Need help in creating engine sounds for TU-154M for FS

#1
Hello!
I am trying to create engine sounds for TU-154M for FS (Aircraft download: http://files.protu-154.org/).
I get the sound files by cutting the sounds from real videos online.
I use the program FS Sound Studio and Cool Edit Pro.

The problem is that I can not know what exactly percent of maximum RPM I am hearing.
For example, I know that the idle thrust is 61%, than I have a sound file that I know is approximately 80%, and then I have a sound file that I know is approximately nominal 92%-95%.
But the rest of the files I can not know exactly and I need to guess everything by my hearing and by comparison to real videos.

* Updated
My last sound file that demonstrates possible takeoff in FS Sound Studio:
www.mediafire.com/listen/dhd8kxa796a1b94/takeoff%282%29.wav
*



Now I use different 9 sound files for internal engine thrusts:

The problem also that it's becomes very dense and complicated to include all of the sounds in so little range.


I also have another problem - some of the sound files are to short.
How can I prolong them to sound good also, because the way I make it with Cool Edit Pro it sounds not good with like a little cut in the play.
Prolong them for example from only 2-3 seconds to 10 seconds? (they are repeated every pass of their length, depending on the pitch).
How to do it? Because when you hear the video on Youtube that I posted you can hear like sound-cut that is disturbing especially when I want to make the sounds accurate and in good quality.


Thank you!
 
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#2
To prolong sounds without the annoying clicks, I usually take the sound then copy and paste it so that it repeats once. I then reverse the second part so that the last sample of the first part's waveform ends identical first sample of the reversed repeat part. Since there is no sharp rise or drop on the wave form there should be no clicks. This method usually works, but sometimes is ineffective and the click is still there or doesn't work because the reversed segment will noticeably reversed. The best program for this is Audacity. I can't help you with the first problem though.
 
#3
To prolong sounds without the annoying clicks, I usually take the sound then copy and paste it so that it repeats once. I then reverse the second part so that the last sample of the first part's waveform ends identical first sample of the reversed repeat part. Since there is no sharp rise or drop on the wave form there should be no clicks. This method usually works, but sometimes is ineffective and the click is still there or doesn't work because the reversed segment will noticeably reversed. The best program for this is Audacity. I can't help you with the first problem though.
Reg757 thank you for the answer but this is the way I use but still it is not good enough.
I use program Cool Edit Pro and it's exactly like Audacity that I also have.

But if you don't mark where exactly the first part ends and the second part starts, it's better to copy the first part to a new project, reverse it, and then copy it to the original project.
That's the way that I do it.



And please tell me another thing: I need startup and shutdown internal sounds.
I found some good quality sounds of that but the problem is the surrounding noises like talking, and other noises.
I know that there is Noise Reduction function in Audacity and Cool Edit Pro but I don't know to use it good.
If I knew the frequency of the engine sounds and for example the frequency of talking, I could maybe cut the surrounding noises of talking, but I don't know maybe it can damage the engine startup and shutdown sounds themselves.

Thank you!
 
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#4
I have tried the noise removal on Audacity and the results are awful. Maybe I don't know what I am doing, but it really isn't a very good method.
 
#5
Your best bet with engine sounds is to have a recording of a constant pitch. Go through it with Audacity and take out any bits that contain speech. Make sure when you join the gap that the amplitude/pitch lines join without creating a cliff edge. Also you need to do that for the beginning and the end of the file. You cannot have a sound bite more than about 3 seconds.
Also be prepared for a final result that is different from the original recording. Do not use exactly the same recording for each engine otherwise it will sound weird.
 
#6
I have tried the noise removal on Audacity and the results are awful. Maybe I don't know what I am doing, but it really isn't a very good method.
I tried some noise reduction in one Shutdown file of Turbine Sound Studios for TU-154M.

In the original file the sound is not clear enough but I succeeded to reduce the bass noise and now it sounds more clear I think.
But I can't get rid of the disturbing wind noises that increases when the engine sound decreases.

The original sound(ShutdownA.wav):
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/lg1fylmloztgu7c/ShutdownA.wav

The reduced noise sound(ShutdownACleared.wav):
www.mediafire.com/listen/8nniolfxpalpya5/ShutdownACleared.wav
 
#7
Your best bet with engine sounds is to have a recording of a constant pitch. Go through it with Audacity and take out any bits that contain speech. Make sure when you join the gap that the amplitude/pitch lines join without creating a cliff edge. Also you need to do that for the beginning and the end of the file. You cannot have a sound bite more than about 3 seconds.
Also be prepared for a final result that is different from the original recording. Do not use exactly the same recording for each engine otherwise it will sound weird.
Of course I always cut the sounds only where the pitch is constant!
How can I remove speech sounds and other surrounding noises from engine shutdown on Youtube for example?
I tried and saw also tutorials for noise reduction but I can't do it right..

Is there a way to remove all the noises from this shutdown at 1:04:29 on the video:
Or the sounds are mixed and cannot be separated?

Thanks!
 
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#9
As far as I know there is no effective way.
The sounds cannot be separated to different channels? Like a channel of speech, a channel of different noises and a channel of the engine sound itself?
Because the problem with the sounds of Turbine Sound Studios I think they were recorded from outside, but manipulated to sound like inside with addition of some bass effects.
The funniest thing is that there even a sound of cough at ~33 seconds.
Of course I can cut the cough but it will have a disturbing click sound and the biggest problem is the noise of the wind.
That's why they are not good enough for me.
 
#10
The sounds cannot be separated to different channels? Like a channel of speech, a channel of different noises and a channel of the engine sound itself?
Because the problem with the sounds of Turbine Sound Studios I think they were recorded from outside, but manipulated to sound like inside with addition of some bass effects.
The funniest thing is that there even a sound of cough at ~33 seconds.
Of course I can cut the cough but it will have a disturbing click sound and the biggest problem is the noise of the wind.
That's why they are not good enough for me.
It won't have a disturbing click sound if you cut it properly. That is on each side of the cut the waves must a. be in the same direction and b. start and finish at the same amplitude. If you do that there is no click
 
#11
It won't have a disturbing click sound if you cut it properly. That is on each side of the cut the waves must a. be in the same direction and b. start and finish at the same amplitude. If you do that there is no click
Thank you for the answer!
But can the noises be removed? For example noise of speech or noise of winds?

From what I written above:
Is there a way to remove all the noises from this shutdown at 1:04:29 on the video:
Or the sounds are mixed and cannot be separated?

Thank you!
 
#12
In theory speech can be removed but in practice it rarely works perfectly. So the best option is to snip it out and carefully join up the remaining bits.
Audacity does that very well.
As for your comment regarding shut down. If you set the right pitch curve in the sound.cfg the engines will run down naturally. Don't forget that what passengers hear in the cabin is not the same as heard on the flight deck. I presume you are using FS Sound Studio for your sound.cfg. If not you'll be lucky to get any result that is convincing.
 
#13
I also have another problem - some of the sound files are to short.
How can I prolong them to sound good also, because the way I make it with Cool Edit Pro it sounds not good with like a little cut in the play.
Prolong them for example from only 2-3 seconds to 10 seconds? (they are repeated every pass of their length, depending on the pitch).
How to do it? Because when you hear the video on Youtube that I posted you can hear like sound-cut that is disturbing especially when I want to make the sounds accurate and in good quality.
Hi yoni7343,

To make edits without the clicking sound, you need to zoom into the waveform till you can see the individual cycles of the waveform itself. You want to cut the clips at a point where the waveform at a point called the zero crossing. This is where the waveform line crosses the horizontal line. When you join two clips that are trimmed at zero crossings, you will not get a click sound. Hopefully the image below helps you understand what I'm referring to. Then to polish up the edit, it is best to add a really short equal power crossfade (something along the range of 10-50 milliseconds) between the two, provided that the sound is ok to blend into each other. You should end up with an inaudible edit.

Screen Shot 2015-09-13 at 6.53.33 pm.png


As for noise removal, that amount of noise isn't usually possible to remove. A more practical way, yet still a lot of work, is to recreate the sound by manipulating the normal engine sound to recreate the sound. This would involve manipulating pitch, volume and filtering the sound. You don't always get a good result all the time regardless of the work put in. Sometimes the sound you are trying to get just isn't that easy to make.

Let me know if you have any audio editing related questions and I'll try to help answer them.
 
#14
In theory speech can be removed but in practice it rarely works perfectly. So the best option is to snip it out and carefully join up the remaining bits.
Audacity does that very well.
As for your comment regarding shut down. If you set the right pitch curve in the sound.cfg the engines will run down naturally. Don't forget that what passengers hear in the cabin is not the same as heard on the flight deck. I presume you are using FS Sound Studio for your sound.cfg. If not you'll be lucky to get any result that is convincing.
Thanks, but if I lower the pitch of the idle sound it sounds very bad and not even a little like a real shutdown!
All the planes for FS that I saw until now have independent Startup and Shutdown sound files.
Of course I use FS Sound Studio I written it above.
 
#15
Hi yoni7343,

To make edits without the clicking sound, you need to zoom into the waveform till you can see the individual cycles of the waveform itself. You want to cut the clips at a point where the waveform at a point called the zero crossing. This is where the waveform line crosses the horizontal line. When you join two clips that are trimmed at zero crossings, you will not get a click sound. Hopefully the image below helps you understand what I'm referring to. Then to polish up the edit, it is best to add a really short equal power crossfade (something along the range of 10-50 milliseconds) between the two, provided that the sound is ok to blend into each other. You should end up with an inaudible edit.

View attachment 24383

As for noise removal, that amount of noise isn't usually possible to remove. A more practical way, yet still a lot of work, is to recreate the sound by manipulating the normal engine sound to recreate the sound. This would involve manipulating pitch, volume and filtering the sound. You don't always get a good result all the time regardless of the work put in. Sometimes the sound you are trying to get just isn't that easy to make.

Let me know if you have any audio editing related questions and I'll try to help answer them.
Thank you for the detailed answer!
I cannot use the sound of the thrust itself to create engine Shutdown sounds because when I try to lower the pitch of the idle sound it sounds very weird!
Also I know that any plane for FS has independent Startup and Shutdown sound files.
I just don't get it how to do right the noise cuts or prolong properly the sound files to sound natural.
What I do to prolong the sounds is:
1. Make a new copy of the sound from the original sound.
2. Reverse the copy.
3. Add the reversed copy to the original sound and then the length of the sound is doubled but it not always sounds good.

Or experimenting with tries and fails until I get good result.

But could you cut the surrounding noises from the Shutdown that I gave on the video?
Or it wouldn't sound good?
 
#16
As far as shut down sounds go it worked for me. But after a lot of fiddling. In fact to play the original sound alongside the "sim" sound you would wonder how the sim sound would ever sound correct within the sim. Played by itself outside the sim it no longer bears any relationship to the original sound. Simply taking a slice of the original sound and playing it back in the sim made it sound totally weird!
Also with the RR Conway engines they are bypass engines so in effect two compressor sounds have to be made for each engine. I got away with using the same "base" recording for both but with different pitches. I also misaligned the wave peaks (each sound sample starts at a different position) so that there was no audible repeat every 3 seconds. Doing this also played into my hands in that in real life there is quite a lot of hunting between the four engines. So because of the deliberate misalignment the hunting comes and goes and is never quite the same each time.

Don't get me wrong it was no five minute job! In fact it took a long long time to get a satisfactory result. I also had to incorporate the famous RR Conway roar as full throttle is applied. Watch here as the throttle is advanced to maximum.

And another common problem with a lot of payware and freeware aircraft is the the engine sound can still be heard while in the cruise. So to overcome that the amplitude had to be carefully adjusted so that in cruise the engines are not audible.

If you look here this video demonstrates all my sounds. Some significant modifications have been made since the recording of this video but not to any of the sounds.
 
#17
As far as shut down sounds go it worked for me. But after a lot of fiddling. In fact to play the original sound alongside the "sim" sound you would wonder how the sim sound would ever sound correct within the sim. Played by itself outside the sim it no longer bears any relationship to the original sound. Simply taking a slice of the original sound and playing it back in the sim made it sound totally weird!
Also with the RR Conway engines they are bypass engines so in effect two compressor sounds have to be made for each engine. I got away with using the same "base" recording for both but with different pitches. I also misaligned the wave peaks (each sound sample starts at a different position) so that there was no audible repeat every 3 seconds. Doing this also played into my hands in that in real life there is quite a lot of hunting between the four engines. So because of the deliberate misalignment the hunting comes and goes and is never quite the same each time.

Don't get me wrong it was no five minute job! In fact it took a long long time to get a satisfactory result. I also had to incorporate the famous RR Conway roar as full throttle is applied. Watch here as the throttle is advanced to maximum.

And another common problem with a lot of payware and freeware aircraft is the the engine sound can still be heard while in the cruise. So to overcome that the amplitude had to be carefully adjusted so that in cruise the engines are not audible.

If you look here this video demonstrates all my sounds. Some significant modifications have been made since the recording of this video but not to any of the sounds.
Thanks for this giant answer but I didn't understand.
You succeed to create good engine Shutdown by taking a sound with constant pitch and by decreasing its pitch and volume?
And why you say the engine sound can be heard on cruise - the wind sound get louder and the pitch is increased so the engine can be barely heard, of course quieter then on the ground.
 
#18
You don't have to just reverse the sound. You can use snippets of sounds and join them together if they sound the same but were interrupted by someone talking or other noise. You just need to find parts where the pitch is the same. It takes quite a bit of trial and error there. I haven't tried it with your video clip but that would be I would try first.

As for the shutdown sound, my guess would be that it would be too difficult and the quality of the end result would not be worth the effort of editing out the noise and there are just too much other noise and very often the noise is louder than the engine shutdown. I would try finding a short clean section of the shutdown sound to create a constant pitch of the shutdown and then add a pitching down effect to recreate it from the loop.

You can also try using a different type of pitch down effect. One type of pitch down effect just changes the pitch but keeps the speed of the audio the same. There is another type that often known as a tape stop effect that pitches down the sound and slows it down at the same time. This might help in create the sound of the motor/compressor/blades slowing down as it spins down. I believe audacity has this but I can't remember the exact effect now. I don't have audacity installed at the moment but I'll see if I have the chance to install and find it.
 
#19
You don't have to just reverse the sound. You can use snippets of sounds and join them together if they sound the same but were interrupted by someone talking or other noise. You just need to find parts where the pitch is the same. It takes quite a bit of trial and error there. I haven't tried it with your video clip but that would be I would try first.

As for the shutdown sound, my guess would be that it would be too difficult and the quality of the end result would not be worth the effort of editing out the noise and there are just too much other noise and very often the noise is louder than the engine shutdown. I would try finding a short clean section of the shutdown sound to create a constant pitch of the shutdown and then add a pitching down effect to recreate it from the loop.

You can also try using a different type of pitch down effect. One type of pitch down effect just changes the pitch but keeps the speed of the audio the same. There is another type that often known as a tape stop effect that pitches down the sound and slows it down at the same time. This might help in create the sound of the motor/compressor/blades slowing down as it spins down. I believe audacity has this but I can't remember the exact effect now. I don't have audacity installed at the moment but I'll see if I have the chance to install and find it.
Ah thanks!
But the problem when I lower the pitch so also the speed lowers like you say so it sounds very weird.
I don't think take a section of the engine shutdown and then change it's pitch and volume will be enough...
But how can I find exactly where is a full cycle of a wave of sound?
 
#20
Thanks for this giant answer but I didn't understand.
You succeed to create good engine Shutdown by taking a sound with constant pitch and by decreasing its pitch and volume?
And why you say the engine sound can be heard on cruise - the wind sound get louder and the pitch is increased so the engine can be barely heard, of course quieter then on the ground.
Correct. I started with a constant pitch. I used the sound at full throttle from there I also modified the volume at critical points so that wind noise masked the engine sounds at cruise. You will see both pitch curves go from zero to 100%.
Have a look at these two images. One being the HP compressor and the other the LP compressor.
eng1.jpg

eng2.jpg


In the first image the green line represents the HP compressor. The top half being the volume and the lower the pitch. In the second image the red line represents the LP compressor. Again the top half being volume and the lower the pitch. The red and blue lines in the top image represent background noises at full throttle. In the lower image the green line represents engine vibration during taxi. The blue line is the famous RR Conway roar at full throttle.
Without FS Sound Studio you will have little chance of getting anything right. Even using it it took months of tweaking.
 
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