PBR dymnamic reflection quality and dynamic light interaction

[mole_man99]

I have been making some objects and applying PBR materials. I have noticed some oddities that may be me or P3D. Wondering what you think. Is it known issue, or worth asking LM about?

Simple test objects used. In these scenes, the PBR effects are by using material editior in MCX, no texture maps.

Issue 1. Dynamic reflection setting
Set to medium, the colours of the ground reflect in the objects

Set higher than medium, the ground always reflects almost black

Issue 2. Reflection quality on flat plane.
As you can see in the image above, the reflection in flat surfaces seems to be much lower quality than curved surface. The mesh of the cube is as dense as the mesh of the sphere. Maybe this is just the best quality P3D can do and the sphere hides the low quality due to the distortion?
The cube has soften edge applied to see if it helped. It does at the edge, a bit.

Issue 3. Dynamic light
With 1.0 set for metal, dynamic light does not seem to effect the object. Maybe P3d just can't handle reflecting the lit objects at night. You would expect to see the ground and other lit objects around it in the reflection? So if you want a smooth metal surface by day, you just have to live with it being black at night?

 

[=rk=]

Mispost.

 

[=rk=]

I'd eliminate any possibility that this condition is unique to your system. Also, it seems like I have significantly different interpretations of events and consequences, to me this implies flawed logic.

Set higher than medium, the ground always reflects almost black

I do not interpret a black, as in "blank," reflection. I see a shadow, reflected back onto itself and possibly causing a feedback loop, as the render attempts to update the PBR, based in it's reflection of it's own material properties. This is not an assertion, it is an interpretation and I cite the presence of what appears to be a circular, cropped and distorted image of the shadowed ground polygon. I also see evidence of this "distorted" rendering in the cube model.

So if you want a smooth metal surface by day
View attachment 49678

I believe this to be a premature conclusion. The image you link is the consequence of a very specific test circumstance and on that basis, bears further scrutiny. No one is going to place a shiny metal object on the tarmac, as a scenery object and leave it. I am not challenging to be proven wrong, I am saying that you pushed the software to the edge of it's functionality and got a result to support your assertion. Also, there are several ways to make textures render fundamentally different, based on the night render.

you just have to live with it being black at night?

For the record, I have used the PBR metallic material texture feature, I did it with an exaggeration of the main texture and I saw no black, or blank, polygons on the model, at night.

Lastly, these are all very basic tests. I applaud your determination to quantify and master these apparent anomalies. I believe, as a basis of investigation, you would want to assume LM performed all of these, or very similar tests, in order to help you understand what is different about your investigation, in relation to the LM development process for the PBR materials.

 

[mole_man99]

The shiny metal was extreme to demonstrate. Using substance painter to set up some aluminium texture, I was getting a lovely effect, until I tried the object at night (the one I am actually working, not these). It was black at night under dynamic lights. Substance painter material was using 100% metalic, and about 25% smoothness. Much fiddling to use less metalic but more smoothness to get a similar result, and I can now at least see light on the object.

I can't resolve the dark ground dynamic reflection when setting higher than medium.

 

[mole_man99]

Got there in the end, I think. Less metal effect and more smothness to get reflective surface desired seems to give a better result in P3d engine. Low poly containers and trolleys.

 

[Pyscen]

Hello....

Some of the screenshots above remind me of what I was experiencing 4 to 5 mths ago (not sure on the exact months)... the cause was a faulty graphics card (or RAM of the graphics card - lack of RAM). To confirm this we would need to see this scenery - like was done with the shadows test.

 

[mole_man99]

Have done a bit more investigating. I have set up test objects at KPMD default. Added the files to the shadow test area. Updated archive link below. You need to add dynamic lights to effects folder. If you have my KBUR scenery, you have the dynamic lights files already, so can ignore.
www.darkanvil.net/fs9/KPMD PBR test.zip

Start a flight from KPMD rnwy 25. 4 sets of objects are to left of runway with varying settings for metalic and smoothness, as in shot below. Dynamic lights placed overhead to test night lighting.

Tests done on higher end machine with 1080ti and lots of RAM/VRAM headroom

Black object at night if full metalic is used

Ground reflection not great, especially over groundplanes with settings above medium. Medium or below, they all reflect as in the non groundplane image.

I guess it is just the way PBR is implemented. Not a fault as such, but something to consider when designing PBR objects and scenery. Texture mapped objects have same issue as these objects using only diffuse.

 

[Pyscen]

Hello...

I have looked at this as well now... As mentioned in the shadow thread, this could be due to lack of textures [such as metallic, albedo, emissive and/ or bump (normal) maps], overloading the P3D shader. This anomaly could be also be caused how the colors etc were created within Substance Painter. Was the trolley created in the same fashion, as in no texture maps?

I want to point out... Did you mean "Diffuse" or "Albedo" in the above statement, "Texture mapped objects have same issue as these objects using only diffuse."? For the newbies out there, let's try not to use "Diffuse" and "Albedo" interchangeable because they are not the same.

 

[mole_man99]

When I say diffuse, I mean just a colour value, no texture map attached. When I say texture mapped, I mean an Albedo map is attached to the texture channel.

The black ground shadow appears on objects with high metalic effect, either diffuse colour only objects like the sphere above which has no textures attached (settings for metal and smoothness made in MCX texture window), or texture mapped objects with the information stored in metalic texture file.

It does not matter if textures are made via substance painter or photoshop. If you have high metalic value you will get dark reflection from PBR ground. light reflection from normal groundplane, and middle reflection from ground without a plane.

Groundplanes are made with MCX ground polygon wizard. Maybe that has a hand in this, but I doubt it.

For me I find, the higher the metal effect, the blacker the shadow from ground, if dynamic reflection settings are above medium. Set to medium, and it goes away.

Thanks for all the efforts. I am pretty certain now this and the jagged shadows is just shorcoming of the current P3D PBR shading logic, and looking at their track record, LM will continue to improve it.

 

[Delta-Hotel-Simulations]

I´ve tested the files and these are my results. My PBR rotorhead is blurred due project status. Dynamic Reflections set to Medium shadow quality is also medium.

 

[Pyscen]

When I say diffuse, I mean just a colour value, no texture map attached. When I say texture mapped, I mean an Albedo map is attached to the texture channel.

Thanks, for taking the time to explain what you meant by "Diffuse" in this case.

It does not matter if textures are made via substance painter or photoshop. If you have high metalic value you will get dark reflection from PBR ground. light reflection from normal groundplane, and middle reflection from ground without a plane. Groundplanes are made with MCX ground polygon wizard. Maybe that has a hand in this, but I doubt it.

For me I find, the higher the metal effect, the blacker the shadow from ground, if dynamic reflection settings are above medium. Set to medium, and it goes away.

Let me be clear... I wasn't suggesting that Substance Painter (or any other Photo Editor, such as Photoshop or GIMP), is what caused the anomalies. I was stating that the way in which the textures were combined (programmed within Substance Painter) could have been the cause. We haven't seen any textured based models during testing, we can't say that it happens in both cases (I'm not suggesting that you haven't though). I asked though if the trolley "textures" were made with Substance Painter or not. Concerning the Dynamic Lighting setting:

Dynamic Reflections​

Makes reflections more realistic by replacing the static global environment map with a real-time environment map based on the camera. The resolution of the environment map doubles each quality step starting at 128 and ends at 1024. The types of objects that reflect at different options are outlined below.​

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Low: basic world features (ex: terrain, sky, water)​

Medium: taxiway and runway features)​

High: autogen buildings and air features (ex: stars, clouds)​

Ultra: details (ex: particles, vegetation)​

​

Each setting affects different areas within the P3D world. The "Medium" setting only affects taxiway and runway features and including the "Low" settings but not autogen buildings or stars. What is missing are specifics, such as models created and placed. According to the SDK it is handled at the time of compiling the scenery with the given information.

Within the SDK v4.5:

Lighting options allow you to customize the environment of your flight. Adjusting the light options can enhance the flying experience by emphasizing certain light-dependent aspects. For example, shadows being cast will allow the pilot to anticipate flying conditions in the different forms of light.​

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Lighting in Prepar3D consists of two sections: Lighting and Shadows.​

Within the Lighting section:

HDR Lighting​

High-Dynamic-Range lighting, or HDR, displays more realistic lighting with an increased level of detail. HDR lighting renders a more detailed scene by using light calculations done with a larger dynamic range. This appears to the user as crisper light, natural light reflections of the sunbeams and rays, as well as moonlight on the surrounding atmosphere. With HDR enabled brightness, bloom, and saturation can also be modified offering greater control of the final image.​

I'm not sure that you have mentioned the HDR Lighting settings (above). This section could help, along with the Shadows section:

Shadows​

Shadows are a new addition to Prepar3D that will add to the overall training experience. There are several options that customize the user's flying experience.​

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Shadow Quality​

Shadow quality controls the quality and frequency of the rendered shadows. Setting this to off will disable shadows entirely.​

​

Shadow Draw Distance​

Shadow draw distance adjusts the largest distance that a shadow will render out starting at the player's view origin.​

​

Object Shadow Casting and Receiving​

The object shadow cast distance ranges from 0 to 12,000 meters. The options allow you to choose which objects you want to cast or receive shadows.​

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Each object has the option for the shadow to be cast by the object type or to be a recipient of shadows. This allows the user to customize which shadows are displayed in the simulated view while having greater control over the overall performance of the software. No Shadow Flagged Content will respect 3rd party content shadow preferences.​

I think this section above is very important. The shadows that are missing could be fixed within this section or in the additional section within the SDK called "Advanced Options", specifically:

Shadows​

Shadow textures for the ground and cloud size can be adjusted. The recommended values are values of 2 between 256 and 8096.​

Within the real world, which P3D is trying to achieve, shadows are not solid, especially along the edges (unless close to the ground or object next to).

Thanks for all the efforts. I am pretty certain now this and the jagged shadows is just shorcoming of the current P3D PBR shading logic, and looking at their track record, LM will continue to improve it.

You are welcome!! We all are trying to understand all the changes to P3D (especially v4.4 and up). I'm not sure that it is a shortcoming as it might be just understanding how things work with P3D, but if it is, your right I'm sure it will be fixed!