Flight Sim World

[Hangar32]

First of all, it is sobering to me just how much power we third party devs wield in this community. It seems the developers pretty much have the final say as to whether a new sim will survive or not.

That certainly is one side of the coin. The other side is the power that Freeware producers have to keep a sim alive. I would have abandoned MSFS years ago if it were not for the freeware that I could add to it…and still add to it.

Secondly, what I didn't quite expect was how that when the developers voiced their concerns about DTGs business practices, and did so with the sincere desire to see FSW succeed, the community didn't share in that desire, but instead responded with a wave of hatred towards DTG that is really not quite warranted.

As it stands now–and I admit it is clear as mud–I a fairly sure that, despite their concerns, large developers will come to agreeable terms with DTG's business model and support the success of FSM since in the long run, it opens up another market for them. To quote the Godfather "Its just business…"

Small pay-ware developers like my self, and freeware developers will be effectively shut out of FSW. Since this is the FSDevelopr.com forum, full of people who do this work lovingly as a hobby, I think a negative response to DTG's business model for FSW can be expected here. Is that negativity warranted? You say "No"; Others may say "Yes". I only feel disappointment.

Still, as you say, that is life. (…and with that I gracefully exit the FSW debate.)

 

[pinkjr]

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Small pay-ware developers like my self, and freeware developers will be effectively shut out of FSW. Since this is the FSDevelopr.com forum, full of people who do this work lovingly as a hobby, I think a negative response to DTG's business model for FSW can be expected here. Is that negativity warranted? You say "No"; Others may say "Yes". I only feel disappointment.

Still, as you say, that is life. (…and with that I gracefully exit the FSW debate.)

Please accept my BIG like! Nailed it.

 

[hairyspin]

Small pay-ware developers like my self, and freeware developers will be effectively shut out of FSW.

Other than rumour and paranoid posts elsewhere, on what do you base that assertion? I just don't know what the usage terms of any sdk will be. Nobody who is allowed to say does!! (and DTG are not doing themselves any favours by leaving this question unanswered)

 

[fs1]

FSW dropped support of C/C++ gauges.

Where is this coming from? Do you have the source? Thanks

 

[katina12]

from dtg eula:

(i) the UGC (User generated content) must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, marketing or advertising;

 

[hairyspin]

(i) the UGC (User generated content) must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, marketing or advertising;

So don't teach real world pilots to fly with FSW. Good advice.

 

[Hangar32]

Other than rumour and paranoid posts elsewhere, on what do you base that assertion? I just don't know what the usage terms of any sdk will be. Nobody who is allowed to say does!! (and DTG are not doing themselves any favours by leaving this question unanswered)

Agree - not doing DTG any favors. I saw somewhere official that they were still considering releasing a SDK…that kind of statement does not fill me with unbridled enthusiasm for FSW.

I read somewhere - it wasn't a paranoid post but a "semi official rumor" (if there is such a thing) that 3rd party content to FSW would only be made available through FSW - which I take mean their site/servers. If I am wrong, please correct me and kill this rumor right here!

This has been the Steam business model since "HalfLife" came out. Personally I like the business model. It basically eliminates piracy and keeps your software automatically updated. For FSW I assume that when the "Cessna-2000 gizmo gauge" needs fixing, it is fixed on the server and next time you log in for a flight, it is fixed on your PC. I like that.

However, I bet that comes with a price. Not a problem for ORBX and Aerosoft…but probably a problem for tiny esci Flightsim Publications…and what about freeware?

In my career as a Naval Officer I learned that all initial reports of battle are usually wrong. I've seen it more than once. So I am chastising myself for falling into that trap. Eventually, all will become clear. I shall wait patiently for that day. Thus, this really is my last "contribution" to this thread.

 

[hairyspin]

I read somewhere - it wasn't a paranoid post but a "semi official rumor" (if there is such a thing) that 3rd party content to FSW would only be made available through FSW - which I take mean their site/servers. If I am wrong, please correct me and kill this rumor right here!

The much-repeated line - from Dovetail - is:–

"In order to market as an official FSW add-on, you will be able to sell your add-ons on your own store as long as it is made available on the Dovetail channels as well."

Note the use of the word official. Official FSW add-ons have to go through Steam. End of.

Will the sdk - whenever one is available - permit me to build and test something without DTG's approval? If it does, the freeware 'market' will thrive and new developers rise to payware standards, just like happens with Train Simulator. If it doesn't I shall leave it at bargepole's length and do other things.

But we don't yet know. Over to you, Dovetail...

 

[Hangar32]

The much-repeated line - from Dovetail - is:–

"In order to market as an official FSW add-on, you will be able to sell your add-ons on your own store as long as it is made available on the Dovetail channels as well."

Note the use of the word official. Official FSW add-ons have to go through Steam. End of.

Thanks for setting this right with facts.

Yes, that was the quote I was thinking of. OK, so freeware becomes "unofficial" add-on. I think that is OK. Commercially developed add-ons probably must be "Official" to be sold anywhere. So if I can't pay the DTG hosting fee or if DTG has issues with my content, the I cannot sell my product anywhere else…meaning I'm SOL with developing for FSW…

…all a moot point is a SDK isn't released.

OK! Really, REALLY, this is my last word on the subject!

 

[fs1]

from dtg eula:

(i) the UGC (User generated content) must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, marketing or advertising;

I will read the EULA, but I think that refers to the final user, not applied to the Dev
There will support an SDK, and the dev will have to share profits with DTG

 

[katina12]

The eula is there to see and is plain clear
Without their involvement and approval you will sell nothing. Sdk or no sdk

 

[lionheart]

Large Developers: PMDG, ORBX and some others seem perfectly capable of setting the tone for their "followers" who will then look with either favor or disfavor on whatever they are pointed at. (Nice for Aerofly that Orbx told its users to go for it.)

Note that FSW and ORBX worked together on the terrain for FSW. Basically DTG uses ORBX for their scenery. That said, we know that ORBX scenery will probably and most assuredly work in this new platform, be it stock or modified for the platform.

 

[HiFlyer]

Note that FSW and ORBX worked together on the terrain for FSW. Basically DTG uses ORBX for their scenery. That said, we know that ORBX scenery will probably and most assuredly work in this new platform, be it stock or modified for the platform.

What interests me is that on the same day as the announcement of P3DV4, several companies including Orbx immediately announced their plans to support the platform.

In contrast, the announcements of undying support for FSW have seemed to me to be considerably more lukewarm and vague.

Heck, Orbx was promising free upgrades to P3DV4 before it was even officially announced. Where is the corresponding promise for FSW?

 

[katina12]

I will read the EULA, but I think that refers to the final user, not applied to the Dev
There will support an SDK, and the dev will have to share profits with DTG

and Steam

 

[JB3DG]

As it stands now–and I admit it is clear as mud–I a fairly sure that, despite their concerns, large developers will come to agreeable terms with DTG's business model and support the success of FSM since in the long run, it opens up another market for them. To quote the Godfather "Its just business…"

Small pay-ware developers like my self, and freeware developers will be effectively shut out of FSW. Since this is the FSDevelopr.com forum, full of people who do this work lovingly as a hobby, I think a negative response to DTG's business model for FSW can be expected here. Is that negativity warranted? You say "No"; Others may say "Yes". I only feel disappointment.

Still, as you say, that is life. (…and with that I gracefully exit the FSW debate.)

Not quite. Milviz is a fairly large group and Colin Pearson has plainly stated that it is not an option for DTG to give big devs a favourable deal while crushing the smaller devs. There was a discussion that took place before the airdailyx live stream and while it should and shouldn't ever be made public, lets just say that there is quite a good number of high end developers who are out for playing fair with everyone.

 

[lionheart]

Note: When wanting to sell things 'through' Steam for FSW and FSX Steam, you sell through Dovetail, and their cut is 60%. You are paid every quarter, roughly 2 months after each end of quarter (long wait). So if you started selling, it will be probably 5 months for your first payout, and the cycle begins, every quarter.

This is 'if' you sell through Dovetail.

With FSX Steam, you can set your installers to find and install into FSX Steam Edition. No problems there. But if you want to sell through Steam (on Steam online), you must sell through Dovetail.

I hope that clarifies things.

Whats nice is that people get updates on Steam about FSX Steam Edition, so when they have sales and things in Steam (for FSX addons), they see them immediately and can click and purchase, the planes and scenery are auto-installed by Steam system and bing, they show up in the sim when they are fully downloaded and installed. On one side, its pretty nice. On the other, the pay is very spread out and very low. If you dont mind making only 40% on your work and waiting 3 months or more, then you are ok.

 

[arno]

FYI, I have added a new subforum to discuss FSW.

http://fsdeveloper.com/forum/forums/flight-sim-world.150/

I'll keep this thread in general chat for now, but new specific discussion can be started in that forum.

 

[pfabian]

The eula is there to see and is plain clear
Without their involvement and approval you will sell nothing. Sdk or no sdk

No it isn't.

First of all, this is EULA for use not for development, which will be (presumably) handled in SDK EULA.
Secondly, EULA says (emphasis mine)

(i) the UGC (User generated content) must be designed and used for personal entertainment and not for any business purpose or for any commercial purpose such as, but not limited to, training, marketing or advertising;

Which in essence means you cannot design UGC to be used for example in marketing, e.g. say you made a scenery of your home airports proposed expansion and offer it expressly to your airport to use in marketing visualisations.

It does not mention distribution at all anywhere in the EULA otherwise.

What I'm significantly more worried about:

(b) we have an irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, payment free right to take any actions we consider appropriate (including without limitation to copy, reproduce, market, advertise, modify, adapt, merge, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or create derivative works based on the whole or any part of the UGC), and all consents (if any) required under intellectual property, data protection and privacy laws worldwide, for that use, in respect of any UGC which includes portions of our Intellectual Property Rights;

and

(e) the UGC must not be used in, or made available to, any other simulator software which is similar to or competes with the Software

I mean the (b) would be fair if it only related to the parts that contain portions of DTG IP, but it seems worryingly like they might be able to take your whole scenery if you use their texture or your whole airplane if you use their gauge (not reference) and do whatever they want.
(e) seems much more worrying as it might imply that if I make a scenery of the local airport, I can't make, say, an X-Plane version.

 

[HiFlyer]

(e) seems much more worrying as it might imply that if I make a scenery of the local airport, I can't make, say, an X-Plane version.

I've been tending towards this interpretation of the currently available information, though I do wonder if that's permanent or just for a designated period, like 90 days.

 

[N2056]

Ponder this one...
Someone uploads one of your freeware items to DTG without your knowledge or consent. Now DTG gets to do anything they want with your work.