FSX Output MDL only displays removed textures.

[jrhottel]

Made an object. Then needed a similar object with different textures. Saved old object under new name, modified it and applied new textures. Completely removed all instances and references to old textures. Verified that by viewing export XML file. Yet the output MDL displays the old textures. Viewing the MDL in MDL Tweaker II and ModelConverterX shows that the MDL still has the old textures in addition to the new ones and of course it displays only the old textures.

This seems to be the same problem reported in this thread: http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17053

Is this a real issue? Is there a technique or work around? Do we need to save untextured examples of our projects so that later we can call them up to apply different textures?

Thank you again, I'm very appreciative of advice.

 

[Farfy]

I just made a cube, put a texture on it and made an MDL installed it all good.
Then went back to FSDS same object deleted all the textures and put a new texture on it, made a new MDL and installed it still ok??
Heading out the door, but I mess with this a bit more later.
H_Farfy

 

[Farfy]

I Just did this again and it works ok here.

I am wondering are you perhaps putting the MDL files into a library and perhaps the library is not updating the new MDL??

Could you list the steps that you are using to make your MDL and install them?

H_Farfy.

 

[jpfil]

I think that FSDS keep the last path you writed in Preferences. If you choose a texture elsewhere, it write someting like "copy:xxx.bmp"; the texture look good in FSDS but the path dont follow in FSX. Is it possible, Farfy?

 

[jrhottel]

Thanks for taking a look.

First I'm actually building for FSX but using FS2004 MakeMdl because I'm applying object conditions via MDL Tweaker II. Object conditions can not be applied to FSX MDLs. The MDL and others with different textures appropriate to time of day conditions are turn into a single BGL via LibraryMaker.exe. LibraryMaker.exe comes with Instant Scenery II which I use to actually place the models in FSX. After remaking the offending MDLs from scratch everything worked fine.

Most of that is not relevant. What I had was perfect looking model in FSDS that checked clean of the old textures in the exported XML file. Yet, the MDL, built for FS2004 using MakeMdl, still had the old textures in addition to the new textures in the texture list viewed in MDL Tweaker II and if the process were continued through placing of the model via Instant Scenery II the old textures would be displayed.

I'll try to duplicate the problem myself using a new model to ensure it's not just an issue with the project I was working on.

Thanks

 

[jrhottel]

I ran a test with a new much simpler model. I have verified the problem and I can clarify what's happening.

The re-textured MDL has only the old textures in the texture list as view in MDL TWEAKER II. Again the model was scrubbed of the old texture and that was verified in a output XML file.

So I have verified to problem is not limited to the MDLs I was working on. I'll see if the problem exists when creating the MDL's via FSX MakeMDL or XToMDL.

More to come. Thanks.

 

[jrhottel]

My FSX MakeMDL MDL did not turn out. I'm not sure why, but it's probably unrelated. I guess I've been using XToMDL for my FSX models. Anyway the same problem exists in the MDL made with XToMDL.

I do have a new observation though, this time I haphazardly applied a new test texture. Although the old textures were retained they were moved around. I would assume old textures are applied showing the areas of the texture corresponding to the areas that should have shown on the new texture, if that makes any sense.

In any event, because it is happening with XToMDL as well, and Farfy was not having a problem this may be particular system or setup. We'll see if anyone else can duplicate my experience.

Thanks again.

 

[Farfy]

JP. When you select a texture that is not in the texture folder that FSDS looks at, it makes a copy and puts the new texture into that folder for you, but I do not think this is the problem.

As a rule I do my best to make sure I put the textures into my FSDS texture folder.


Jrhottel.

I think I would try to simplify your working line as simple as possible and slowly add in the other steps to find were to problem is coming from.

First use FSDS to make a BGL of your test object and install it, then re-texture that object making a new BGL and install it. If this doesn’t work then the problem is likely FSDS.

If it works then I would make an MDL and install it with no tweaks and repeat with changes textures, then move on to using mdl tweaker and what ever else you where doing.

And make for sure you have all the texture needed for this object in the correct folders….

(My guess is the library maker is not updating the object)

 

[jrhottel]

I created a BGL of a model with modified textures. BGL was placed directly in a FSX scenery folder with no intermediate steps. The BGL has the same texture problem.

My FSDS default texture file location is set to the FSX scenery texture folder I'm working. The folder is physically in a FSX add-on scenery sub-folder. All textures are kept in this folder at times.

The FSDS-.fsc model files are saved in the FSDS projects folder.

Is there a different file/folder arrangement I should try?

Any other Idea's?

Thanks

 

[Tejal Bernardo]

You can check in Modelconvertex, load a file and look for any missing texture, for this things is very usefull.

 

[jyarddog]

Farfy is better at this than I am, but.... unless I didn't read closely enough- try this-

FSDS saves a copy of the texture you are using. Go to that folder and get rid of it. Now continue your work. FSDS loves to refer back to the texture you use rather than the new one you are working with. ... especially if the texture is of the same name and you modfied it.

example: I have a wall as part of a house I am making. I made a texture called brick-rl. A while later I look at it and think, "Rats! I messed up that brick texture.

I take that texture to my paint program, PSP, Adobe< Gimp- whatever, and I fiddle with it and now it's fine. I change it back to DXT 5 and put it back where I keep my textures.

FSDS will still use the old one. Refer badk to the above paragraph [FSDS saves a copy of....] Bob

 

[jrhottel]

The Fix

With a significant investment of time by Farfy's we have resolved my texture issue. Unfortunately the exact cause of the problem is not clear, it most likely had to do with how I was managing my texture files. We covered a lot of ground and it's going to take me a while to assimilate it all. I'll come back with more lessons learned at some point in the future.

Again the problem was that when I changed a texture on a model then exported it to FSX only the previous texture would show. The exact cause and solution is not clear. I was using 32bit textures when FSDS likes 24bit. The problem was occurring with textures applied to polygons in polygon mode. That is not the simplest way to texture. I had decide that method was more precise when the texture would otherwise be applied over more than one polygon using the part texture method. I'll have to do some more experimentation.

The another major change will be in how I'm managing my textures. I was, at all times, keeping my textures in my Addon Scenery project folder for textures and converting them back and forth from BMP to DDS as required using Texture Doctor. Now I'll have a working folder for textures under FSDS and convert the texture when saving it to the FSX Addon Scenery project folder using Image Tool. I'll be using Mipmaps now as well. Yes, I'm a novice.

There was also, work flow, shortcuts and folder structure advice. Farfy, directed me to the tutorials he has written. They are on his website. I'll be going through them presently.

In conclusion. Farfy has done me an invaluable service and I'll do my best to play it forward.

Thanks

 

[jpfil]

I just had a similar problem with texture; a part remain with a precedent texture version even if the texture itself have been modified. The problem was because some polygons of the part where selected and I did not saw it. I deselected all polygons and the problem disapeared. I dont know how FSDS manage memory to produce the bug.

 

[jyarddog]

Jr- Farfy is one of the best. You can add me to your Skype if you wish. I am more than willing to help out with anything in FSDS. In fact I would love to. If we both run into a problem we can run screaming to Scot (Farfy) <g>

Read my post again just above your last one. That's what FSDS does. If Scott has a trick to slip by this- great. However, I just live with it.

FSDS will read that copy it made and use IT. If you made any change to that texture and kept the same texture name, FSDS will still use the old one. So.... you go to where FSDS is saving that texture (usually where you keep you textures) and delete that old texture of the same name.

Then go back into FSDS and choose and use the new one (of the same name).
ORGANIZATION-
If Farfy is suggesting to you to keep your textures files in a certain place, follow his suggestions. I keep mine in addon scenery but I do not activate it. I do this because it is easy for me to find. I call this folder NewDXT. In it are subfolders with self-explanitory names like- wood, stone & rock, roofing, siding, doors, windows, vehicle parts, metal, misc, etc.

This is where I have FSDS point to for textures. This is where FSDS also saves a copy of what I use.

I also keep an mdl folder in addon scenery but not activated. This is where I keep my mdl made from FSDS so I can easily grab one to include in a library.

Farfy likes to use bgl's directly instead of mdl's. We've gone around and around about that. I prefer to use the library method. Farfy does otherwise and has valid reasons for doing as he does. I have no argument against it. I'm just stuck in my ways. It works well for me.

Some time ago I could not make a car or truck to save my soul. With the help of others and Farfy I made vehicles like this Ford truck I made. See attachment. You're going to have a ball with FSDS and other programs and the helpfull guys here. Arno, Scruffyducky Ruhmbaflappy, golf-hotel-delta, Robystar, jpfil, Tejal, Hcornea, Tgibson, and so many others here. Skype- jyarddog Bob

 

[jyarddog]

Sorry to intrude again- I forgot to mention. Texture docotr is a fine program. I use and many of us also use DXTBMP by Martin.

We keep textures as DXT - usually DXT5. When I need to modify one of these puppies I change it to 32 bit in dxtbmp then I go fuss with it in PSP (my version can't see dxt's) then after saving I go back to dxtbmp and change it back to dxt5.

FSDS as yet cannot use dds but can (in properties) change bmp to dds automatically if you choose to do that.

In the future FSDS is supposed to be able to use dds in the program itself, but we are all waiting... and waiting. <g> I'll stop now before Farfy tells me to go stand in a corner. hahahaha Bob

 

[jrhottel]

Bob,

Good to meet you! Rest assured I'll have more questions. I'm pretty foggy on the file formats. I was using DTX5 for everything. From Scott, I gather DTX1 is best if you have no alpha channels. If you do have alpha channels use DTX3 and I think DTX5 for multiple channels.

Actually, I'm at a complete loss as to what a alpha channel is, however I've just started a Photoshop class and I'm sure I'll learn all about them.

When and why to change between 24bit and 32bit file is a question I have.

I have also wondered about resolution, pixels per inch, for FSX textures. My camera turns out 170dpi, internet images seem to be 72dpi, for some reason I started making my texture at 200dpi, and somewhere I found a FSX texture at 300dpi. Guessing higher dpi is better assuming you start with a higher dpi image. What does FSX like, is there a limit, does FSX work at a fixed dpi? I don't need an answer. I've actually cruised this forum to figure that out and not had any luck. A suggestion as to where I might look to find out might be even more educational.

Anyway, I'll add you to my Skype contacts.

John

 

[jyarddog]

John- I will post my e-mail as a private message (pm) to you. I trust all here but ya never know if some hacker is lurking around. <g>

Alpha channel has to do with transparency. dxt1 is ok for transparency if there is one color or very few colors involved in your bmp. dxt 3 is ok dxt5 is best.
dds is even better. I heard dds is dxt5, but I think it is something a bit different. Someone here will probably discuss that. Get Martin's dxtbmp (free btw) and e-mail him. He can discuss all of those!

24 bit or 32 bit.You will get a warning in FSDS about 24 bit- ignore. Only time I worry about all this is changing a dxt to the 32 bit instead of 24 when I am modifying it in PSP. Then I change it back to dxt.

Don't drop to 16 bit. I think those with Acceleration can't see those. Funny- When you change back to dxt the menu on top will say 16 bit but this pertains only to individual colors. Not to worry. I talked with Martin- he straightened me out on it. I still don't fully understand, but I know not to worry.

Pixels..... If you are grabbing a picture off the net or from your camera try to get as sharp a pic as you can. Bob