• Which the release of FS2020 we see an explosition of activity on the forun and of course we are very happy to see this. But having all questions about FS2020 in one forum becomes a bit messy. So therefore we would like to ask you all to use the following guidelines when posting your questions:

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    Any other question that is not specific to an aspect of development or tool can be posted in the General chat forum.

    By following these guidelines we make sure that the forums remain easy to read for everybody and also that the right people can find your post to answer it.

Really am very very annoyed (OT - not FS related)

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Hi guys,

I made a reference in the "Good Freeware Bad for Business" thread about a friend of mine always having the latest version of some software, despite NEVER paying for it.

Well, Autodesk released "Extension 2" for Maya Unlimited 2008 recently for gold subscribers only (of which I am one) - it is not for public release, and mainly includes new features for muscle systems and skinning, as well as all the SP1 updates (SP1 is on public release at the website).

So I went round to my friend's house this evening for a couple of beers and to see his and his wife's new baby, and guess what...! He drags me into his study to show me:

"the latest release of Maya. It's awesome man! Some cool new things."

Yep - it's Extension 2.

I didn't have a go - he is a new dad after all and emotions have been running high in his household recently - so I put my game face on and smiled and nodded.

We've all heard the arguments surrounding piracy before, so there is no need to rehash them. I just had to vent my frustration somehow....!!! :eek:

Martin
 

Paavo

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But did he cause any financial loss to Autodesk?
After all, he's a new father and Maya is very expensive software.

If he really can't afford it, then the loss on the Autodesk's side is zero. One the other hand, Autodesk gets free (and rather effective; word of mouth is quite powerful) advertisement from him since he suggest that software to others and helps to spread knowledge about it.
 

Horst18519

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If he really can't afford it, then the loss on the Autodesk's side is zero...
I don't want to take part in this sort of discussion, but as a moderator I don't want to read any of this here. :mad:

There is NO apology for piracy, and we developers should know this best of all. :twocents:
 

Paavo

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I don't want to take part in this sort of discussion, but as a moderator I don't want to read any of this here. :mad:

There is NO apology for piracy, and we developers should know this best of all. :twocents:

It may be hard to separate emotions from arguments, if you are a payware developer.
I, too, prefer not to descend into discussion over piracy. However, I want to remind that from utilitarian point of view, not all forms of piracy are inherently bad. In the case presented above, I fail to see any harm made to anyone.
 
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After all, he's a new father and Maya is very expensive software.

If he really can't afford it, then the loss on the Autodesk's side is zero. One the other hand, Autodesk gets free (and rather effective; word of mouth is quite powerful) advertisement from him since he suggest that software to others and helps to spread knowledge about it.

Hmm... That is what the Maya PLE (Personal Learning Edition) is for - it is free and pretty comprehensive...

I *really* don't want to get into an ugly debate, so let's keep it professional and civil (which it has been so far! :) ) but look at your argument from an FS point of view.

Joe Bloggs has downloaded FSX and a load of addons from the internet, along with activation bypassers / serial numbers etc. Now, Joe would never actually go out and *buy* this software, but he has it because he could download it for free.

Technically, the loss to MS and the addon developers is nil, because in a situation where Joe could not download the software, he would never buy it in any case.

But I bet if yours was one of the addons he got, and you found out, you would be pretty annoyed? :p

Cheers!

Martin
 
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Example:

I am a fruit vendor. I have spent resources - my time and money - to obtain the fruit in my stand for people to purchase.

Along comes someone who can either afford - or not - the fruit I am selling and takes some.

Net loss to me? There is the argument that "it would have spoiled if it had not been taken, so there's no loss", but that is part of the risk *I* take to make my livelihood. I expected some compensation - enough to cover my costs and a little more - from my having to go through the bureaucracy to obtain permission to sell, having to either grow or otherwise purchase the fruit, package and bring/present the fruit to sale... Yes, there is a loss.

(The above is completely separate from the argument that if *I* choose to give away the fruit for free, for whatever reason - maybe I was kind hearted and saw that the person could not afford the fruit, and *I* decided to let them have it).

Piracy is stealing, the taking of something without the proper permission.
 
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Apart from the emotional aspect (I used to get very stressed when my scenery would start appearing on the pirate sites) there are some issues here which are specific to developers like me who try to make a full-time living from this.
I know there is a certain group who steal stuff as a hobby. I imagine that the thrill is in the getting, not the using, and that their biggest boast is how many GBs of stolen stuff they have. Although this is the creepiest group, there are the least harmful to me, I suspect.
The real danger to me is the social sharer, who may visit the same sites as the creeps, and get the same stuff, but they have a genuine interest in what they steal. Then they offer it to their mates. Say they offer it to 10 people, who each offer it to 10 more. Many of these folk who end up with my scenery may not even be aware that it should be paid for.
Now let's look at someone else, who actually bought the product, and recommends it to 10 friends. Most won't buy it, but maybe 3 will. That's 3 extra customers for me, which counts for a lot more than you could imagine:)
Now if those three each recommend it on, I could end up with a week's worth of sales!
So I see my job to educate those who may not even be aware that what they are doing is wrong. Some of these would be mortified to find out that they are pirates, and some may just be happier to pay.
I have the least amount of affection for those who use the argument that they can't afford to buy my scenery, and that I'm not losing anything because they will never be a customer. Hell, they could mow a neighbour's lawn or two to cover the cost of my scenery, if they really wanted it...
 
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@Felix....please don't confuse this discussion by creating metaphors that involve physical products.

Metaphor only helps when it makes the situation clearer. In this case it confuses. the software vendor sees NO impact, becuase the additional download is unreal to him/her beyond the consideration of sales "opportunity". There is NO material nature to the Piracy action.

As Paavo points out, if the opportunity cost lost is zero, the impact to the producer is either zero, or positive..if the free advertising creates new sales.

Sadly, we are admonished not to have an open discussion of this topic, because so much fear has evolved, and I suspect mostly through the propaganda prompted when companies publish piracy as 100% lost sales, and then calculate the dollars "lost".

These publications then make the small software vendor quake with fear and loathing for the pirates, and ANYONE who doesn't quake with loathing alongside them. But....its mostly based on fear.

If re-calculated to opportunity dollars lost, piracy losses would be much lower.

Anyone upset by this????....please measure your own fear over your own reality. Fear is the enemy, not logic.

My argument (and Paavo's) is built on logic, not support for piracy, not with a message pro or con to anyone about anything, but if the subject comes up....its not communication unless points built on logic are able to be expressed.

Rather than become afraid, build a great product, support it with great services, and ignore piracy.

You will succeed!

Best,
Bob
 
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@ Thorston, I respect your work to police the forums. However, when you associate Paavo's comments, and my subsequent comments with "apologizing for Piracy", you've failed to overcome your own bias to understand what's being said.

Its kind of brain numbing to imagine that one can't analyse a subject freely, just because of the possibility that the analysis won't properly "vilify" a certain group of people.

We need more, not less, fearless analysis, bounded by the shared desire to see free enterprise succeed, while not prejudging before the discussion takes place.

Best,
Bob
 
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Thorsten,

I think if I was running this website, I'd ban any user who suggested that piracy was any kind of a viable option for any reason.

The last thing fsdeveloper.com needs is to slowly gain the reputation that it's a forum where pirates feel free to hang out and spread their views about how piracy is really OK as long as you don't have the money to purchase software from the evil companies that charge for their work.

This is your house, and you are certainly free to respond to this issue however you like, but in my house, I am careful about the company I keep.

Cheers,
Kevin
 
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I totally agree with you as well, Kevin

Since no one in this thread has sided with piracy, endorsed piracy or apologized for piracy, Thorston would have no work to do.

You all realize that analyzing the data is not equivalent to supporting piracy, right?

Or is your fear so grand that you can't stand the thought of the problem not being as big as the propaganda suggests?

Bob
 
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This thread is fascinating. Kevin has called for banning, NOT for supporting piracy as he claimed but rather for using ones minds to analyse the reality and DARE to suggest the bandwagon viewpoint is exaggerated. Thus, the call has been made to censor thought if it deviates from the mainstream.

Only one comment above could even be close to suggesting that piracy be accepted, when Paavo said "not all forms of piracy are bad". Perhaps that comment would incite the flames of fear, but I think I know what he meant, he was pointing to the value of advertising without economic loss. You might also choose to refer to the American Revolution as piracy, thus civil disobediance, but.....that discussion can only be safe if the listerner's minds are open...and that appears not to be the case at this moment.

I'M PUTTING YOU ALL ON NOTICE....that this comment was not meant to support present day pirates. Paavo is analysing as an economist would. AS a scientist would.



Wow.

What forces are in play? Frustration? Possibly, a sense that bad guys that no one can control are taking your money?

Has that sense reached such a fever pitch in people that they can't think? So sad.

If the economic losses of piracy is exagerated by propaganda,is this concept soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dangerous in the minds of the frightened that we should BAN users who DARE utter the words?

Did anyone ever read the Emperor's new clothes? That story was warning you not to make such a mistake. It should be recommended reading for anyone unable to hear a new viewpoint without jumping to conclusions.

I know Paavo and he does not pirate, and neither do I. I also have one product (yes, not a thriving business but at least one product) on the 3pd market and stand to lose money due to piracy.

I'm one of you.

Butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt..................I don't close my mind to the reality of the situation. I don't jump on bandwagons if facts suggest the bandwagon is exaggerated.

Its called independant thought....its what makes free societies great, folks. It will encourage dialoge and reduce the number of divisive calls for banning viewpoints that you are uncomfortable with.


Best,
Bob
 
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n4gix

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@Felix....please don't confuse this discussion by creating metaphors that involve physical products.

Metaphor only helps when it makes the situation clearer. In this case it confuses. the software vendor sees NO impact, becuase the additional download is unreal to him/her beyond the consideration of sales "opportunity". There is NO material nature to the Piracy action.

As Paavo points out, if the opportunity cost lost is zero, the impact to the producer is either zero, or positive..if the free advertising creates new sales.

Bob, while I agree with most of the points both you and Paavo have raised thus far, I would point out that there are indeed cases where the opportunity cost is not zero, and therefore there is a "material nature to the Piracy action."

Consider for a moment the nature of "keygen crackers," the sole purpose of which is to provide a programmatic method to "unlock encrypted installers" such as used by Flight1 and other publishers/developers.

For this "keygen" to be used, the prospective "pirate" typically would need to also download the original installer program from the developer's website, thus incurring a "bandwith expense" for the developer.

When taken in isolation, a single instance of this "bandwidth expense" might appear trivial. The reality is that if there are tens of thousands of unrenumerated downloads of any given installer package, the total losses could conceiveably offset the net net earned by the developer for legitimate sales.

Hence, Felix's hypothetical fruit vendor isn't totally off the mark as a metaphor for some instances of piracy.
 
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Bob,

Piracy of software produced by the forum members who support fsdeveloper.com is theft.

There is no debate to be had.

Paavo is saying piracy doesn't hurt software producers as long as the thief is a new father who - allegedly - can't afford not to steal the product. This view is common in the third-world, and I've heard it over and over there.

He's not debating the "bandwagon viewpoint." He's apologizing for thieves and you're encouraging him when you suggest there is a bandwagon viewpoint that there needs to be some debate about.

If you want to discuss the merits of piracy as it relates to opportunity costs vs. new fatherhood, you and Paavlo should be invited by the owners of this site to do it elsewhere. That's not censorship. You don't know the meaning of the word censorship, and it's obvious from the way you use the word.

It's just good business practice for this site's owners, who also produce software that I'm sure they wouldn't look kindly on people stealing because they agree with your "bandwagon viewpoint."
 
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It does seem to be the norm for an online forum to protect itself by 'banning' discussions like this, I run one myself, and although I pushed hard for open discussion on piracy, I lost.

Discussion leads to education, which is the single most effective anti-piracy tool I've come across. I'm not too concerned with the broader issues, just how they affect my business -- and believe me, they do. Customers are hard enough to come by without people actively working to distribute my work for nothing.

And as I've said before, there are many good folk who accept the availability of pirated goods without thought -- if there was a bit more open discussion, then these are the people who go on to become my customers.
 
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@ rightnumberone:

<<Piracy of software produced by the forum members who support fsdeveloper.com is theft.

There is no debate to be had.>>

Of course. The problem is that the harm is commonly exagerrated as claiming the sale prices of the goods is the loss, when the only loss is the bandwidth in cases where the theif was never planning to be a customer before or after the theft.

<<Paavo is saying piracy doesn't hurt software producers as long as the thief is a new father who - allegedly - can't afford not to steal the product. This view is common in the third-world, and I've heard it over and over there.

He's not debating the "bandwagon viewpoint." He's apologizing for thieves and you're encouraging him when you suggest there is a bandwagon viewpoint that there needs to be some debate about.>>





Nonsense....Paavo is a lawabiding flightsim enthusiast who is pointing out a valid economic reality.





<<If you want to discuss the merits of piracy as it relates to opportunity costs vs. new fatherhood, you and Paavlo should be invited by the owners of this site to do it elsewhere. That's not censorship. You don't know the meaning of the word censorship, and it's obvious from the way you use the word.>>





Here you go, reacting to the analysis of what's lost in the case of piracy as discussing the "merits" of piracy. This is more "yer with us or yer agin us" thinking. You appear to also be unable to discuss the issue without becoming fearful.

No, I just want to have good people like Paavo free to express themselves when they are providing valid information worth digesting. The "banning" of a person like Paavo is absurd, heavyhanded censorship.

You are pretending that your view is the "good" view, and other views are the "bad" views, and you are further pretending that Arno agrees with you. Perhaps you are young enough to still believe in "good guys" and "bad guys". Truth is no binary view of the world has any depth. I'd suggest you make no assumptions on how Arno views the world, and stop pretending that Arno is with you on your "good guy" team. Arno is his own person, who will form his own thoughts and very well might suprise us both with his view, so I'd stop pretending you can co-opt his support.




<<It's just good business practice for this site's owners, who also produce software that I'm sure they wouldn't look kindly on people stealing because they agree with your "bandwagon viewpoint.">>


Arno and I have known each other a long time, and I feel pretty strongly that his purpose here is to provide a forum for thoughtful discourse over flight sim related concepts. He is not a fan of censorship, and is smart enough to know that no one (including Paavo) that has taken part in this discussion favors the practice of piracy.

So, enjoy your different viewpoint. We can disagree and enjoy the exchange of views as long as free speach is enforced, not inhibited as you and others recommend. Again, attempting to strengthen your argument by imagining that you speak for Arno is silly, and I'd simply stop doing that if I were you.

Best,
Bob
 
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Bob,

Quoting your friend Paavo: "However, I want to remind that from utilitarian point of view, not all forms of piracy are inherently bad. In the case presented above, I fail to see any harm made to anyone."

So, according to Paavo, some piracy is OK. He doesn't see any harm.

Am I reading that right? I think I've fairly encapsulated his thinking on the subject, and your defense of him.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. You think it's OK to discuss whether people and companies are harmed by piracy as if there is some debate on the subject.

I will say that I speak for myself, and never once suggested that I speak for Arno, or whoever owns this site.

There is no excuse for thievery, in my view, whether one argues about whether there is economic harm to the victim of the theft or not. Or whether, as in Paavo's case he "can't see the harm." That he cannot see the harm is hardly a justificiation for software piracy.

Discuss it till the cows come home, as I'm sure you and your friend will. I think FSDEVELOPER.COM is cheapened by the discussion, and shouldn't become a place where debates about the economic benefits of stealing are welcomed.

That's certainly not a community I'd want to contribute to.
 
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n4gix

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Bob,

Quoting your friend Paavo: "However, I want to remind that from utilitarian point of view, not all forms of piracy are inherently bad. In the case presented above, I fail to see any harm made to anyone."

So, according to Paavo, some piracy is OK. He doesn't see any harm.
...
That's certainly not a community I'd want to contribute to.

So, instead of investing any effort towards trying to show Paavo the "harm to anyone" that indeed exists, you spend all your energy beating the wrong horse? How is that helpful? In what way is that contributing towards better understanding?

Further, Paavo qualified his opinion/observation to what he perceives as a special case. He did not extend this hypothesis to embrace all cases.

For the record, I do not support that particular POV, and cannot conceive of any case where theft can ever be justified. Rationalized, yes; justified, no... Not ever.

You also stated:

...where debates about the economic benefits of stealing are welcomed.

Where in this thread has this occurred? Even after re-reading every word several times, I cannot for the life of me find any instance of what you've claimed in the quote above.
 
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