Chance to tell Dovetail Games what you want from new SDK.

[Diverskii]

So, DTG have posted a thread on Reddit asking the community what they want from the SDK of their new sim.

I thought a lot of you may be interested in making suggestions to them. We all know the FSX SDK is 10 years old and not the easiest thing to work with!

I do not have any connection to DTG, I just thought you would all be interested. I suggested they post here themselves, but until then here is a link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/flightsim/comments/4syk37/tell_us_what_you_want_from_an_sdk_in_dtg_flight/

I'm pretty sure outside links are allowed if it is FS related. If not, feel free to delete this mods.

 

[=rk=]

Thanks for the link. I guess everyone else knows what reddit is since this thread is almost 12 hours old, or they are waiting for someone like me to ask. I can see there are indeed posts related to flight sim, but there are also topic categories with names like "todayilearned," "mildlyinteresting," and, of all things, "showerthoughts." it strikes me as kind of a general interest site, it seems fairly interactive, there is a link under a banner that says, "discuss this ad on reddit."

I don't understand why Martin of DTG would post his question there as opposed to Avsim, Fly Away Simulation, or FlightSim.com which is announcing the 1.70 update to Airport Design Editor and I see nothing about Dovetail. Those are the first three non-proprietary hits (x-plane.com is proprietary) when one searches "flight simulation website." Then there is here, which you mentioned in the thread and I can't think of a site more acutely oriented toward flight simulator development from which one might elicit meaningful answers about a flight simulator software development kit.

Why were you checking reddit, is it a flight simulation resource? I learned about the Turkish coup from following your link and it is not a flight sim related topic..

 

[toprob]

I think that the answer to your question -- why not a flightsim site -- is on the Reddit site under the heading 'what would Snoo do?'
That aside, Reddit probably has a thousand times the membership of all the flightsim sites together, many of them interested in flightsim but not members of flightsim sites, so it makes sense. It is also easier to judge the popularity of posts, which is tricky on a flightsim site because of, well, the 'un-snoo' behaviour.

 

[N2056]

It seems to me that using that venue to solicit input is indicative that DTG is catering to a group that we are not a part of, or they really don't understand the developer community outside of the big names.

 

[=rk=]

Reddit probably has a thousand times the membership of all the flightsim sites together, many of them interested in flightsim but not members of flightsim sites, so it makes sense.

Of that 1000% membership, how many of them are developers, as a representative group? Aren't we really discussing the "idea" of SDK to the vast majority of flight simmers who never use it, at a sight where the overwhelmingly vast majority is what, people? Getting their popularly rankable feedback? The site is good for ranking, but is it known for flight sim development posts, or FS related breaking news? Both members of TFDi Design posted replies, but overall the posts seem to revolve around liveries, nav data and scenery. Actually not nearly as intense, imo, as the grilling Martin got at Avsim a few months ago. Probably not so bad as acutely specific - 38 pages specific until Jim young locked it. There is a lot of good information and links in this thread here at FSDeveloper:
http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/th...dovetail-games-fsx-update.436811/#post-738606
I did not check the topic category "what would snoo do?" That aside, I think those are both good perspectives and I hope Diverskii replies. Perhaps Martin has yet to see his suggestion and will also post here at FSDeveloper, there certainly has been interest in this forum.

 

[toprob]

It is entirely possible that DTG are not prepared to rely on the existing flightsim community for their success (given that a lot of them are committed to their current sim), but build a community from a wider base. There are plenty of youngsters around the world modding whatever they can get their hands on.

I don't see this step as a way of excluding the existing community here, by the way, I see it as another way to reach potential users. In lots of ways, we are already a captive market.

And I didn't say 1000% membership, I said 1000 times -- Reddit has 500+ million monthy visitors. Don't get me wrong, I think that FSDeveloper is the best resource in the world, bar none, and I don't think it would be anywhere near as useful to me if it had 1000 times the membership. But if I wanted to contact the biggest number of keen nerdy kids, Reddit is the way to go. One modder with a hundred Facebook friends -- and their friends -- reach a lot of potential customers.

 

[hairyspin]

Snoo? What, when or who is that?? Is this a genuine DTG search for answers or is someone pulling our legs?

I looked it up: self-referential Reddit feature, so lost on non-members.

 

[toprob]

I don't frequent Reddit, but as someone with a website promoting my 'brand', it is another way to reach people, just like Facebook. When I read this thread, I took another look -- the reference is from the 'About Reddit' page, and it is something I liked:

• Remember the human
  Our actions affect real people and communities, so do the right thing—even when it’s difficult.
  
  
• Evolve
  Move forward and grow together. Be optimistic about our future. Know that change is necessary for us to progress.
  
  
• What would Snoo do?
  Snoo isn’t an asshole. Snoo likes to enjoy a good time. Snoo is humble. Snoo is kind. Snoo has high integrity. Snoo delivers.
  

Each of these is a great ethos for an online community, whether it be a huge social media site, or a small forum like FSDeveloper. Particularly relevant to this thread, know that change is necessary for us to progress.

 

[HiFlyer]

As an aside, they also started a thread on Avsim: same subject.

http://www.avsim.com/topic/491841-w...-in-dtg-flight-simulator-official-discussion/

There is also this:

http://www.avsim.com/topic/491662-dtg-flight-simulator-news-thread-officia/

 

[=rk=]

I was hoping to be wrong or uninformed, that some very savvy, very well known developer or two would post, "reddit? I use it all the time. In fact, every developer of every platform uses reddit to keep his finger on the pulse of his passion," but that hasn't happened in the almost 24 hours this thread has existed.
This is what I know and believe. About 15 minutes after discovering "addons," or 30 minutes after discovering "FSX," I wanted to create content myself. I searched sites, eventually found FSDeveloper through Arno's hard work and excellent software and for many years I only read posts as I was not informed enough to provide opinion. I don't think anyone can get proficient at making content for FSX without at least coming into contact with FSDeveloper. I have been wrong on occasion. Ok, the DTG software has been described as an adaptation or improvement of FSX. This is by Martin on the reddit site:

Over the past 2 years, we have made our intentions clear with respect to welcoming and working with developers, both big and small, on FSX: SE. We fully intend to continue those relationships and looking forward will be welcoming both existing and new developers to the Dovetail Games Flight Simulator platform.

Flight removed many of the elements we believe necessary for the flying experience we wish to convey.. ATC and AI traffic being great examples. It made more sense for us to focus some of our efforts on necessary graphical improvements and build on top of the complex systems already inherent within FSX. Rather than try to build them all over again or find a way to integrate them back into Flight.

Therefore a comparison between the two is not really appropriate.

https://www.reddit.com/user/DTG_FlightSchool

Therefore it is all the more perplexing to me that he would post this there:

That said we have been listen to and reading all of the comments, feedback and suggestions that flight simmers have told us are important to them. We are now drilling down on a few of these to get a really deep understanding of what exactly it is you all want.

The SDK is a great example. People telling us they want an SDK doesn't really tell us much. An SDK is just a tool. We want to know what people are looking to achieve with an SDK. It is a bit like saying I want a hammer and some nails, when what I really want to do is construct a new table for my front room.

I don't know, is there anyone here who can articulate why they would want an SDK for a new flight sim? Anyone who has actually worked with SDK's who has maybe developed for, dare I suggest it, multiple platforms? Maybe all that content people have created; addons, tools, let's not forget the Wiki - maybe all that stuff just isn't relevant. Maybe all Martin is doing is the same thing Ford does when it "grabs a panel of experts off the street" to evaluate it's new line up. Ford does not ask Carroll Shelby and Hennessey Performance, they ask Joe Public what sort of changes he'd like in the new F150, scripted - and then they show that to him/us. reddit might be a great place to gather "we asked the community (where were you with your demanding feature requests then?)" quotes.

 

[=rk=]

As an aside, they also started a thread on Avsim: same subject.

http://www.avsim.com/topic/491841-w...-in-dtg-flight-simulator-official-discussion/

To be clear, Devon, that thread is within the newly created Dovetail Games (DTG) Flight Simulator Forum. Within the sub-category "The DTG Flight Simulator Forum" is the pinned thread. People browsing the top level of the forum can see quite a few topics, albeit within the Microsoft Flight Simulator Forums, with names like mesh design and add on developers forum. Those people may or may not bore down into the dedicated forums of each platform. If Martin had posted that thread in those development forums, he would have gotten replies. Is it likely that people who frequent the dedicated DTG forums would miss a DTG related post at a higher level of the forum? Is Martin not allowed to post about DTG development in development forums of related platforms since DTG has it's own sub forum?
He could still post here if nothing more than a gesture of courtesy. I remember quite a few posts where the FSDevelopers were giving DTG high praise, those would be some quotes to harvest. It is like this is ACES and he is trying to be Bill Gates.

 

[jross]

As I read that [reddit] I couldn't help but be a tad suspect...but, the question (and some of the responses by the OP), "what do 'we' want in an SDK" sound's almost like, "Why do you want one?".

Duh.

A first-rate development house (with first-rate developers = software dudes who know their stuff) would already understand all this and wonder, "why are we asking that question?". Just to placate some group (or individual); justify, based on the response (or lack of), NOT doing it (save money).

But I'm getting old and cynical...

BTW, thanks all of you for just for being here

Jeff

 

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Whilst familiar with reddit,
I don't recall encountering the term 'Snoo'.

Following Robin's first post,
before reading further,
I'd Googled it.

First return - Urban Dictionary: Snoo

Worth a read,
just trying to work out which were Sim applicable,
all 3 pages.

Some of which preexist reddit.



Back on topic -

WRT that reddit,
Brandon posted a link for Adrian Woods' portfolio, (Torgo).

There's some short videos
that are well worth watching.
- Procedural Solutions
- Tools and Pipeline
- Shaders & Effects

n.b. Music is muteable. ;-)

Whilst I was aware What had been done,
I wasn't aware of the How.

Hopefully some of which
will appear in DTG's sim & SDK.


Also pleased it confirmed I'm not totally barmy -
One of those late night sessions,
I'd flown a job, landing at ? Wheeler ?.
Taxied on to the apron,
and the office block's lights
progressively all switched on.
And no, not in a LOD-based, flash, texture switch.



HTH
ATB
Paul

 

[=rk=]

Well it is all kind of moot, besides being remarkable. Everyone knows the story of Microsoft FSX, the lost revenue to 3rd party developers and the failed attempt to secure that through Flight. Not a soul has told Martin how 3rd party addons will provide one cent of return on his very involved and deep investment, could anyone blame him for paying lip service to a full spectrum simulator as envisioned through some nebulous SDK? I think not.
Regardless, the addon market created by the FSX franchise is absolutely unrivaled within any broad definition of commercially available flight simulation and this site is the world's purest resource for sharing related information. ACES didn't create FSDeveloper and DTG can do just fine on it's own. It will fly on it's own, or it will crash, or it will allow 3rd party content (and then fly or crash) and when it does, Arno or someone similar will figure out how to develop for it, bottom line.

 

[rhumbaflappy]

At AVSIM, I asked Martin (of Dovetail Games) to visit us here. It would make more sense to ask SDK inquiries here.

 

[jross]

Embracing 3rd party development (SDK) = longevity for the "Engine" = people buying the Engine (to use the goodies created by 3PD's) = money for Engine developer. FSX is still around because it is/was a 'sandbox'.

 

[rhumbaflappy]

Although I did ask Martin to come here, until he does, we'd be better off going to AVSIM with our SDK concerns (and bug him to come here).

 

[hairyspin]

Done, with bug appended.

 

[N2056]

I'd like to see some real information about how the whole "user generated content" thing is actually going to work. Over at Avsim that has been asked and there has been no real response. The words in the EULA gave me much concern as it sounds like anything you make can be used by DTG in any way the want. Your work becomes their intellectual property. I'd be happy to offer what I'd like to see in an SDK, but at the same time if it turns out I'll never use it what's the point?

 

[toprob]

From their Avsim post:

Over recent years we have seen modding and UGC move into the mainstream across both PC and consoles.

This is another pointer to my suspicion that they want to do something very different from what sim developers have done before, and it wouldn't surprise me if part of this was to 'allow' modders to supply some of the content, with DTG retaining ownership.
By the way, at the time I checked the Avsim poll, 82% of users had modded FSX -- which kind of illustrates why they looked at another way to reach people, as I don't for one minute believe that this shows anything except that only developers are likely to read and take part in the poll on Avsim. (I would suspect that of my customer base, which are by definition simmers willing to spend money on user content, about 2-5% have used the SDK.)
Maybe DTG are not prepared to be hampered by the way things have been done before, given that FSX kind of died, and Flight failed spectacularly. They do mention Flight in the Avsim post, probably because those who were the Flight market are likely to be their market -- not the hardcore simmers. They need to look beyond the current sim scene, and grab all the gamers they can find, in the simplest, most accessible way.