A Great Extension or Tool Add-on for SketchUp

[Pyscen]

Hello,...

I have come across a great Extension (Plug-in) for SketchUp users that plan on Exporting to Blender:

http://extensions.sketchup.com/en/content/quadface-tools

The Extension/plugin is called QuadFace Tool,... even comes with an ".obj" exporter. Exporting to Obj will allow you to import it into Blender... and it does great in making the faces into quads for easy edit when into Blender. Check it out!

 

[TheAxeman]

Nice!! I will have a play around with that later.

 

[GaryGB]

Hello,...

I have come across a great Extension (Plug-in) for SketchUp users that plan on Exporting to Blender:

http://extensions.sketchup.com/en/content/quadface-tools

The Extension/plugin is called QuadFace Tool,... even comes with an ".obj" exporter. Exporting to Obj will allow you to import it into Blender... and it does great in making the faces into quads for easy edit when into Blender. Check it out!

For detailed info regarding what the "QuadFace Tools" plugin does:

http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39442

https://bitbucket.org/thomthom/quadface-tools/wiki/Home

https://bitbucket.org/thomthom/quadface-tools/wiki/Overview#!quadface-definition


NOTE: This plugin is also useful to clean up un-wanted 'face diagonals / triangles' via a "remove triangulation" function ...for faces which were triangulated by 3D model import / export scripts in Sketchup or other 3D modeling applications


BTW: For Sketchucation.com download links that do not attempt (and/or fail upon) a Google Account login to the "Extension Warehouse":

http://sketchucation.com/pluginstore?listtype=1&author=140&category=0



FYI: For another convenient "companion" plugin by the same author ...to be used with ex: "QuadFace Tools" plugin, see: "AutoSmooth":

http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50739


...And another plugin by the same author to assist in UV mapping textures on quad faces in Sketchup: "UV Toolkit"

http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18992


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[=rk=]

To be clear; FSX renders triangular polygons only and if one relies Sketchup's ability to recognize coplanar triangles as distinct polygons, they can become quite surprised to see the polygon count double when a model is imported into a editing tool like MCX. This quote is from the bitbucket.org link in the above post:
"Quads in SketchUp
This toolset is an attempt to begin on such a suite of tools to let SketchUp users work with quads. My approach is conceptually simple: When two faces are separated with a soft edge (smooth only affects shading) then the two faces are treated as one Unit. Click one and you select both and the Entity Info window says you have selected a Surface. Based on that, here is how I define quads in SketchUp"

Also the smoothing function is native to the Sketchup render and does not affect the models appearance in other 3d software; as it says above, "smooth only affects shading."

 

[GaryGB]

To be clear; FSX renders triangular polygons only and if one relies Sketchup's ability to recognize coplanar triangles as distinct polygons, they can become quite surprised to see the polygon count double when a model is imported into a editing tool like MCX. This quote is from the bitbucket.org link in the above post:

"Quads in SketchUp
This toolset is an attempt to begin on such a suite of tools to let SketchUp users work with quads. My approach is conceptually simple: When two faces are separated with a soft edge (smooth only affects shading) then the two faces are treated as one Unit. Click one and you select both and the Entity Info window says you have selected a Surface. Based on that, here is how I define quads in SketchUp"

Hi Rick:

IIUC, you refer to a initial OpenGL render by ModelConverterX of a 3D model imported from 'certain' 3D file formats exported by Sketchup ?


AFAIK, after MCX export, MDLs are SDK-compiled for rendering in MSFS / P3D via the DirectX sub-system, and ALL 3D (and 2D) faces will ultimately be rendered as triangles at run time, regardless of whether they were initially modeled as "quad faces" prior to SDK-compilation and rendering at run time by MSFS / P3D ...via DirectX:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/dx-10-tweaks-wireframe-cool-stuff-from-paul-roussin.432720/

< Images linked from the above post at FSDeveloper by =Hollywood= >

NOTE: Thomas Thomassen (aka "thomthom" who is now on the Trimble Sketchup development team) further responded within 4 days of initial release to posted end-user interest in expanding use of his "QuadFaceTools" Plugin ...by adding these features:

BTW: < Being a rather busy fellow, apparently he forgot to update the 'version number' in the original release thread title >

Re: [Plugin] QuadFaceTools (0.1.0b) — 14 August 2011
by thomthom » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:05 am

http://sketchucation.com/forums/pos...p=349126&sid=f2fe90548fb6e07b88ae7864c47a6bcf

Daniel S wrote: Thank you Thomas!!!

A question: Is there a way to force the vertices of the quad to be coplanar?

If a quad consist of two triangles rotate this two triangles until they lay on the same plane and then delete the shared edge.

Is that possible?

Daniel S

I added a function that projects the selected faces ( any face ) to a best fit plane.

( Best fit plane is based on the selection ).

It also ensures that quads connected to the selection are triangulated so they don't break due to SketchUp's AutoFold feature.

Then I added a separate Remove Triangulation function.

Both will be present in the next release. (Among other updates/changes

FYI: As detailed on:

https://bitbucket.org/thomthom/quadface-tools/wiki/Features

...under the following section, one can read the authors explanation of the expanded feature set:

Wiki
Clone wiki
QuadFace Tools / Features
View History
Features
Access

• Tools > QuadFace Tools
• View > Toolbars > QuadFace Tools
• Context Menu > QuadFace Tools* (Version 0.2.0)

* Enable Context Menu from Tools > QuadFace Tools > Preferences

Documentation

Flip Diagonals
Added in Version 0.5.0

Flips the internal triangulation of the selected Quads.

Triangulate Selected QuadFaces
Ensures that all the selected quads are triangulated. Any native quads with soft bordering edges will result in edges that are not soft and instead hidden.

Remove Triangulation
Added in Version 0.2.0

Converts the selected planar quads into native quads with no triangulation.

Make Planar
Added in Version 0.2.0

Projects all the selected faces to a best fit plane based on the selected faces. Ensures connected quads are not broken.

Convert Connected Mesh to QuadFaces
Added in Version 0.2.0

Attempts to automatically convert the mesh into a set of quads. Select a native quad or two triangles making up a quad as the origin. This operation may be slow!

Convert Blender Quads to QuadFace Quads
Added in Version 0.2.0

Blender quads imported into SketchUp needs to be converted in order to be workable with QuadFace Tools.



NOTE: Some recent version feature changes described in the original release thread are not yet documented in the "QuadFace Tools" wiki, ex:

Re: [Plugin] QuadFaceTools
by thomthom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:39 am

"I'm currently working on a OBJ importer that import QuadFace Tools quads. This would let you import and export quad based meshes to and from SketchUp.

I've still got some testing to do before I release it. But if you send me some OBJ files I can run them through the current development build."

Re: [Plugin] QuadFaceTools
by thomthom » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:35 pm

"Version 0.9.0

• OBJ Importer (File > Import... > "OBJ Files - QuadFace Tools"

http://sketchucation.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=323&p=571363

Also the smoothing function is native to the Sketchup render and does not affect the models appearance in other 3d software; as it says above, "smooth only affects shading."

Possibly you are referring to discussions and linked info in this recent and indirectly related thread ?

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/decrease-polygon-edges-lines.434139/#post-716644

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/decrease-polygon-edges-lines.434139/page-2#post-717240


IMHO, it is reasonably evident from the posts in the above linked thread (and the other linked threads within that thread), that geometry of groups / components which may be used for "smoothing", are able to be retained by ModelConverterX ...for a 3D model imported from 'certain' 3D file formats exported by Sketchup with a hierarchy structure yet-to-be-fully-explored by the FS development community, and hopefully also by Arno.


But, certainly one might wonder whether edges that are automatically hidden when "softened" (but still 'exist' in a model), will be exported at all- or exported 'completely'- ...unless one specifically takes steps to ensure such "hidden" edges are:

* displayed globally in the Sketchup workspace along with any explicitly hidden geometry, when you enable the Hidden Geometry menu item on the View menu:

Sketchup Menu > View pull-down menu > Hidden Geometry


...and/or if one will:

* Triple-click on geometry to ensure both hidden and unhidden geometry are selected for "smoothing groups" prior to performing a 3D model export


...And if one 'checks' the check-box for "Export Hidden Geometry" during a 3D model export by navigating:

Sketchup Menu > Export > 3D Model > {Export Model dialog} > [Options Button] > {Export Options dialog}



See also: Soften Edges dialog box

http://help.sketchup.com/en/article/114940


[EDITED]

However, since MDLs for aircraft and scenery objects both use triangulated geometry and are both capable of being implemented as "SimObjects" in MSFS FSX / P3D, IMHO, one might reasonably expect to be able to implement via the SDK compilers, "smoothing groups" for scenery objects ...just as one might do for aircraft:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/shading-and-smoothing-issues.433954/#post-711593

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/so-why-is-this-happening.433916/

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search/1044130/?q=smoothing&t=post&o=date

[END_EDIT]


PS: IIUC, despite the "Quad" workflow differences some ex: Blender users report as 'preferable' during the 3D modeling process, ultimately they may be compelled to use yet other methods to "pre-triangulate" 3D models for use in DirectX simulations or games such as MSFS / P3D if they are not using the native SDK ex: "X2MDL" compiler.

https://www.blender.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24944


Hope this helps clarify the feature set of this group of Sketchup Ruby script plugins for users who intend to work exclusively in Sketchup, as well as those users importing from / exporting to ..."other" 3D modeling applications.

GaryGB

 

[=rk=]

"Smooth affects shading" is a very clear term. Shading data that Sketchup "exports" is not available to the MSFS render whatsoever. The only shading data that the MSFS render engine can use is applied directly to textures using an algorithm called "anisotropic occlusion" which is available only in extremely high end 3d applications like Autodesk 3ds Max, costing thousands of dollars - and that is the reason professionals use it. You can find extensions for Sketchup that perform a similar function that are also very, imo, costly.
"Export Hidden Geometry" does not burn shades into textures; it exports the Sketchup "hidden poly-line" concept that is absolutely and unequivocally meaningless to the MSFS graphics engine, regardless whether someone's act of exploding a model increases the poly count.
Beyond that, I see none, nor advocate any advantage to using a quad poly smoothing system that gives modelers the impression their geometry looks any softer, smoother, or rounder than it actually is, only to find the number of polygons to be rendered has likely doubled for a model created for the intended simulator - granted that it might be fun to use with Blender as the OP expressed.

 

[GaryGB]

"Smooth affects shading" is a very clear term. Shading data that Sketchup "exports" is not available to the MSFS render whatsoever. The only shading data that the MSFS render engine can use is applied directly to textures using an algorithm called "anisotropic occlusion" which is available only in extremely high end 3d applications like Autodesk 3ds Max, costing thousands of dollars - and that is the reason professionals use it. You can find extensions for Sketchup that perform a similar function that are also very, imo, costly.

Hi again, Rick:

Are you referring to what, AFAIK, is instead properly termed "Ambient Occlusion" (aka "AO") ?

https://www.google.com/#q=3DSMAX "anisotropic occlusion"

https://www.google.com/#q=blender ambient occlusion

"Export Hidden Geometry" does not burn shades into textures; it exports the Sketchup "hidden poly-line" concept that is absolutely and unequivocally meaningless to the MSFS graphics engine, regardless whether someone's act of exploding a model increases the poly count.

Beyond that, I see none, nor advocate any advantage to using a quad poly smoothing system that gives modelers the impression their geometry looks any softer, smoother, or rounder than it actually is, only to find the number of polygons to be rendered has likely doubled for a model created for the intended simulator - granted that it might be fun to use with Blender as the OP expressed.

Indeed; I have not studied Blender in any detail whatsoever, but my initial "impression" is, that it, IMHO, dramatically increases ones workload with the complexity of its learning curve and procedural work-flow when compared to what can be achieved more easily in Sketchup (both with- and without- Ruby script plugins) ...for purposes of 3D modeling static scenery objects.


And, of course, Sketchup is not advertised to natively perform "texture baking" of ex: "Ambient Occlusion" such as Blender does.


But, as to the issue of whether "smoothing groups" and "shading" may actually be utilized by FSX via the DirectX sub-system, perhaps that may be a subject for further 'vigorous discussion' when more available time permits ?

GaryGB

 

[=rk=]

Yes, "ambient", easy enough to clear up in one sentence, thank you - and if Blender bakes, then that is exactly why Doug wants to import into Blender, it allows him to bake the shades he created in Sketchup into his textures, thus allowing the shade data to be used by the MSFS render, assuming he's made the proper conversions. Very valuable, with a strong caveat for Blender proficiency.
It is the only way graduated shade data, obtained by either ambient occlusion or "refined polygon edge line definition", can be used by the MSFS graphics engine. There is no issue and we as artists and developers have a responsibility to convey relevant and useful information for people wanting to learn from these forums.

 

[Pyscen]

Hello Rick & Gary...

Just as you both pointed out... SketchUp, as well as Blender, has its faults when comes to the lovely world of FS design, even the original Gmax, which came with FS9, wasn't designed for FS in mind at all...

These 3D design tools work with the help of plugins (MCX , Blender2FSX, etc.). I, personally, have found that Blender is simpler than GMax (considering that GMax is filled with a number of bugs and it crashes alot). SketchUp is much easier. But, animations can not be done in SketchUp at all... So, the reason for this thread, for others, such as myself that are looking for the means of converting SketchUp files to Blender and "Thanks" to Capt_x (his Blender2FSX tool for Blender) and Krispy and Duchy (both for their tutorials on the Blender2FSX tool), we now have it.

Rick , baking textures is a added benefit for sure !

Even though Blender has the power to import ".dae" and ".skp" files... It doesn't import them in a good way (another reason I created this thread: to give another option to others/users using SketchUp).

Pyscen (Doug)

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Doug:

Thanks for sharing the info with others here, so that we all may be more aware of our options to utilize various tools available for FS development !

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717766

"Smooth affects shading" is a very clear term. Shading data that Sketchup "exports" is not available to the MSFS render whatsoever. The only shading data that the MSFS render engine can use is applied directly to textures using an algorithm called "anisotropic occlusion" which is available only in extremely high end 3d applications like Autodesk 3ds Max, costing thousands of dollars - and that is the reason professionals use it. You can find extensions for Sketchup that perform a similar function that are also very, imo, costly.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717805

Yes, "ambient", easy enough to clear up in one sentence, thank you - and if Blender bakes, then that is exactly why Doug wants to import into Blender, it allows him to bake the shades he created in Sketchup into his textures, thus allowing the shade data to be used by the MSFS render, assuming he's made the proper conversions. Very valuable, with a strong caveat for Blender proficiency.
It is the only way graduated shade data, obtained by either ambient occlusion or "refined polygon edge line definition", can be used by the MSFS graphics engine.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717805

...we as artists and developers have a responsibility to convey relevant and useful information for people wanting to learn from these forums.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717766

"Export Hidden Geometry" does not burn shades into textures; it exports the Sketchup "hidden poly-line" concept that is absolutely and unequivocally meaningless to the MSFS graphics engine, regardless whether someone's act of exploding a model increases the poly count.

In keeping with the admonition you asserted above: "we as artists and developers have a responsibility to convey relevant and useful information for people wanting to learn from these forums, I believe it would be best for all of us to explore this subject more extensively to gain a more comprehensive understanding.


At this point in time, I must respectfully disagree with your statements in bold RED text as used in the above quoted contexts, as IMHO, they may prove misleading and confusing to other readers of this thread.


Furthermore, I believe that upon more thorough review of the facts, each of us may find that such 3D MDL data in the 3D hierarchical geometry of MDLs actually is read, processed, and rendered on screen at run time ...to certain and varying extents unique to each version of MSFS and/or P3D.

And personally, I tend to agree with Arno's viewpoint, which appears within his signature on every one of his posts:

"If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done."



PS:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717770

But, as to the issue of whether "smoothing groups" and "shading" may actually be utilized by FSX via the DirectX sub-system, perhaps that may be a subject for further 'vigorous discussion' when more available time permits ?

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717805

There is no issue

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717766

Beyond that, I see none, nor advocate any advantage to using a quad poly smoothing system that gives modelers the impression their geometry looks any softer, smoother, or rounder than it actually is, only to find the number of polygons to be rendered has likely doubled for a model created for the intended simulator - granted that it might be fun to use with Blender as the OP expressed.

I am concerned that you may possibly be mis-interpreting a indirectly-related sub-topic of "smoothing groups" (and how their 3D hierarchical geometry is used by FSX via the DirectX rendering sub-system), with the mechanism by which thomthom's QuadFace Tools works with "quads" (and the incidental suppression of display of the IIUC, always present- but hidden- ...diagonal edge line which inherently subdivides all quads into triangles).

Also, I am concerned that you may possibly be mis-interpreting a indirectly-related sub-topic of "smoothing groups", and how their 3D hierarchical geometry is used by FSX via the DirectX rendering sub-system for camera-position-dependent display of lighting and shading attributes as a function of Normals on 3D faces.


I would once again like to direct your attention to these links in my previous post:

NOTE: Please examine in detail, the linked images in these threads quoted below !

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...-tool-add-on-for-sketchup.434704/#post-717697

[EDITED]

However, since MDLs for aircraft and scenery objects both use triangulated geometry and are both capable of being implemented as "SimObjects" in MSFS FSX / P3D, IMHO, one might reasonably expect to be able to implement via the SDK compilers, "smoothing groups" for scenery objects ...just as one might do for aircraft:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/shading-and-smoothing-issues.433954/#post-711593

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/so-why-is-this-happening.433916/

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search/1044130/?q=smoothing&t=post&o=date

[END_EDIT]

I would also like to direct your attention to this prior thread in which you participated:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/texture-mapping.429353

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/texture-mapping.429353/#post-665316

From the test I did following your lead, seems that "soften edge" had an effect on the object rendered in MCX and the sim (and not only in SU screen).

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/texture-mapping.429353/#post-665330

The triangle count in MCX is slightly less than the original (don't know why).
What I do see is that the softening goes through in MCX and fs.

A few more links on this sub-topic, which IMHO, also merit further review:

Smooth Modifier

"The Smooth modifier provides auto-smoothing based on the angle of adjacent faces. You can apply new smoothing groups to objects.

Smoothing eliminates the facets on geometry by grouping faces into smoothing groups. At render time, faces in the same smoothing group appear as a smooth surface."

http://docs.autodesk.com/3DSMAX/15/...-9037-B595A1188DC8.htm,topicNumber=d30e100726


Smoothing Groups

"Smoothing groups define whether a surface is rendered with sharp edges or smooth surfaces."

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...1244162D-A063-486C-BD9B-168466F6488B-htm.html


Adjusting Normals and Smoothing

"Changing smoothing groups does not alter geometry in any way: it simply changes the way faces and edges are shaded."

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...FF29D920-7338-4614-8A72-B5C94D47889B-htm.html


Soften Edges dialog box

"SketchUp's edges can be softened and smoothed to achieve a real-world appearance. Edges are automatically hidden when softened. Softened edges can also be smoothed rendering the adjoining faces with a smooth tonal gradient."

http://help.sketchup.com/en/article/114940


Certainly such topics are not always immediately comprehensible, but with ongoing study and discussion, I believe that we may all gain new insights.

And let us all beware of the temptation to assert this type of attitude:

"My mind's made up; don't confuse me with the facts !"

GaryGB

 

[Pyscen]

Gary,...

Isn't this already being discussed within another thread? In which, you have already linked to?

 

[GaryGB]

Gary,...

Isn't this already being discussed within another thread? In which, you have already linked to?

Hi Doug:

Indeed, it is (or "was") ...until that indirectly-related sub-topic discussion spread into your thread ...from this one:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/decrease-polygon-edges-lines.434139/page-2



So, as an acknowledgement of your good intentions with the topic of this thread regarding potential use of "Quads" during the 3D modeling phase of scenery creation (whether in Blender or Sketchup), I'd like to again draw attention to at least a few of the important advantages of Quads versus Triangles ...with another couple of "gratuitous links":


http://blog.digitaltutors.com/modeling-with-quads-or-triangles/

Modeling with Quads or Triangles - What Should I Use?


"So why choose quads?"

"...Triangles tend to pose a problem when subdividing geometry to increase resolution and when a mesh will be deformed or animated."

"...It is easier for someone to convert a model made up of quads to triangles than it is for someone to convert a model made up of triangles to quads."


"Edge loops"

"...If an edge loop runs into a triangle, the loop has to end. This breaks the flow of the line and it’s no longer a loop."


"Sculpting"


"...it is easier to predict how the geometry will be affected."

"...work with a predictable quad-based mesh. This also helps build a lower resolution version and accent the model using edge loops."


"Subdividing"

"When subdividing quads, your results are fairly predictable. You have rows and columns made up of four sided polygons and it is easy to see where those polygons will be split in half once it is subdivided.


When you subdivide triangles, things tend to get messy. There really isn’t a visual flow to the model."


"Smoothing"

"If you plan on smoothing your geometry or using a quick smooth preview feature, triangles will produce anomalies across the surface of the mesh. Because of the uneven amount of vertices, the triangle can cause blemishes or pinch the geometry. This similar thing can happen to geometry created with n-gons."


"Animation"

"Quads produce cleaner deformations. Typically, artists will focus on areas where there will be a lot of bending and deforming, such as knees, elbows and wrists, and provide a little extra geometry that will benefit the rig and animation. With Quads, this is easily accomplished by adding or manipulating edge loops.If you have a cluster of triangles in this area, it is harder to add or remove loops that will help benefit the animator. With Triangles, it is also harder to see a clean flow of geometry and they tend to produce sharp angles that can harm the mesh’s appeal. When it comes to animation appeal is important both to the model and the artist who provided the mesh for animation."


"What about hard surface models?"

"When modeling hard surface models, the preference is still to use quads. The main reason: so you can quickly add and remove edge loops. When it comes to UV mapping your model, it is also easier when using Quads. There are less edges to clutter the texture editor when placing UVs.Triangles are not a bad thing. They just have to be used strategically throughout your model. When using them on organic models, it is best to hide triangles where they will not be visible or in areas where very few deformations are happening.A good thing to keep in mind when working in Quads is you can always convert it to triangles. There will be times when triangles will be preferred, an example of this is the final mesh of game assets or characters. In these instances most artists still prefer to work in quads and then convert their final model to a mesh built of triangles."


And, as previously posted, readers of the above tutorial may wish to review this companion guide:

Key 3D Modeling Terminology

http://blog.digitaltutors.com/basic-3d-modeling-terminology/


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[=rk=]

The ability to bake textures alone makes Blender worth exploring as a 3d application, so thanks for making that understood (concisely!) Doug and also for bringing to light extensions and tools that can enhance and facilitate the final goal of realistic models.