? It just doesn't make sense.

I realize it may not affect the flight plan. But it does affect the format in the Flight Plan List. It's a "quirk" with no explanation. As an engineer, I find it hard to accept unexpected functional changes without a reasonable or logical explanation.

Saying the number is the "Index" and it is the "Sequence number" does nothing to explain where they are derived from and any logic or reasoning behind it..

Please don't take my comments personally or incorrectly. it is with a grain of salt and on the edge of humorous that I ponder these things. ;-)
If I never get the answers I'm seeking it won't tip any boats. Just a quirk I was curious about.
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
I appreciate your interest (I too am an engineer) and I can assure you it is logical. But, an explanation as to why which would be quite lengthy. Frankly, I'm too busy on other apps to take the time beyond saying - once again - Flightsim "doesn't care". It is quite normal for flight plan files not to start with the earliest leg. Indeed, there's a feature in AIFP that allows you to do exactly that.

As for Index (actually its "file index", referring to the sequence of legs in the flight plan as saved in the FlightPlans.txt file) vs. "sequence number", simply substitute "file index" for "sequence number" in the user manual and things should become clear.
 
I wonder what possesses the program to suddenly change the format like that? Makes no sense. I may dig into it further....at some point.
Notice in the images above, only the last flight plan formatted that way, even though it was created exactly the same as the others.
Odd.
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
Nothing "possesses the program to suddenly change the format like that". As I said yesterday, its a function of your inputs.
 

tgibson

Resource contributor
What makes no sense to you? The program puts the legs into chronological order, because this is the order that the AI plane will fly the route. This is the most logical way to display the legs of a flight plan. If you wish to see what order you wrote them in, you can refer to the File Ref entry at the right end of each line.
 
Hi all,
Being a Physicist, I feel a little uncomfortable among so many engineers, but I feel I can ad some psychology here. The "problem" discussed here gave me a lot of hard time last night. Seeing that the plan works OK made me drop the issue, temporarily, but not forget it. So, reading among the lines above I suddenly realized a "model" problem: each one models the words by ones abilities, education, profession, etc. So, what I did imagine was that a flight plan is a line with a return. This implies that I expect to see always the legs from first to last airport, and "back". What I learned from Don and Tom, is that I need to model the plan as a clock, not as a rule. It makes sense. But not everyone's sense. As I once been told, we, the mortals, have expectations. As SkyzDalimit, I too, expected the program to reflect my understanding of the AI planning. Thank you for clearing both the reason and the logic.
By the way, I need to say here cause I know no "special" place that the fcdeveloper is probably the best overall forum I know for about +30 years: depth of knowledge, speed and courtesy (although for Romania born Israeli courtesy is a relatively remote term...).
Thank you all, keep healthy!
Florin.
 

tgibson

Resource contributor
Hi again,

Since I've been creating flight plans since FS2002, I might be a bit blind to people who perceive things a bit differently, sorry about that.

Once one realizes that a flight plan is a chronological listing of a single AI aircraft's progress during the specified time period (24 hr, WEEK, etc.) it hopefully makes sense that the most useful order is the chronological one - the order in which the AI aircraft will travel from place to place.

I can see some use to other orders (for example, listing by airport - how many times during the WEEK does this AI aircraft visit KLAX?), but using those would be rare, and can usually be accessed using a different feature (i.e the Timetable feature for examining airport usage).

Take care,
 
Hi all,
The flight plan above does not show in which time zone (UTC or local time) it was created.
Flight plans are always created/calculated according to UTC time.

If a flight plan is created according to local time and then displayed in UTC time, the individual leg(s) may be shifted.
The reverse is also the case.

Maybe this is the reason for the shift of the leg(s).
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
Bushpilot, local time means local time at each airport - which is then converted to UTC. However, the files, both flight plan and traffic, reflects UTC only. What purpose would it serve to remember which was used initially?

While the program also allows you to specify times based on specific time zone, I can't imagine why you would do that. But, you're right, were you to program based on a specific timezone, there is no record of that having been done.

So long as your traffic files generate the traffic they are meant to, what is the basis of your concern that all representations of the flight plans are sequenced identically?
 
It's about the swapped leg(s)?

For example, when I program VFR traffic for a DHC-2 in Alaska, I switch to local time.
Cause I want the Beaver to fly daylight only.
Alaska local time is -9std at UTC time.

My flight plan would be:
AC#1,NII8BC,1%,24Hr,VFR,01:00,01:38,035,R,0000,PAJN,17:00,17:38,025,R,0000,PAGS

If I now look at the flight plan once in UTC time and once in local time, the "File Ref" entries in local time are swapped.
But this does not change the flight plan and its sequence, as already mentioned.

But the theart creator wanted an explanation for the swapped "File Ref" entries.
And this seems to be due to the difference between local and UTC time.

Since the AIFP shows the leg with the earliest time first...
In my example:
UTC time: first leg start 01:00 from PAGS to PAJN


Local time: first leg start 08:00 from PAJN to PAGS
 

gadgets

Resource contributor
Yes, that would cause a swap when expressed in UTC, since 16:00 in Alaska is already early tomorrow in UTC.

Note that you have selected a 24 hr repeat period. So, there's no concept of tomorrow, only today. If you were to change to a weekly repeat, the legs would remain in the order you expect - except for maybe the first and last - where you would then ruin into the concept of "next week"- which doesn't exist either until you program as a multi-week FP.
 
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