Several Questions about Making Changes to Ground Markings Using Sketchup and MCX

[kmanning]

Hi,

It's the material editor indeed. If you scroll down the textures section of the setting you can just enter the name of any additional texture you want. In the screenshot below I typed a new texture for the bump map.

View attachment 54201

Hi Arno,

Thanks for your help. I understand it better now. But it did not do what I expected. I had it in mind that it would replace the ground markings with mines, but it doesn't do that. I didn't think about it using the same texture sheet and that's what it does. Although it uses this texture sheet to mark the numbers and letter on the ground, to change it, that has to be done inside the model, which I have successfully done. At least I have a better understanding of how to add the textures.

If you look at the second photo from the top where I show the top down view of the airport, you'll see there's this goestly, or blooming appearance, surrounded by the rest of the airport, and this is the only issue I'm having. I've tried everything in the book I can think of, and still have not fixed it. Let me explain what I think is happening, and I want to see if you agree.

There are several files, I think at different layers, with the same file names. For example, there are 3 files with the same name kdfw_23, 3 files with the same name kdfw_24, 5 files with the same file name kdfw_32, and 3 files with the same name kdfw_33. Each one highlights a different part in MCX, and there is one for each of the 4 names that does not highlight at all. When the textures are exported from MCX, it exports all 27 textures. When they're exported from Sketchup, it only exports 17 textures. This time, instead of having 3 or 5 textures of the same name or layers, there is only one for each of the file names, kdfw_23, kdfw_24, kdfw_32, and kdfw_33, and this gets imported back into MCX. It appears to me that Sketchup has taken the files with the same file name and combined them into one texture. I've tried setting "Collapse Model Parts" to True in the Options but has not made any difference. If this could cause the issue I'm having above, is there anything I can do to correct that? The only thing I can think of is to rename those files with the same file names with a different file name. But I'm not sure if that'll work. Could this cause the issue I'm having or does that have anything to do with it?

Ken.

 

[arno]

Hi,

I think what you mean is that additional textures like bump and specular textures are lost when going to SketchUp. I mentioned this before already, all FS specific settings will be lost. Did you try to make the material template to restore them all?

So in the material editor you go to the Material Template Editor:

Then you click on the arrow next to new and select the material you want to base the template on. This is your existing material. It will copy all settings to the template. Just give the template a convenient name.

Textures are not copied over to the template by default. So you will have to enter the correct textures names in the right panel and then press the Add property button to put them in the template as well.

Now after working in SketchUp, you can use this template to restore all material settings exactly the same.

 

[kmanning]

I think what you mean is that additional textures like bump and specular textures are lost when going to SketchUp.

Let me explain what I'm referring to:

Here's the original model:

In the photo below, I open the Material Editor and select the first kdfw_23 in the list. I also checked the box "Highlight Selected," so you can see what's being selected in the model preview:

The first thing I want you to note is that there are 3 textures with the same name kdfw_23 in the list. But each one has a different property setting. I guess you can call these layers, and I guess this is the first layer on top. Now look at the second kdfw_23 in the list shown below:

Notice what is highlighted now, and this appears to be the layer below the first one above. This layer has a slight different property setting than the one above, namely "Assume Vertical Normal" and Bump Scale, and this one does not have the tarmac bump texture under Textures as the one above. So, every though they have the same name kdfw_23, there are some differences in the property settings and they're at different layers, if my thinking is correct. Now note the 3rd kdfw_23 in the list:

This one does not highlight but has a different property setting than the one above, mainly the "Alfa Test." These textures having the same name also apply to kdfw_24, kdfw_32, and kdfw_33. Here's the texture sheet for all 3 of the kdfw_23:

From what I see here, all 3 of the kdfw_23 uses this same texture sheet, but have different layers with different property settings. It appears that it is these different layers that are being lost upon exporting from MCX. But when I export them as a tiff file, here are the textures that are exported from MCX:

Here, there are a total of 27 textures that were exported from MCX. It looks like all of the textures were exported but I'm not sure about the different layers. Now in Sketchup I import the model and textures that I've saved to a folder.


Now here's the original model as imported into Sketchup:

In the image below, I removed 2 layers so that the ground marking letters and numbers can be seen:

In the image above, I temporarily remove the first 2 layers to have access to the box where I need to make changes to the ground marking. In the image below, I use Texture and Position to move the number 9 into the 3rd box. Originally, it was C32.

Now, I replace the layers and export the model. Now note here how the textures were exported from Sketchup:

Here, there are now 17 textures, and there names have been changed. Well, I can only upload 10 files so let me continue in the next post.

Ken

 

[kmanning]

Hi Arno,

To continue, here's what's imported into MCX after exporting the model from Sketchup:

In the image below, I open the Material Editor and selected the same highlighted top left image as I did in the original. But this time, noticed that everything, or all the layers, are highlighted and there is only 1 file instead of 3:

As you can see, both the top and lower layer are highlighted in this single file, and it's not separated into 3 different textures, or layers, which have different property settings. In the original, only the top layer was highlighted. It looks like there is no way to assign 3 different property settings using just this one file. I wanted to go over everything here so that you may have a better understanding of what I'm referring to.

So in the material editor you go to the Material Template Editor

Then you click on the arrow next to new and select the material you want to base the template on. This is your existing material. It will copy all settings to the template. Just give the template a convenient name.

So, based on what I've discussed regarding the 3 separate texture files, or layers, using the same name, and each one having a different property setting, it seems to me that in order to restore the model back to the way it was before, I would need to have these 3 separate file, or layers, imported back into MCX after making the changes in Sketchup. But what I wonder is that when Sketchup combines these textures, or layers, into 1 and them having different property settings, will that cause issue when it's imported back into MCX? You see, the problem is that since the 3 have different property settings under Alfa Text, for example, how is it possible to assign all 3 property settings into one file, and have them at different layers? The only way is to have 3 separate files with the same name having the different layers. Do I have the correct understanding on this, and can I use the Material Template Editor to create 3 separate properties, and add them to the Properties list in the Material Editor?

Ken.

 

[arno]

Hi,

I see you mean. Since the FS specific material settings are lost on export, MCX will have only one part and material on import, instead of three.

The only work around would be to export each part separately. Since SketchUp doesn't support the FS specific settings there's nothing else you can do.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:


Please note that according to:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\texture\texture.cfg

[fltsim]
fallback.1=..\..\..\..\FSdreamteam\KDFW\texture
fallback.2=..\..\..\..\..\..\FSdreamteam\KDFW\texture


...the original textures mapped onto this FDSDT custom SimObject:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf\KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl


...are all located in:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Fsdreamteam\KDFW\texture\ sub-folder


...and that multiple textures are mapped onto the above cited KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl, in addition to:

KDFW_det10.dds



In MCX Material Editor, the {Properties} and {Textures} tabs vertically list the textures mapped onto the currently displayed 3D model


In MCX Material Editor {Properties} tab, the Left side window pane lists the textures mapped onto the currently displayed 3D model


In MCX Material Editor {Properties} tab, the Right side window panes list mapped texture Material 'Properties' (aka "settings")



Since the above cited KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl is a FSX SimObject, we are not working with PBR Materials.


I believe we may need Arno to explain whether KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl as a FSX SimObject ...uses "multi-texturing" and shared T-verts


I also believe we may need Arno to explain whether / why MCX derives / creates a 3rd texture Material from ex: (2) original mapped texture files:

KDFW_23.dds

KDFW_22_lm.dds


It is important we distinguish Faces / Edges from the texture Materials mapped onto them, when a 3D model is imported into Sketchup.


PS: You may wish to review this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models imported to Sketchup:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/why-am-i-getting-__auto-textures-in-sketchup.441466/


...as well as this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models exported by Sketchup:

https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=40397



[EDITED]

In particular, you may wish to review the discussion on that type of scenario in this post by "TIG":

http://sketchucation.com/forums/vie...dbc36315f8faf7a285f4f1e84651&start=30#p447334

[END_EDIT]


Additionally, to inspect the graphic texture file attributes of a <Auto>_? Material mapped onto a 3D model after imported to Sketchup, see:

https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=1089



GaryGB

 

[arno]

I believe we may need Arno to explain whether KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl as a FSX SimObject ...uses "multi-texturing" and shared T-verts


I also believe we may need Arno to explain whether / why MCX derives / creates a 3rd texture from ex: (2) original mapped texture files:

KDFW_23.dds

KDFW_22_lm.dds

I can only state how MCX works in these discussions.

I do not own the addon you are discussing here, so I have no knowledge how it uses textures and such. Also I think it is ethically not correct to publicly reverse engineer how a specific developer made his product.

 

[GaryGB]

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ngs-using-sketchup-and-mcx.446617/post-835596

I can only state how MCX works in these discussions.

I do not own the addon you are discussing here, so I have no knowledge how it uses textures and such. Also I think it is ethically not correct to publicly reverse engineer how a specific developer made his product.

Thanks for that clarification, Arno.


Beyond some yet-to-be-defined extent of detailed discussion of the FSDT methods used to develop this particular custom 3D Model, I agree.

That is why I repeatedly made it clear to Ken in all threads he has opened involving reverse engineering this FSDT SimObject, that IMHO, such an endeavor is "impractical", and that he should instead pursue implementing his own custom G-Polys to 'cover up' the yet-to-be-updated FSDT KDFW ground markings in question.

[EDITED]

That said, if Ken verifies his work-flow and finds that MCX derives / creates a 3rd texture Material from ex: (2) original mapped texture files:

KDFW_23.dds

KDFW_22_lm.dds


...IMHO, an issue central to the topic under discussion here merits further explanation as to "how MCX works" when it processes a FSX SimObject (not necessarily FSDT KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl discussed above) such that a 3rd texture Material is yielded / mapped onto a 3D model.

[END_EDIT]


GaryGB

 

[tgibson]

Gary,

MCX does not derive or create 3 texture files. It uses the same single texture file (and LM texture) three different ways, applied to 3 different sets of parts. Multiple materials do not mean multiple textures. As Arno says, unfortunately these differing material properties are lost during the OP's work flow, and thus the now identical materials are then combined as one listing in the Material Editor.

 

[arno]

Gary,

I think you are confusing a number of things here.

First, there is no such things as a FSX SimObject MDL. There is just an MDL and this file is the same whether it is used for a scenery object, aircraft or a SimObject. Those are all the same in FSX. It's only that certain features might only be supported when used as SimObject.

I think you are also mixing the concept of material and texture. Those are not the same. A texture is just a reference to a file that can be used for the diffuse, specular, bump, detail, environment or fresnel representation in a material. But a material is more than a texture, it also has a lot of other material settings. Once only one of these settings is different you already get a second material in the MDL file.

So with just using 1 texture, I can already make 10 different materials, just by varying some of the material properties. All these materials are stored in the MDL file and MCX will read and show them. So that you see two textures here, but three materials is nothing weird. It just means that are three materials with different settings that all use the same two texture sheets.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

 

[GaryGB]

Several Questions about Making Changes to Ground Markings Using Sketchup and MCX

Hi, It's the material editor indeed. If you scroll down the textures section of the setting you can just enter the name of any additional texture you want. In the screenshot below I typed a new texture for the bump map. Hi Arno, Thanks for your help. I understand it better now. But it did...

www.fsdeveloper.com

Gary,

MCX does not derive or create 3 texture files. It uses the same single texture file (and LM texture) three different ways, applied to 3 different sets of parts. Multiple materials do not mean multiple textures. As Arno says, unfortunately these differing material properties are lost during the OP's work flow, and thus the now identical materials are then combined as one listing in the Material Editor.

Hi Tom:

Thanks for offering your interpretation that I do, indeed, understand.


Please note that when I posted above, I omitted the word "Material" directly adjacent to the word texture in the context you refer to.



FYI: I have edited my latter (2) posts above:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ngs-using-sketchup-and-mcx.446617/post-835590

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ngs-using-sketchup-and-mcx.446617/post-835599


...to convey the meaning I intended ...based on the explanation of Materials as an extension of texture mapping ...here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materials_system

"In Computer graphics, Materials are an enhancement of texture mapping (and a pre-requisite for advanced shading effects) that allows for objects in 3D modelling packages and video games to simulate different types of materials in real life.".



BTW: Please also note the basis for my use of the term Multi-texturing as explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_mapping#Multitexturing

"Multitexturing

Multitexturing is the use of more than one texture at a time on a polygon.[8] For instance, a light map texture may be used to light a surface as an alternative to recalculating that lighting every time the surface is rendered. Microtextures or detail textures are used to add higher frequency details, and dirt maps may add weathering and variation; this can greatly reduce the apparent periodicity of repeating textures. Modern graphics may use more than 10 layers, which are combined using shaders, for greater fidelity. Another multitexture technique is bump mapping, which allows a texture to directly control the facing direction of a surface for the purposes of its lighting calculations; it can give a very good appearance of a complex surface (such as tree bark or rough concrete) that takes on lighting detail in addition to the usual detailed coloring. Bump mapping has become popular in recent video games, as graphics hardware has become powerful enough to accommodate it in real-time.[9]"


GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Arno:

Sorry for the editing omissions in my latter (2) posts above, as cited (and now edited) in my reply to Tom immediately above.


Indeed, I used the term "FSX SimObject MDL" purposely to raise the question as to whether Multi-texturing may be used in the MDL that contains the ground markings which Ken has been trying to update (for his own use, exclusively on his own computer) ...because, as you stated:

Several Questions about Making Changes to Ground Markings Using Sketchup and MCX

Hi, It's the material editor indeed. If you scroll down the textures section of the setting you can just enter the name of any additional texture you want. In the screenshot below I typed a new texture for the bump map. Hi Arno, Thanks for your help. I understand it better now. But it did...

www.fsdeveloper.com

First, there is no such things as a FSX SimObject MDL. There is just an MDL and this file is the same whether it is used for a scenery object, aircraft or a SimObject. Those are all the same in FSX. It's only that certain features might only be supported when used as SimObject.

[EDITED]

Perhaps Ken now discerns whether / when / why ...MCX derives / creates a 3rd texture Material from (2) original mapped SimObject textures ?

[END_EDIT]

Thanks for helping to clarify things a bit.

GaryGB

 

[arno]

Gary,

You still don't get it. MCX doesn't make three materials from two in the mdl. The mdl has those three materials already. They just use the same two textures.

And yes, multi textures, like bump or detail maps, are supported in any mdl file for FSX. SimObject or not.

 

[kmanning]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to thank you all for all the help y'all given me.

Before I go farther, there's one thing I need to mention that I probably should have already mentioned. When I import the original KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl for the first time, I get a warning message that says: "ObjectRenderer: Warning: Failed to load texture GlobalEnvTest.dds." Is this anything to be concerned with? Remember, this is from the original model.


Well, it looks like I've solved the issue that I had regarding the blooming appearance that I was having:

But now, there's another problem, and it's likely because I did not export the textures correctly, or use the correct names. Here are some images below:

Notice the streaks in the ground, and it looks like some of the textures, or layers, did not lay correctly, or something. In the image below, this is what I did. I also included the warning message that I referred to above:

Arno had mention something about bump textures in a previous post and I happened to notice that my property settings did not include that as well as the tarmac dds and the tarmac bump. dds that was in the original. So, I opened 2 MCX programs, one being from Sketchup that I'm working on, and the other being the original, so that I can enter the correct property settings into the one from Sketchup. What I'm concerned with is that since the properties from the original has, for example, 3 kdfw_32 to choose from, which one do I choose? The one I've chose is the one that highlighted the quadrant I was working, and some of them do not highlight the entire square. In the original model, you can highlight the tarmac or the grass layer independently, but you cannot do that when imported from Sketchup. It highlight both the tarmac and the gass, and remember, these 2 have different property settings, but I used the property settings from the original that represented the tarmac. I highlighted the area where C39 is located. Now here's my concern. The Diffuse Texture __auto_10.dds is the one from Sketchup. There were no bump, tarmac, nor specular textures shown here, and since Arno mention that in a previous post, I thought I would add this to my property and see what happens, but I used the original texture names to copy them into mine. When I added these, that seem to have corrected the problem that I was having regarding the blooming effect, or whatever you call it. But it still does not look right. By the way, just to be sure, do I need to click the Apply button when I add the textures? I'm thinking it's applied when I press enter or go to the next line.

Take a look at this image below:

Here, my plane is positioned where the model ends at the edge. Off my right wing and going towards C39, everything looks streaky and some detail looks like they're missing. Off my left wing is the rest of the airport that has the right look and original appearance.

Correct me if I'm not doing this right but when I export the textures from the Material Editor, I export them to Addon Manager\FsDreamTeam\KDFW\Texture, and the mdl to Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf.

I export them to their original locations, and here's the thing regarding the textures. My textures names have a different name than the original, but having the same texture, and wondered if they could conflict with each other. Should I use the auto texture names or should I change them to the original texture names and write over them? Of course I have the originals backed up. I didn't know if this could be an issue. What's strange to me is that in the original texture folder, regarding kdfw_23, kdfw_24, kdfw_32, and kdfw_33, there are only a day and night textures, but in MCX, it shows 3 or more for each one in the properties, and they appear to layers with different properties.

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

Hi Ken:


Please note that according to:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\texture\texture.cfg

[fltsim]
fallback.1=..\..\..\..\FSdreamteam\KDFW\texture
fallback.2=..\..\..\..\..\..\FSdreamteam\KDFW\texture


...the original textures mapped onto this FDSDT custom SimObject:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf\KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl


...are all located in:

[FSDT install path]\FSDT\Addon Manager\Fsdreamteam\KDFW\texture\ sub-folder


...and that multiple textures are mapped onto the above cited KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl, in addition to:

KDFW_det10.dds



In MCX Material Editor, the {Properties} and {Textures} tabs vertically list the textures mapped onto the currently displayed 3D model


In MCX Material Editor {Properties} tab. the Left side window pane lists the textures mapped onto the currently displayed 3D model


In MCX Material Editor {Properties} tab. the Right side window panes list mapped texture Material 'Properties' (aka "settings")

Yes, I understand.

Since the above cited KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl is a FSX SimObject, we are not working with PBR Materials.

I don't know if this makes any difference but I'm not exporting to FSX. I'm exporting to P3D. You may be referring to something else but wanted to be sure you know this is for P3D. Of course, both versions use the same Addon Manager.

You may wish to review this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models imported to Sketchup:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/why-am-i-getting-__auto-textures-in-sketchup.441466/


...as well as this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models exported by Sketchup:

https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=40397


Additionally, to inspect the graphic texture file attributes of a <Auto>_? Material mapped onto a 3D model after imported to Sketchup, see:

https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=1089

[END_EDIT]

Thanks, I sure will.

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

PS: You may wish to review this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models imported to Sketchup:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/why-am-i-getting-__auto-textures-in-sketchup.441466/


...as well as this thread on the topic of <Auto>_? texture Materials being created for 3D models exported by Sketchup:

https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=40397

Hi Gary,

I've installed this plugin and I'm still getting the __auto- file names in my textures. Does this plugin supposed to prevent that and use the original texture name?

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

Hi Arno,

I have a few questions.


1. Where is the Mass Texture Editor in MCX that will allow me to rename the textures, or do I do that from the material template editor, after I import the wrong "auto" file names from Sketchup?

2. When making changes in the material settings, do I need to use the material template editor or can I do the same thing using the material editor? I've been using the material editor to make those changes and I was wondering if I should have been using the material template editor to do that, or if that makes any difference.

3. Since Sketchup exports textures with __auto- file names, and these get exported into FS using MCX, do I need to delete or remove the original ones having the same textures to that I won't have 2 of the same textures, even though they have different file names? For example, __auto_10 generated by Sketchup is the same texture as kdfw_32 in the original file.

Ken.

 

[tgibson]

1. I've never seen a feature in MCX that lets you rename more than one texture at a time. If there is, hopefully someone will chime in.

AFAIK if you create a template it will rename the textures to the same names each time you use it, something you probably don't want. I rename textures by:
a. Create a copy of the original texture, giving it the new name. In your case, you can use the original texture instead - just have it in the same folder as the auto- texture.
b. Import the object into MCX.
c. Go to the Material Editor
d. Click on the original file name at the left.
e. On the right, scroll down until the texture name is displayed. Click on it, and click the ... button and browse to the new (old) named version, or type the new (old) name into the box directly.
f. Export the object.

2. Whether you use the template editor or do it directly in the Material Editor makes no difference. When you Apply a texture template all you are doing is filling in information automatically into the Material Editor.

3. It doesn't matter if the auto-file remains after conversion, but it's not doing anything so I would go ahead and delete it.

Hope this helps,

 

[GaryGB]

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ngs-using-sketchup-and-mcx.446617/post-835629

Gary,

You still don't get it. MCX doesn't make three materials from two in the mdl. The mdl has those three materials already. They just use the same two textures.

And yes, multi textures, like bump or detail maps, are supported in any mdl file for FSX. SimObject or not.

Hi Arno:

At this point I am not certain as to whether "you still don't get" what I meant to convey in my latter posts above.

In the mean time, I believe the opening sentence in your reply quoted above merits reconsideration, as it makes an inappropriate assertion which wrongly characterizes another person's internal comprehension ...which you do not know.

IMHO, it would not be a good idea to set such an example for others when posting in these forums in a "civil" manner.


But even though English is the declared language to be used in these forums, AFAIK, since English is not your native language, beyond my apparently insufficient efforts thus far at making a few edits above to clarify a few things, perhaps we might achieve a better mutual understanding at some point in the future when I have more free time available.

At such time, I might then endeavor to more clearly explain what I posted and the basis for doing so ...in an effort to help Ken better comprehend the work-flow involved in the task he has undertaken with this project.

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ngs-using-sketchup-and-mcx.446617/post-835701

Before I go farther, there's one thing I need to mention that I probably should have already mentioned. When I import the original KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl for the first time, I get a warning message that says: "ObjectRenderer: Warning: Failed to load texture GlobalEnvTest.dds." Is this anything to be concerned with? Remember, this is from the original model.

Hi Ken:

Note that:

MCX Menu > Options > Texture Settings > Path

...by default already includes the path to [FSX install path]\Texture\GlobalEnvTest.dds


Curiously, I also observed that, somehow, MCX "still" fails to detect GlobalEnvTest.dds when loading:

[FSDT install path]\Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf\KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl


I suggest that you manually copy:


[FSX install path]\Texture\GlobalEnvTest.dds

...to:

[FSDT install path]\Addon Manager\Fsdreamteam\KDFW\texture\ ...sub-folder


...before loading the above KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl object into MCX.

GaryGB