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FS2004 Searching for VC with really smooth gauges

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bvlbvl

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Hi there,

i am seaching (since a long while now) for excellent FS2004-Aircraft (general aviation, business aviation or military) with really smooth virtual cockpit gauges like the real air simulation ones.

Until now i found:
- Real Air Simulations aircraft (as said before)
- SibWings Safir
- Dornier 27 by Digital Aviation
- a freeware WACO

My experiences so far:
- Many aircrafts VC gauges run super smooth - IF you have 60 fps
- With 30fps locked, only the above have realy smooth running gauges (because they are 3D ones?)
- There are other aicraft with 3D gauges in the VC, like the newer Carenado ones - but looking at some videos with framerates locked at 30, the seem quite jerky however.

I would be very happy if you could give me more examples or aircraft with RealAir Simulations Quality VC gauges, freeware or payware.

Bodo
 
hairyspin

hairyspin

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bvlbvl said:
but looking at some videos with framerates locked at 30, the seem quite jerky however
Click to expand...

Are the videos super-smooth? Unless you know for certain they are, it's impossible to say if it's the gauges or the video which is jerky. Bear in mind too that gauge needles can jiggle around in real life and modellers may have simulated this behaviour.
 
Ronald

Ronald

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Do you have any technical (hardware/software) specification of your own flight-sim computer system for us to put your definition of "smoothness" in perspective?
 
B

bvlbvl

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The videos i saw hat an otherwise smooth motion - like we all know it from any tv program.
I think a technical specification of my hard- and software does only partly helps defining "smoothness" - thats why i gave examples, what VC are ment to be smooth (at locked 30fps). The Carendo Cessna 206 is - contrary to the given examples - not smooth at 30fps (it gets smooth at 60fps, but i do want to keep my sim at 30fps to save resources). Smooth means for me: The needles do not seem to jump. E.g. if i crank um the throttle, the engine rpm needle moves up fluidly without visible jumps at 30fps on a 1280x768 resolution.
 
Heretic

Heretic

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This is a developer forum. Take your inquiry to one of the big forums like Avsim, Flightsim, FlightX or Sim Outhouse as the people there are more likely to know which aircraft models have smooth gauges and which don't.


3D gauges run at simulator framerate, 2D gauges run at 18 Hz. If you don't regard 30 or 18 FPS as smooth enough for your purposes, run the simulator at higher framerates or lower your standards.
 
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bvlbvl

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I know that 2D gauges run at 18 Hz (even if that is not fix!, i see 2D gauges run faster if framerate is limited to 60Hz or more!) and 3D gauges run at 30 Hz. But there are also 3D gauges that run smoother or not so smooth (despite they possibly all run at the same 30Hz(?) - so there may me techniques that make gauges smoother than usual.

It is possibly not as simpel as "2D = 18fps, 3D = 30fps" - smooth gauge movement may be more than framerate.

The question is what techniques make gauges so smooth like the ones by RealAir Simulations. And so i asked this question in a developer forum, not in on of the bigger ones.

(BTW @Heretic: Who is the worst fsx developer?)
 
WarpD

WarpD

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2D gauges do not run at 18hz. Data updates are at 18hz.

All rendering is based on frame rates, nothing else. There are tons of things that affect the quality of the render. Even 3D modeled gauges can have issues if something else is messing with rendering performance.
 
Roy Holmes

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If you can see a delay, it is either updating at no more than about 10 times per second or has a deliberate built in lag. It is impossible to see a difference between 25 and 50 hz.
Real electronic displays are updated/redrawn at 25 hz.
Roy
 
Ronald

Ronald

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It is possibly not as simple as "2D = 18fps, 3D = 30fps" - smooth gauge movement may be more than framerate.
Click to expand...
As I see it, at each new image_frame the gauge-display output-picture is calculated and (re)painted on your screen.
Imaging this scenario:
- Your ultra-fast, ultra-smooth gauge is for example technically able to get its information at a rate of 100 times/sec from the heart of yoru flightsim engine
- Your display settings are set/locked at 30/60 frames/second, which - by design - limited the amounts of gauge-needle-movements / sec on screen.
Can you explain to me/us how it is possible for you to come to the conclusion that "smooth gauge needle movement" (what you can see on the screen) is limited by anything else then the display-framerate?

3D gauges run at simulator framerate, 2D gauges run at 18 Hz. If you don't regard 30 or 18 FPS as smooth enough for your purposes, run the simulator at higher framerates or lower your standards.
Click to expand...
I know that 2D gauges run at 18 Hz (even if that is not fix!, i see 2D gauges run faster if framerate is limited to 60Hz or more!)
Click to expand...
2D gauges do not run at 18hz. Data updates are at 18hz.
Click to expand...
Interesting matter... I have a few background questions to all:
A - Are these facts being documented somewhere inside the Microsoft/Prepared SDK'S? (since I was not able to find these facts inside the articles below):
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc526958.aspx
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc526953.aspx
>>
- http://www.prepar3d.com/SDK/SimObject Creation Kit/Panels and Gauges SDK/creating xml gauges.html
- http://prepar3d.com/SDKv2/LearningCenter/simobjects/panels_and_gauges/programming_c_gauges.html
- http://www.prepar3d.com/SDK/SimObject Creation Kit/Panels and Gauges SDK/directx9 gauges.html

B - Or..was this determined through endless trail-and-error?
 
WarpD

WarpD

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Not certain why you even begin to question my statement... but I know it to be fact because I write gauge code for FSX/Prepar3D and have done so for many years. The PRE_UPDATE cycle is the data cycle and it gets called 18 times per second. the PRE_DRAW is the actual render cycle and it gets called as often as the sim wants the gauge to be redrawn, which would be at the current frame rate.
 
Heretic

Heretic

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bvlbvl said:
I know that 2D gauges run at 18 Hz (even if that is not fix!, i see 2D gauges run faster if framerate is limited to 60Hz or more!) and 3D gauges run at 30 Hz. But there are also 3D gauges that run smoother or not so smooth (despite they possibly all run at the same 30Hz(?) - so there may me techniques that make gauges smoother than usual.
Click to expand...

As Ed said, 2D and 3D gauges are drawn at framerate and data updates for 2D gauges are done at 18 Hz.

It is possibly not as simpel as "2D = 18fps, 3D = 30fps" - smooth gauge movement may be more than framerate.
Click to expand...

Keyframes in the gauge animations may also play a role.

The question is what techniques make gauges so smooth like the ones by RealAir Simulations. And so i asked this question in a developer forum, not in on of the bigger ones.
Click to expand...

Lowering your expectations or running at more than 30 FPS is a start. If you want ultrasmooth gauges, get a real pilot license.

(BTW @Heretic: Who is the worst fsx developer?)
Click to expand...

Always the one who asks.
 
Ronald

Ronald

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..Not certain why you even begin to question my statement...
Click to expand...
Then let me explain: I've learned in my life that:
- "when one does not ask, one does not get"
- "when one dares to ask (a) question(s), there is a possibility that one might get the answer too"
and theryby one can learn from other, more knowledgable and experienced people on that subject, gain new insights and get wiser in the process WarpD.
My questions where never intented to doubt on anything you are contributing to this discussion. My questions where only intended to find out the source from which you yourself have learned it too, so I would be able to read-up and learn on the topic, since I want to be able to create my own C++ and XML gauges too in the future for my own projects.

And, since i've already discovered that the documentation on most "SDK's" are not 100% accurate, or that some topics (like this one) are even un-documented, I want to thank you WarpD for sharing your coding_wisdom with me/the rest of us.

but I know it to be fact because I write gauge code for FSX/Prepar3D and have done so for many years. The PRE_UPDATE cycle is the data cycle and it gets called 18 times per second. the PRE_DRAW is the actual render cycle and it gets called as often as the sim wants the gauge to be redrawn, which would be at the current frame rate.
Click to expand...
Now that - "18 times per second" - does sound familiar to me, like the old interrupt(1C)routine i've used back in the MS-DOS days.
- http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/ug/interrupts/inthandlers1.html
- https://courses.engr.illinois.edu/ece390/books/artofasm/artofasm.html
>>
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd262188.aspx - ESP SDK - "PRE_DRAW function"
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd145203(v=vs.85).aspx - Windows GDI
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533798(v=vs.85).aspx - GDI+ Reference
Reference
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms533802(v=vs.85).aspx - Using GDI+ examples
- https://www.codeproject.com/search.aspx?q=gdi+&x=0&y=0&sbo=kw - C++ GDI example codeprojects
- http://www.functionx.com/win32/ - Win32 GDI tutorials
 
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