FSX Can someone PLEASE BREAK IT DOWN for a newbe. Just spell it out

[Sirgen]

I want to build a scenery for fsx that has a mountain, airport, and shoreline (Beach) pretty close to each other. (Question) Which software or combination of software that will be best (easiest) to do that? I suspect devs use google earth as one. Can you for eg, using GE, collect the elevation data from an area, put it in another program like SbuilderX to get accurate mountains and hills in fsx? If so, where can I find the tutorials? PLEASE HELP!!!
Many thanks in advance.

 

[GaryGB]

at http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201563

Hi guys I recently decided to start building scenery for Fsx using SBuilderX. I thought I'd start with my hometown airport. Everything was going well UNTIL I got to the stage where I had to recreate a mountain which FSX left flat. I have tried setting the various altitudes for each vector of the polygon/s. I have gotten some elevation, but the problem is controlling the size and shape, and keeping the sea from climbing the sides of the mountain. After more than two months of trying different things I've had enough.

1. Is there a tutorial somewhere that can point me in the right direction of building hills and mountains for FSX?
or
2. Is there another piece of software, other than SBX to do that same job described (easier and or better)?

Any help on this will be greatly appreciated

Thanks.

Hello:

Based on your other thread quoted above, you might consider using some sort of (ex: DEM, GeoTIFF) source data to make an FSX compliant terrain mesh using FSX SDK Resample.



[EDITED]

Although it is theoretically possible to create custom terrain from scratch using raster files and/or contour interval data, considerable post-processing with special software is needed to smooth the data for a satisfactory result in FS at run time; thus it is likely far more cumbersome to do that compared to making a FS terrain mesh from DEM data.

Otherwise, special apps do exist which can be used to create DEMs from various data sources, with an option to edit data prior to output; some are mentioned here:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19403&highlight=GRISES

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16087&highlight=GRISES


NOTE: IIRC, the SBuilder utility called BSQToBMP is limited to producing a terrain mesh at max LOD-8 resolution (which is less than that of FSX default at St. Lucia).

So rather than using a BSQ with SBuilder, consider instead converting one's DEM data to GeoTiff for use with FSX SDK Resample utility for higher LOD mesh output:

http://mapsww.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3629


BTW: You might wish to state an airport name or a set of coordinates for the location of your project, so would-be helpers may offer a more informed opinion as to available data sources, and perhaps to suggest how you might best proceed once the "lay of the land" is known for the region of interest.

Be assured though, that there is a wealth of information which can be found on how to make scenery via the Search function here at FSDeveloper, and ex: Google ...if you use the correct query strings.



PS: Based on your original thread here at FSDeveloper, this is at George F. L. Charles Airport (Formerly Vigie Airport) ICAO: TLPC, St. Lucia... am I correct ?

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202460


If in fact the area of interest is TLPC airport in St. Lucia, perhaps the following info may be helpful:

Google Earth "jump" coordinates: 14°01 13N,060°59 35W (14.0202777777777N,60.9930555555555W)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._L._Charles_Airport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucia



FSX already provides a LOD-10 resolution terrain mesh (38.2 Meters between gridded elevation data points) in [FSX install path]\Scenery\0303\Scenery\dem0303.bgl

Most freely available non-USA DEM data is either SRTM (90 Meter) or ASTER-GDEM (30 Meter... but impractical to use at resolutions below 90 Meter due to un-fixed artifacts)

To make a useful custom terrain mesh would no doubt require even more precise DEM source data, so I understand your inclination to make certain terrain features based on other (non-DEM ?) sources to then yield a more detailed terrain rendering for FSX.


FYI: Since higher resolution DEMs have been created from St. Lucia topographic contour interval elevation data, perhaps Page 10 in this study may offer additional ideas and leads:

http://www.caribank.org/titanweb/cdb/webcms.nsf/AllDoc/60316695013ECF0B04257553006BCFFF/$File/LandslideHazardMappingFinal_Report_2-28-06.pdf


It would also be interesting to see how well a 10 Meter DEM might allow FS to render these landmarks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soufrière,_Saint_Lucia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileay248bdriveq.JPG

[END_EDIT]


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[robystar]

Hi,

Well done, that should scare him off, Gary.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi,

Well done, that should scare him off, Gary.

No doubt the work involved in making terrain mesh for non-USA areas can be intimidating at times.

But, I hope he might eventually benefit from exploring the ideas offered here, as I am rather concerned about the potential long-term effects on his brain of all that head-banging (...been there myself way too many times in the past) !

GaryGB

 

[Sirgen]

PS: Based on your original thread here at FSDeveloper, this is at George F. L. Charles Airport (Formerly Vigie Airport) ICAO: TLPC, St. Lucia... am I correct ?

If in fact the area of interest is TLPC airport in St. Lucia, perhaps the following info may be helpful:

GaryGB

Yes Gary, you are correct. It is George F.L. Charles Airport (TLPC) I am racking my brain over. Sorry I left that bit of info out. Thanks for the reply I will give it a good go cause I am determined to do this.

 

[GaryGB]

Hello:

As a followup to my post (and more importantly, to your quoted post) above:

What are the geographic coordinates of the problematic mountain you are trying to model as terrain mesh ?


BTW: If all else fails, one can model the mountain as a FS textured 3D scenery library object <...yes, that actually is possible ! >


PS: I saw your inquiry at AVSIM TerraBuilder Forum; may I ask: did Misho Katulic ever reply to you by PM or E-mail ?

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/364976-terrabuilder-for-fsx/


GaryGB

 

[robystar]

Hi,

You could check if the Santa Lucia TLPC scenery from Strikingsoftware.com comtains the necessary mesh? That would save you a lot of trouble unless you want to go payware or want to figure it out for yourself. In the latter case GaryGB's remarks and links are very valuable.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Robystar:

Thanks for the heads up on Paul Wheeler's fine freeware scenery for that area... I'd not been to his site in a while, and I've been too busy to allocate time for a planned tour in that area via Multi-player; but I hope to do some flying there in the future, and I'm sure I'll enjoy seeing his creations at that time.


FYI: I inspected "PW Sceneries Volume 3 - St Lucia and Martinique":

http://www.strikingsoftware.com/ccount/click.php?id=4


That package does not contain a terrain mesh, and Paul's ReadMe for the package states:

"While this scenery works great with default FSX, I recommend that you use a 3rd party elevation mesh for the Caribbean. A freeware mesh is available at http://www.simviation.com/simviation/static.php?ID=147&page= "


An inspection of the above linked page shows only a 76 Meter (LOD-9) terrain mesh available... which would be less detailed than the default included for St. Lucia.

"South/Central America/Caribbean

FSX Central America - Caribbean - South America 76M Terrain mesh

Part 1. Coverage uses De Ferranti - and Srtm V 2 elevation models Covering from N30 all the way south to included south america and the caribbean. 173MB <-- St. Lucia in this one

Part 2 70MB

Part 3 108MB

Part 4 172MB

Raimondo Taburet"


Perhaps the OP may have an ongoing interest in creating his own more detailed terrain in the area of interest than that which FSX already provides as a LOD-10 resolution terrain mesh (38.2 Meters between gridded elevation data points) in [FSX install path]\Scenery\0303\Scenery\dem0303.bgl ?

Inspection of the above FSX default dem0303.bgl terrain mesh file in TMFViewer shows it contains LODs 2-10 for St. Lucia.

However, IMHO, that data is likely quite a bit older, and AFAIK derived from over-sampled SRTM source data.

So, IMHO, it may be worth the OP's effort to try using the ASTER-GDEM Version 2 as source data for a FSX SDK Resample multi-LOD terrain mesh BGL, and use CVX vector flatten polys at assigned elevations to minimize any grossly visible anomalies for the island of St. Lucia as a whole.

Alternatively, the OP may wish to modify as needed, the specific ex: mountain(s) in his primary area of interest adjacent to the TLPC airport.

In the event the OP may have an interest in pursuing that option for his project, I already have the ASTER-GDEM Version 2 (GeoTIFF DEM) data files for that area available to post for download pending his reply here, affirming intent to use that data in keeping with the terms of the ASTER GDEM distribution agreement of METI and NASA for that data:


"AST_GTM
Distribution Options

Media Type: Ftp Pull
Ftp Pull Media Format: File

Data Usage
Description: The following selection is requested to understand how data are utilized in the context of societal benefit areas defined by the Group on Earth Observation (GEO).

Data Usage: [ Biodiversity ]

ASTER GDEM Policy Agreements

[X] I agree to redistribute the ASTER GDEM *only* to individuals within my organization or project of intended use or in response to disasters in support of the GEO Disaster Theme.

[X] When presenting or publishing ASTER GDEM data, I agree to include "ASTER GDEM is a product of METI and NASA."

Because there are known inaccuracies and artifacts in the data set, please use the product with awareness of its limitations. The data are provided "as is" and neither NASA nor METI/ERSDAC will be responsible for any damages resulting from use of the data.

[X] Use these values for all applicable items"


And IIUC, it is permissible to use that data as source data for FSX SDK Resample terrain mesh output, regardless of whether the project goal may be freeware or payware.

It would certainly be interesting, though, to see what "10 Meter DEM" data is locally available (to the OP ?) from the "Landslide Hazard Maps for St. Lucia" project.

http://www.caribank.org/titanweb/cdb/webcms.nsf/AllDoc/60316695013ECF0B04257553006BCFFF/$File/LandslideHazardMappingFinal_Report_2-28-06.pdf


[EDITED]

PS: A Global Mapper 3D texture mapped "preview" render of the TPLC area (with an optional slight terrain exaggeration) ...using the above ASTER-GDEM V2 data:

[END_EDIT]

Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[robystar]

Hello Gary,

You have delved more into it than I did. I was just wondering whether anybody else did the mesh. Apparently they did not, in which case it is indeed more than worthwhile to try and adapt the mesh using Sbuilder or SbuilderX.
In general though, if Raimundo Taburet makes an extra mesh, it means it is closer to reality than the FS one is.
In the absence of other more detailed mesh, I would suggest him to adapt the mesh himself (as you did) using either the aforementioned Sbuilder or even ADE if the changes are not too complicated, or go into the mind boggling world of the DEM, GEOTIFF, GDEM, STRM, etc, I have not found the time, the intelligence or interest for.
You go ahead as long as he goes ahead.
Meanwhile, me myself, I keep being interested in your replies.

Roby

 

[rhumbaflappy]

You could try ASTER data for the mesh.

GDEX

You need to register, and when it asks you for a purpose for the download, indicate 'water' or some such thing. Just define an area, and tick ASTER Global DEM.

Download as a GeoTiff.

I downloaded a geotiff, and made an INF file to drop onto resample. I don't know how accurate the data for the island is, but it seems OK.

Enclosed are the files, including a BGL, to drop into an active scenery folder.

Dick

 

[GaryGB]

Thanks for the feedback and kind words, Robystar !


FYI: I edited my posts above to add some clarifications and related info.


BTW: I was intrigued by the entire terrain mesh scenario for St. Lucia, so I searched a bit more.


I was pleased to find a LOD-10 terrain mesh made from the ASTER-GDEM (Version 1 data ?) for the Antilles, including St. Lucia by Jean-Louis Valladier:

IIUC, he minimized some ASTER-GDEM data terrain artifacts to make this mesh:

http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=Meshantilles.ZIP&CatID=root&Go=Search

http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=151241


I must say, this mesh by Jean-Louis Valladier looks good in FSX; one might wonder if a LOD-12 (10 Meter) mesh may look even better !

[EDITED]


Jean-Louis Valladier's LOD 10 (single-LOD) ASTER-GDEM (version #1 ?) N14W062_N13W061.bgl rendered at "10 Meters" mesh resolution slider setting in FSX

NOTE: Since the mesh by Jean-Louis Valladier contains only a single LOD-10 data set, other LODs 1-9 etc. use FSX default dem0303.bgl data when creating this scene

PS: My post crossed on the server as Rhumbaflappy posted; I'll be taking a look at his terrain mesh BGL next... many thanks for the demo file and newer USGS site link, Dick !


NOTE: FSX SDK TMFViewer shows that Dick's terrain mesh contains LOD 1-11 resolutions... it will be interesting to see how it looks set at 19 and 10 Meters mesh resolution in FSX.

[END_EDIT]

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

Here's a couple of additional screenies at the same location for comparison:

Rhumbaflappy's LOD 1-11 ASTER-GDEM (version #?) StLuciaDem.bgl rendered at "10 Meters" mesh resolution slider setting in FSX

FSX Default LOD 2-10 dem0303.bgl < ONLY > rendered at "10 Meters" mesh resolution slider setting in FSX

It is interesting to see how terrain shape correlates between the different FSX mesh renderings, and an image of real world landmarks:

Hmmm... One might wonder how closely a LOD-12 mesh (true, non-interpolated 10 Meter with multi-LOD 1-11 buffer levels) matches the real world !

PS: Some slewed repositioning of the Finney Ground CH+ aircraft was required to achieve comparable scenery views as underlying terrain shape changed with mesh changes. :spushpin:

GaryGB

 

[Sirgen]

Hello:

As a followup to my post (and more importantly, to your quoted post) above:

What are the geographic coordinates of the problematic mountain you are trying to model as terrain mesh ?


GaryGB

I started with the mountain on the left side of rwy 09.

Cordinates:
[GEOGRAPHIC]
North=14.02745397318155
South=14.014962954443897
West=-61.00836753845215
East=-60.991201400756836

Then onto the other side of rwy 09

[GEOGRAPHIC]
North=14.020490314113651
South=14.014244700194565
West=-60.99848628044129
East=-60.989903211593635

So I do have my work cut out. but I am not easily scared off.

I will look at modeling them outside with something like Terrabuilder or sketckup, only if I give up on the method I started with. In the mean time I will keep plugging on with all that good stuff I am getting from you, robystar, and rhumbaflappy. Thanks a mil.

 

[Sirgen]

Hello:

PS: I saw your inquiry at AVSIM TerraBuilder Forum; may I ask: did Misho Katulic ever reply to you by PM or E-mail ?

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/364976-terrabuilder-for-fsx/


GaryGB

No I did not get a reply

 

[robystar]

Don't exaggerate, Sirgen.
I have not been able yet to find some good mesh made by others for my own purposes and I am apparently not capable of finding a Geotiff myself that suits me. And as regards other formats, I do not know how to convert them to something useable in my FSX. Guess you have to concentrate on Gary's comments and find him or someone else capable of explaining it all to you and me.
And as for the gorgeous screenshots he made of Santa Lucia airport, I can only say that that would something I would like to achieve (not for Santa Lucia but for my own projects) in spite of the aberrations compared to the real world.
Glad you are not scared off easily because that was meant to be a joke.

Roby

 

[Sirgen]

Don't exaggerate, Sirgen.
I have not been able yet to find some good mesh made by others for my own purposes and I am apparently not capable of finding a Geotiff myself that suits me. And as regards other formats, I do not know how to convert them to something useable in my FSX. Guess you have to concentrate on Gary's comments and find him or someone else capable of explaining it all to you and me.
And as for the gorgeous screenshots he made of Santa Lucia airport, I can only say that that would something I would like to achieve (not for Santa Lucia but for my own projects) in spite of the aberrations compared to the real world.
Glad you are not scared off easily because that was meant to be a joke.

Roby

Not exaggerating Roby, I did take the "scared off" comment as a joke. I also agreed and I was also laughing at the comment, but I was just tring to say that I was not going to be scared off by it (as scary as that info came across to me at the time) because I really want to do this. I am appreciative of all the help I am getting on my thread.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Sirgen:


I found some more leads on possible (free ?) local sources by which you might access higher resolution DEMs (aka "Digital Elevation Models") of St. Lucia:

http://pubs.iied.org/pdfs/G00332.pdf - See Page 2


http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=16064&local_base=GEN01-MCG02

NOTE: Once on above page, Click on "PDF" icon next to "Object", and the full article opens in a new browser window at this URL:


http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/v...IGITOOL-3&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true - See Page 6



http://www.cavehill.uwi.edu/fpas/bc...pdfs/Ecological life zones of Saint Lucia.pdf - See Page 2


FYI: Directorate of Overseas Surveys reportedly has topographic maps of Saint Lucia at 1:50,000 and 1:25,000 scales, and is working on 1:2,500 scale maps; DEMs may also be available



A possible commercial data source of 20m - 90m resolution DEMs:

http://www.landinfo.com/GeoData Country pdfs/St.Lucia.pdf - Page 1


[EDITED]

PS: For a practical guide to correlating topographic map scale with initial resolution if processed without over-sampling to yield a DEM, see:

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/gi/chooserightmap/scale1250.html

[END_EDIT]


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

"Bumped" for edits to my last post above: :spushpin:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showpost.php?p=389113&postcount=17



Hi again, Sirgen:

FYI: The smaller the distance between elevation data points on ground (aka "Grid" spacing) the more precision is possible for vector data rendering in FS; this allows more accurate display of terrain when mesh has been altered by superimposition of BGLs containing CVX vector flattens (regardless of whether such "flatten" polygons are level or sloped).


BTW: A significant threshold for more accurate rendering of finer details in vector content is achieved in FSX when terrain mesh sliders are set to 100 % complexity with a 10 Meter or less grid spacing of data points (aka mesh resolution) in conjunction with a 7 cm terrain texture resolution slider setting (this is why FSX automatically and initially sets the 'texture' slider to 7cm when the 'mesh' slider is first set to 10 Meters or less).


CAVEAT: If FSX terrain mesh and texture resolution are set at 'lower' resolution slider settings (larger numbers of Meters between data points), terrain rendering instructions may not be able to resolve a smaller grid, and thus data points may "alias" to a lower Level Of Detail (aka "LOD") grid spacing interval... resulting in less precision rendering of vector content (...and regardless of whether that content is a textured object such as a vector roadway or shoreline etc.)

So, be sure to inspect any work in progress for your project in FSX with higher detail scenery display settings for both terrain mesh and texture resolution.


[EDITED]

Based on FS quad span calculations (and when enabled by FSX LOD Radius slider settings), if you do opt to use a higher LOD terrain mesh (ex: 10 meter / LOD-12 / QMID-14) at TLPC:

• some precision ground shape details may be seen if within 1.320734 Nautical Mile or 2.446 Kilometers of your aircraft

• some autogen objects (in default or custom annotated land class terrain texture tiles or polygons) may be seen if within 8 Nautical miles or 14.816 Kilometers of your aircraft

Between 1.320734 and 2.641469 Nautical Miles of your aircraft, ground shape details may be seen in a LOD-11 terrain mesh resolution

Between 2.641469 and 5.282937 Nautical Miles of your aircraft, ground shape details may be seen in a LOD-10 terrain mesh resolution

Beyond 5.282937 Nautical Miles of your aircraft, ground shape details may be seen in a LOD-9 or lower terrain mesh resolution (no better than source used for FSX default mesh ?)

[END_EDIT]



Also, be aware that in the FSX grid system for numeric Quad Matrix ID levels (aka "QMID"), LOD + 2 = QMID

Thus, a LOD-12 mesh may be referred to as a QMID-14 mesh, and will have a grid data point spacing of "10" Meters (...actually 9.6 Meters rounded off for easier reference in the FSX GUI)



Hope this helps a bit more with achieving your apparent goal of a highly detailed and accurately rendered TLPC !

GaryGB

 

[Sirgen]

• some precision ground shape details may be seen if within 1.320734 Nautical Mile or 2.446 Kilometers of your aircraft

• some autogen objects (in default or custom annotated land class terrain texture tiles or polygons) may be seen if within 8 Nautical miles or 14.816 Kilometers of your aircraft

Between 1.320734 and 2.641469 Nautical Miles of your aircraft, ground shape details may be seen in a LOD-11 terrain mesh resolution


Hope this helps a bit more with achieving your apparent goal of a highly detailed and accurately rendered TLPC !

GaryGB

Thanks again Gary I have just notice that my sliders were set too low. Things make a bit more sence now. Oops