Resellers stop using PayPal for payments

=rk=

Resource contributor
#23
I was wondering if the amount of money were huge and they didn't believe, would they freeze my money?.
Absolutely.

"There are several reasons funds may be temporarily unavailable:

1. You’re a new seller with PayPal or you’re an established seller but have opened a new account.
When you’re a new PayPal seller, it takes time to build up enough history to demonstrate a pattern of positive buyer-seller transactions. The good news is you can usually move out of this status by confirming your identity and building up a history of positive selling activity.
If you’re an established PayPal seller, but opened a new account, that account will be eligible for holds until a good history is established.

2. You haven’t sold in a while.
When your selling activity has been dormant for a long time, it will also take time to rebuild a history of positive buyer-seller transactions.

3. Multiple customers filed for a refund, dispute, or chargeback.
If multiple customers file for a refund, dispute, or chargeback, or if you receive a large number of refunds, disputes or chargebacks in a short period of time, it can delay the availability of your funds. The best way to resolve this is to work directly with your customers to prevent, or solve, disputes and chargebacks.
Sometimes it’s possible that your customer filed for a refund, dispute, or chargeback because someone illegally used their PayPal account to buy something. We ask that you hold off on shipping any items when this happens.

4. Your selling pattern appears unusual or has changed.
Unusual sales activity includes: an increase in sales or a change in average selling price, business platform, or type of item being sold.

5. You’re selling higher risk items.
Higher risk items can include tickets, gift cards, consumer electronics, computers, travel packages, flight simulator scenery and aircrafts."
https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/faq1987

We may have slightly misrepresented one, or two, of the listed higher risk items.
 

jtanabodee

Resource contributor
#24
Higher risk items can include flight simulator scenery and aircrafts.
Really! you are kidding...
I cannot imagine that flight simulator scnery and aircrafts are high risk items. I think from their point of view, marijuana might be lesser risk item!
Anyway, I stop using Paypal years ago.
 
#25
Oops, sorry. No gender but expiration date.
View attachment 48801
All those fields are required to fully authorize credit card payment.

There are different levels of authorization, and as you give less and less information to the card issuer as a merchant, you increase the chance that they will either fail to authorize the card, or even withhold money if customer complains of fraudulent charges.

Address is one of the better security indicators as it's separate from the physical card. I've had it that I put in a wrong postal code and my card was declined online.
 
#26
Today I saw a new item about an increase in counterfeit banknotes here in NZ. We all accept that you need to take care when handling your cash, but once you get onto the net, there are more threats, and you just don't know what lengths people will go to to get your hard-earned money. Or at least incur a debt on your credit card. So Paypal really do a great job, and I don't think a lot of their requirements are unacceptable. For a while in my own online store I processed credit card payments online, which was handy, but I was always aware of the risk having to collect and transmit customer's info online. In the end I gave it up and shifted to Paypal, partly because of the cost (I'd pay for the cc facility each month, whether or not I was selling anything) but it was really good not to have to worry about having a customer's info being stolen. Now Paypal take that responsibility for me.

So security is a big deal for Paypal, plus there are a lot of rules regarding money laundering etc which they need to be continually ahead of. I don't mind giving my details to them, if it means I don't have to give them to every dealer on the web.

Paypal have improved a lot lately, so I'm less worried that they will just 'lose' my money when I withdraw it for instance. This has happened a couple of times, both were fixed eventually, but it can be a scary wait. At one stage Paypal just didn't do any withdrawals here in NZ for a month, which meant I had almost no income, along with a lot of other local businesses. They sorted that out, and promised that it won't happen again -- they learnt their lesson, I think.

But I do think that the problems which Orbx had really call for more action on Paypal's part. They should be working harder to help businesses prove their income, simply having a business 'suffer' a huge increase in sales should be investigated, yes, but it shouldn't just be the responsibility of the business to sort this out. If it takes a Paypal employee a full day on the phone to sort it out, then they are at least doing what they can. I am always worrying that suddenly my business will take off, and my funds will be frozen -- just kidding, that's more wishful thinking than a real worry:)

I'm not sure what problems SimMarket had with them, and I'm not sure if this will affect their sales, but it does look like simmers like using Paypal. I use SimMarket a lot compared to other vendors (I don't spend a lot on the web at the moment though) but I'm not sure what I'll do the next time I want to buy something. I need to be confident that it is worth staying with them. Of course as a vendor, I rely almost 100% on Paypal, and I'm happy to keep doing so. I just have to cross my fingers a bit more...

EDIT: I just realised that as I sell my scenery on SimMarket as well as my own store, and they will no longer be paying via Paypal, I no longer rely 100% on Paypal... some comfort there.
 

=rk=

Resource contributor
#27
I really, really like your scenery, but it seems like living in the land of fantastic cinematic scenes, might lead to a little disconnection.
I'm not sure what problems SimMarket had with them,
You pretty much answer your own question:
For a while in my own online store I processed credit card payments online, which was handy, but I was always aware of the risk having to collect and transmit customer's info online. In the end I gave it up and shifted to Paypal, partly because of the cost (I'd pay for the cc facility each month, whether or not I was selling anything) but it was really good not to have to worry about having a customer's info being stolen. Now Paypal take that responsibility for me.

So security is a big deal for Paypal
Apparently, security is not such a big deal for simMarket and the costs of running their own credit card processing is lower, i.e. less humiliating and arrogant, than PayPal's.
These two statements seem particularly disconnected:
Paypal have improved a lot lately, so I'm less worried that they will just 'lose' my money when I withdraw it for instance. This has happened a couple of times, both were fixed eventually, but it can be a scary wait. At one stage Paypal just didn't do any withdrawals here in NZ for a month, which meant I had almost no income, along with a lot of other local businesses. They sorted that out, and promised that it won't happen again -- they learnt their lesson, I think.
Today I saw a new item about an increase in counterfeit banknotes here in NZ. We all accept that you need to take care when handling your cash, but once you get onto the net, there are more threats, and you just don't know what lengths people will go to to get your hard-earned money.
On the one hand, you have the media warning the general public that the basic exchange medium may be corrupt. In my country, it was a big deal when the Silver Certificate was withdrawn, our economy is guaranteed by the government and this is demonstrated in the rock solid value of the dollar. I am not testifying as to the validity of the perspective, but anyone reading this recognizes it. You are so faithful to your own local economy, you are able to blame Paypal for refusing to do business in an economy that openly warns of counterfeit.
But I do think that the problems which Orbx had really call for more action on Paypal's part. They should be working harder to help businesses prove their income, simply having a business 'suffer' a huge increase in sales should be investigated, yes, but it shouldn't just be the responsibility of the business to sort this out. If it takes a Paypal employee a full day on the phone to sort it out, then they are at least doing what they can. I am always worrying that suddenly my business will take off, and my funds will be frozen -- just kidding, that's more wishful thinking than a real worry
Paypal is not a regulatory body, they have no power of enforcement and no bureau of investigation, they rely on the local agencies for these things as all businesses do and like you, they just want to do business. They offer to put up a substantial amount of money in local economies, so that when a transaction occurs in one of them, they are able to immediately "seal" that transaction, so to speak. They aren't into theft, investigation, helping businesses, whatever, they just want to make a buck (or yuan, or quatloo, or NZbuck, or whatever you call them) doing extremely short term loans and one can't fault them for that. ORBX is always free to find another software laundering service that is less humiliating and arrogant.
Really! you are kidding...
I cannot imagine that flight simulator scnery and aircrafts are high risk items. I think from their point of view, marijuana might be lesser risk item!
Anyway, I stop using Paypal years ago.
Correct as always, Tic. It's funny you mention marijuana, in terms of risk. Above, I extolled on the whole US rock solid economy, that can actually go sideways, too. Our country is very polarized. Progressive regions, including several western states, legalized the drug. The banks reside in more traditional areas and side with federal law, which lists the drug as illegal. The perspective is that the Feds can seize assets without further provocation, so the banks refuse to invest. Therefore, all transactions have to be conducted in federal reserve notes (cash), instead of publicly safer and more secure credit transactions, guaranteed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. Free enterprise at it's finest!
 
#28
Rick, I suspect that you were expecting me to be arguing for a particular 'side' in this discussion, but for the life of me I can't figure which... some people here are arguing that Paypal are too invasive, some say SimMarket is being too precious, it just isn't that simple to me, which is why I lean both ways... If Paypal wants to take on some of the roles of a bank, they need to up their act (which they acknowledged when they went public.). If SimMarket want to take advantage (or not, in this case) of Paypal's market penetration, security and simplicity, they need to make it easy for Paypal to assume and manage the risk.
One big 'problem' for the flightsim market is the growth, all of a sudden there is a lot more money involved, so neither SimMarket nor Paypal should expect things to continue without some give and take.
 

jtanabodee

Resource contributor
#29
I am getting confused.
We have 3 situations here.
  1. Buying something using PayPal... no problem at all.
  2. Getting money from Paypal from what you sell directly.... no problem (is that right? I don't know. Judged by reading)
  3. Transfering money THROUGH Paypal... that is the problem Simmarket got, transfer money from customers to vendors.
Those conclusions are true or false?
 
#30
Those conclusions are true or false?
I will say first that I still stick by my comment that I don't really know the issues SimMarket had, but they did say that Paypal were requiring a lot more information than they were happy to give. Rather than hope that they'd have a solution by the imposed deadline, they just quit using Paypal. (Most of what I know came from D'Andre at FL350 and via my SimMarket vendor's account messaging.)
By the way, I do think that part of the confusion in the beginning was down to some posts etc from SimMarket, denying the whole thing. I guess this was a lack of communication on their part, they did reply to my Facebook post aimed as my European customers, but later removed their post. FSElite had a similar response. So maybe not everyone at SimMarket was aware that this decision had been taken.
 
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=rk=

Resource contributor
#31
Rick, I suspect that you were expecting me to be arguing for a particular 'side' in this discussion, but for the life of me I can't figure which... some people here are arguing that Paypal are too invasive, some say SimMarket is being too precious, it just isn't that simple to me, which is why I lean both ways... If Paypal wants to take on some of the roles of a bank, they need to up their act (which they acknowledged when they went public.). If SimMarket want to take advantage (or not, in this case) of Paypal's market penetration, security and simplicity, they need to make it easy for Paypal to assume and manage the risk.
One big 'problem' for the flightsim market is the growth, all of a sudden there is a lot more money involved, so neither SimMarket nor Paypal should expect things to continue without some give and take.
I'm not expecting anything. I strongly believe in free enterprise. Paypal is a money transfer agency, it is not a bank, nor does it presume to take on roles of a bank. Paypal was born from eBay, the worlds marketplace and business took off so soundly, a transfer service was a natural and quickly outgrew eBay's in house service to become Paypal. Allowing you to sell software from New Zealand to me in the US was simply a consequence of that market, it wasn't even a target, or a goal.
Regardless, banks loan money, they do not regulate it's transfer, nor do they investigate crime; governments, like the US government and presumably the NZ equivalent provide that service. If you are able to quantify information that shows us Paypal intends to provide money lending, interest bearing, depositories and other services provided by banks, please do so.

In the context of free enterprise, Paypal may, it it's sole discretion, decide to whom and what level it will extend it's money transferring service. It has no responsibility to provide service to anyone, beyond the interests of it's shareholders and again, in the context of free enterprise, it is unreasonable to place any expectations upon Paypal to do anything in regards to "it's game." However, in the context of free enterprise, any individual is certainly free to establish their own money transfer service which directly competes with Paypal, upon those points with which they contend, it's game, for example, or perhaps a money transfer service that is less humiliating and arrogant.

Ultimately, to refuse Paypal transfer induces a loss of faith on my part. Granted, it is a free world and anyone may develop a better money exchange model. I don't see that coming from simMarket. I, personally, would prefer they stick to sourcing the best software for my sim and providing the best value and support available. There is already a very excellent money transfer service that has a very good reputation. I am not comfortable with the, "Paypal were requiring a lot more information than they were happy to give." Ok, "hello, simMarket, this is the consumer speaking, I am not happy to transfer my hard earned money for digital goods to an agency that has a very explicit zero refund policy, without either one of two things; either to see, inspect and test my software before paying, or to know that I have recourse, should the software turn out to be corrupt, bogus or incompatible." This is my savings as a consumer, to endorse simMarket for not providing "a lot more information"?

Because it sure seems like Paypal provides the consumer with protections that simMarket pawns off as "a lot more information than they were happy to give."
 

jtanabodee

Resource contributor
#32
I was wondering why PayPal is so picky and fussy. Even the banks is not as picky as them. The way they do destroying their business. Transactions through them will be less and less.
They are not investigating bureau, money laundry protection institute nor Financial Crime Protection Bureau. Just do their job, transferring money. If there are problems happen, or investigations needed, just hand the information of the transactions to the police upon request.
Like I said, I stop using them years ago. I cannot stands a person who is that picky, except my wife!
 
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#33
"hello, simMarket, this is the consumer speaking,..."
This is really the point here, the 'consumer market' will decide, but really I mean the 'flightsim community', which tends to react as a community. It's been pointed out that Orbx survived quitting Paypal, thrived in fact, but I'm not yet sure that SimMarket will be so lucky. I have noticed that I haven't had a single sale through SimMarket since their announcement. This may not mean much, as it's early days, but it is worrying.
Mostly we agree, the only real difference is in the culture -- here in NZ, if it quacks like a duck, even if only sometimes, it's probably a duck, so when Paypal operates in NZ, and it appears to the consumer that it does some of the things which banks do, then it needs to offer the same level of security and customer service that banks are held to. I understand that for the US 'free enterprise' is a treasured thing, but for some of world -- including here -- it is always going to come second to consumer rights and security. While having Paypal freeze your funds might seem like one of the risks you take to be in business, it would freak out most NZers:)
Actually, I've always had a no-refund policy on my site, although these days it doesn't actually show that, and sometimes I wouldn't be able to legally enforce it here. I do sometimes refund, mainly if someone buys something twice, accidentally, or if they didn't realise the sim requirements. In 12 years, though, I've never been asked for a refund for 'faulty goods', or 'unfit purpose', so I've been lucky. SimMarket don't have the same control over product support, so a blanket no-refund policy seems like one solution. And in their case, the market decides whether they'll take the risk with this policy.
The flightsim market is in a funny position, it has been a small hobbyist thing for a long, long time, but it has grown over time, and when things start making money, businesses kick up a notch. It would be nice to be in the flightsim business in a big way, but still treat it as a niche community which can have more lenient rules, and a simpler business model. But they can't last forever.
 

n4gix

Resource contributor
#34
Regardless, banks loan money, they do not regulate it's transfer, nor do they investigate crime; governments, like the US government and presumably the NZ equivalent provide that service. If you are able to quantify information that shows us Paypal intends to provide money lending, interest bearing, depositories and other services provided by banks, please do so.
Rick, PayPal has been offering business loan services for about a year now. I receive at least one solicitation from them every week. I am not interested since I am not a "business" per se. I receive my monthly salary via PayPal, but that's all. It would be useful if I were the owner of a business and had to purchase inventory, pay salaries, insurance, et cetera.

I do buy and sell select radio equipment from time to time, but not nearly enough to need a "business loan account." :laughing:

They also offer a PayPal Credit account for individuals as well. I have had a $2500 line of credit for two years now. For many purchases, they even offer "Deferred interest" if the amount is paid in full within six months.

So, even though they aren't a "full service bank" they are certainly getting a bit "bankish..." :twocents:
 

=rk=

Resource contributor
#35
I don't think an Alaska Airlines Visa card makes the airline any more bankish than Horizon Air, which does not have an endorsed credit agreement with the big lenders as do both Alaska Airlines and Paypal, than a Paypal Mastercard makes Paypal look any more bankish than xoom, which happens to be a subsidiary of Paypal. I think, Bill, that if you read the fine print, you will learn that an accredited lender is handling Paypal credit accounts.
I don't know international laws, but domestic laws are very strict about who can loan, how and why. It's how they try to keep the Mafia out of Vegas, I know, as if and it's why virtually all credit cards are sourced from a very few parent companies, Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Discover, etc.

I'm not disputing anyone's beliefs, or perceptions, but I really think it comes down to that, perceptions. See, you'd want to consider that Paypal doesn't really put up the money to enable all these sales transactions, the sheer volume would be monumental. If I were Paypal, I'd just keep it and found my own country. Instead, Paypal finds investors in local economies and offers them lucrative returns. No one exactly local? Ok, a few more hours, or days to get your money transferred.
So there's a very strict agreement between investor and Paypal, money must always be available (in the agreed amount) and Paypal always pays, as agreed. There is no way Paypal can, or will, harm that arrangement with an added layer of risk, because that is what all credit is, risk and there is no way Paypal could factor that risk assessment into an ongoing agreement with the original creditor, the bread and butter of the whole Paypal money transfer system.
The idea that Paypal operates as a bank really seems to be perceptual. Perceptually, it also seems impossible that Paypal owns all the money it uses to close sales. The consumer owns it and Paypal facilitates bank transfers and in some instances, arranges for the money to be covered through outside investment, until the money paid by the consumer is received. Paypal does not have a credit card, Paypal endorses a Mastercard credit card. Paypal does not have branches, it does not have safe deposits and most importantly, is not protected by the FDIC.

You know the heck with what I think, let's hear from Paypal

"PayPal is not a bank and it is not insured by the FDIC. FDIC insurance does not protect you against the risk of PayPal’s insolvency. "
https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/how-does-the-fdic-protect-paypal-faq3589
 

n4gix

Resource contributor
#36
Thanks for joining the discussion. One point of order however, I do not have a PayPal Master Card. In fact, I don't have anything physical at all. I simply have a credit account to which I can buy most anything from any source and charge it against my PayPal Credit account.

In the case of Amazon however, both my Amazon Store Card and my Amazon Visa are separate accounts, but are both under the umbrella of Synchrony Bank.
 

=rk=

Resource contributor
#37
I simply have a credit account to which I can buy most anything from any source and charge it against my PayPal Credit account.
Well, it is not "Paypal" credit, it is Synchrony Bank credit, FDIC insured, just like your Amazon stuff. You're probably paying all sorts of different rates and terms to the exact same bank. Seems more efficient to consolidate all transactions that occur with the same lender and we might as well add Synchrony to the very short list above.
In some cases, if it looks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck, it may well be an Oregon State fan. Things aren't always what they appear to be and Paypal has already informed us they are not a bank, therefore can not extend credit. To be absolutely clear about Paypal "non physical credit accounts," we will again take it from the horses mouth:

About PayPal Credit
PayPal Credit is a digital, reusable credit line available to purchase goods and services from thousands of online stores. Use PayPal Credit to shop anywhere PayPal is accepted.
PayPal Credit is subject to credit approval as determined by the lender, Synchrony Bank, and is available to US customers who are of legal age in their state of residence. You must pay with PayPal Credit to get the offers. Minimum purchase required is before shipping and tax. Offers not valid on previous purchases, returns or exchanges.
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/terms/paypal-credit

Paypal exists to profit from allowing money to change hands quickly and efficiently. It's really nothing beyond that and people seem to demonize it based on their perception of Paypal's relationship with other financial institutions. I see it differently. I was an early eBay user, buyer and seller, I kind of believed in the world market idea. Paypal came along and they were definitely like a policing authority. I write "like" because that is how it felt. Police have a tendency to arrest everyone at a fight and sort it out in court and the few times I dealt with dishonest individuals, I suffered. I never really lost and Paypal always paid up in the end, but it can be a long dark tunnel, waiting. Well, you know, I tried selling my video cards down by the freeway onramp and had even worse luck, so still, I can't blame Paypal. In the end, it is what it is and we are free to seek alternatives.
 

MOUSY

Resource contributor
#38
So Simmarket has just suggested the use of Transferwise.com.

All that is needed is an IBAN or Swift Code+Account Number, however the website keeps asking me to fill out the account number field even after I have done so.

(My bank in Trinidad and Tobago does not use IBANs for some reason.)

Has anybody had success adding their bank account details to Transferwise?
 

jtanabodee

Resource contributor
#39
So Simmarket has just suggested the use of Transferwise.com.

All that is needed is an IBAN or Swift Code+Account Number, however the website keeps asking me to fill out the account number field even after I have done so.
(My bank in Trinidad and Tobago does not use IBANs for some reason.)


Has anybody had success adding their bank account details to Transferwise?
I told Simmarket to do bank transfer years ago. All I can remember, just the account number and swift code provided by the bank. That's all.
 
#40
I notice that Simmarket recommend that you don't sign up to TransferWise, in which case TransferWise will just ask for an account to put the payment in. If you do have an account, it works like Paypal, and just sits there until you do something with it.
For the moment I'm happy to use bank transfer, and see how it goes.
 
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