Airport terminal on a small hill

[seippg]

Hi all,

I have a problem in that my airport terminal sits on a small hill with a retaining wall. Here's a pic.

Here's the Google Earth Web link if you want a better look...

https://earth.google.com/web/@34.26...xtaW5ndG9uIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgQWlycG9ydBgBIAE

I've been doing some reading on the possible ways to handle it:

1. Use ADE to create connected triangles and lift the corners. I have NO idea how to make connected triangles.
   
2. Use SBuilderX to do something or other.
3. Just make the hill a 3D object in Blender. For me, it might be easiest, but I can imagine problems with the road not having any traffic and the grass being perpetually green (which it kind of is near the top of the hill around the terminal IRL).

It might end up being a hybrid of item 3 and one of the other two. I may make some of the ground a 3D object that blends into the elevated terrain. Looking for ideas. Somebody must have done this kind of work at some point.

Gregg

 

[dave hoeffgen]

I'd recommend the 3rd one as there doesn't seem to be any sloping terrain around other than that hill. Also it will work the best together with the retaining wall.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi again:

Here's a KMZ file which, if double-clicked, should launch Google Earth desktop application for those that have it installed:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/at...1/?temp_hash=bb37cc4814e97cf0a80cef7fe53e1325


Personally, I'd advise installing / using the above cited Google Earth desktop stand-alone application:

https://www.google.com/earth/desktop/


The approximate elevation difference between the edge of the Jetway area and the hilltop under the terminal is ~20 Feet via the SRTM 90 Meter DEM typically used in Google Earth.


IMHO, although a sloped flatten derived from a 3D model via MCX is an alternative to a 3D model terrain skirt placed beneath the 3D model of the building, you may find that a custom terrain mesh may prove easier to implement with custom photo-real aerial imagery and seasonal texture changes, autogen etc..

I'll be curious to see which USGS DEM elevation data might be highest in resolution for that area.


GaryGB

 

[seippg]

I'd recommend the 3rd one as there doesn't seem to be any sloping terrain around other than that hill. Also it will work the best together with the retaining wall.

Would I be able to make road traffic flow on the road if I chose that? E.g. I guess it would be a kind of bridge.

 

[seippg]

Personally, I'd advise using the above cited Google Earth desktop stand-alone application:

Yeah, the link I provided works well in Chrome but you don't have things like rulers and paths (which I use for elevation data) which you get in Google Earth. Also, no historic photos.

 

[dave hoeffgen]

Would I be able to make road traffic flow on the road if I chose that? E.g. I guess it would be a kind of bridge.

I guess when you make the traffic vector line on the ground and mak a platform in the model the cars should be on the platform.

Might be my mistake but to me it looked like the street was back on the apron height. Is it actually the whole circle together with the parking lots which is elevated?

 

[seippg]

I guess when you make the traffic vector line on the ground and mak a platform in the model the cars should be on the platform.

Might be my mistake but to me it looked like the street was back on the apron height. Is it actually the whole circle together with the parking lots which is elevated?

Yeah, the road is up above the basement.

 

[dave hoeffgen]

Ok, that's goint to be a large model but still possible. Maybe you'll need some curve earth correction.

 

[GaryGB]

A 10 Meter USGS DEM in a GIS application shows only a 5 foot difference between the Apron and Jetway area compared to the peak elevation on the embankment along the SE side of the Terminal building itself.


This may or may not merit rendering as variable terrain inside the Apron / Taxiway / RWY surface "airport" flatten polygon area.

That would solve issues with the caveat that FS / P3D AI traffic / ground vehicles on aprons require a flat continuous ground surface all at the same elevation as the RWYs / Taxiways etc.

The terrain outside that "airport" flatten polygon area could still be allowed to render as variable elevation terrain mesh draped by custom photoreal with all the features that provides.

There is LiDAR elevation data available, but... it may not visually show more details at run time in FS than is derived from a 10 Meter DEM.

GaryGB

 

[seippg]

Interesting map. I wonder the elevations predate the terminal which was finished in 1990.

BTW, is there any way to see the airport's flatten? I found a thread that talked about replacing it...seems there's been some talk about replacing flattens. Also, does anyone know of any instructions on how to create connected triangles using ADE? I'm trying to imagine how to do it.

 

[GaryGB]

I'll see if there is another LiDAR elevation data set newer than the 2001 data I have thus far.


As to the "airport flatten", are you wanting to view the default FS / P3D airport flatten ?

If so, there is a way to do that using FS SDK TMFViewer; if you want info on the default CVX vector file to load, just ask.


BTW: That same CVX vector file could be de-compiled and exported as a ESRI SHP file using CVXExtractor:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/cvxextractor-exporting-vector-data.432918/


That SHP file can then be imported ("Appended") to SBuilderX' work-space for background reference or as a "primitive" to be edited into your new one to replace it.

One would exclude the default airport flatten with a specific type of CVX "Exclude" polygon (which can also be made in SBuilderX), so that it would not be rendered at run time in FS, allowing your custom replacement to be used instead.


IMHO, it is "inhumane" to encourage someone to try and make a complex "Triangulated Irregular Network" (aka "TIN") as a CVX vector polygon terrain object by manual means via either ADE or SBuilderX.

It would be more "humane" (and easier to achieve visually satisfactory results) by either creating a 3D 'terrain' model from triangulated DEM elevation terrain data in a GIS application, then export that to a file that can be imported by a 3D modeling application to output a 3D model file that can be imported / converted using MCX to a "sloped flatten" CVX vector BGL that modifies the local terrain mesh.

Alternatively, one can also use a textured 3D model "terrain skirt" (...but that does not have as many desirable features in FS).

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/airport-terminal-on-a-small-hill.440002/#post-771158

I'll see if there is another LiDAR elevation data set newer than the 2001 data I have thus far.

The following may have been updated in 2014, although they are cited as 2001 source dates.

You may wish to download, then open in QGIS, this LiDAR source data (in LAS format) to triangulate as a 3D elevation grid:

[EDITED]

WARNING: IIUC, these massive data sets are "full return" LiDAR, and require skills in LiDAR point cloud gridded sub-sampling into tiled extents of more manageable sizes, as well as in filtering and classification to avoid exceeding available Windows GIS application task session USERVAS, with resultant freezes of the GIS application and Windows' sub-system itself.

After processing of these data sets, one must extract only a "Bare Earth" ground surface Digital Terrain Map (aka "DTM") ...rather than allowing 'all' returns (including vegetation / buildings etc.) to persist within the data set as a Digital Surface Map (aka "DSM").

[END_EDIT]

KILM terminal area:

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000184.zip


Surrounding area nearby:

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000183.zip

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000182.zip

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000181.zip

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000180.zip

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000179.zip


Now to see if a GIS application on my other computer can process these ...without choking !

GaryGB

 

[seippg]

I'll see if there is another LiDAR elevation data set newer than the 2001 data I have thus far.


As to the "airport flatten", are you wanting to view the default FS / P3D airport flatten ?

If so, there is a way to do that using FS SDK TMFViewer; if you want info on the default CVX vector file to load, just ask.


BTW: That same CVX vector file could be de-compiled and exported as a ESRI SHP file using CVXExtractor:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/cvxextractor-exporting-vector-data.432918/


That SHP file can then be imported ("Appended") to SBuilderX' work-space for background reference or as a "primitive" to be edited into your new one to replace it.

One would exclude the default airport flatten with a specific type of CVX "Exclude" polygon (which can also be made in SBuilderX), so that it would not be rendered at run time in FS, allowing your custom replacement to be used instead.


IMHO, it is "inhumane" to encourage someone to try and make a complex "Triangulated Irregular Network" (aka "TIN") as a CVX vector polygon terrain object by manual means via either ADE or SBuilderX.

It would be more "humane" (and easier to achieve visually satisfactory results) by either creating a 3D 'terrain' model from triangulated DEM elevation terrain data in a GIS application, then export that to a file that can be imported by a 3D modeling application to output a 3D model file that can be imported / converted using MCX to a "sloped flatten" CVX vector BGL that modifies the local terrain mesh.

Alternatively, one can also use a textured 3D model "terrain skirt" (...but that does not have as many desirable features in FS).

GaryGB

I've done some experimentation with ADE and the results have been mixed, so far. It is difficult to get triangles to line up so you get some weird results at times. The best I've gotten was with two fairly equilateral triangles and, along a common line, raised them up by 5 feet. Seems that ADE does some kind of smoothing or something, making the terrain fall off at an angle of 20 degrees-ish. It's interesting...might be made to work in part but the results aren't that predictable. One problem seems to be that once you create a flatten, ADE seems to have a memory of it and P3D keeps displaying it even though I've deleted it from the model and recompiled. I've cleared the scenery cache and exiting and recompiling but it persists.

The mesh idea you have is intriguing. As I understand it, the best meshes from NASA are at about 38 meters per pixel or so but maybe they have some that are better for the US.

I could use some help with the TMFViewer since, when I tried it against the CVX file I got from the stock airport, it's blank.

In a practical sense, seems to me that, if I could draw lines across the road (like a crosswalk) at intervals and then connect those by making triangles, I'd have a good base of a flat surface for the road to start with.

Gregg

 

[seippg]

KILM terminal area:

ftp://rockyftp.cr.usgs.gov/vdelivery/Datasets/Staged/NED/LPC/projects/NC_Phase1B_2001/las/tiled/NC_Phase1B_2001_000184.zip

I haven't been able to figure out a way to import this into QGIS.

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/airport-terminal-on-a-small-hill.440002/#post-771165

I could use some help with the TMFViewer since, when I tried it against the CVX file I got from the stock airport, it's blank.

1.) Launch: [P3D SDK install path]\Environment Kit\Terrain SDK\TmfViewer.exe

2.) TmfViewer Menu > File > Open: [FSX install path]\Scenery\0302\scenery\cvx2719.bgl

3.) TmfViewer Menu > Jump > Lat - Long... enter 'Jump to Lat - Long' coordinates:

Lat = 34.266802
Lon = -77.910371

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/airport-terminal-on-a-small-hill.440002/#post-771166

I haven't been able to figure out a way to import this into QGIS.

I use Global Mapper, but perhaps the QGIS work-flow may be found in these links ?

https://www.google.com/#q=QGIS+open+LAS+LiDAR

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/airport-terminal-on-a-small-hill.440002/#post-771158

I'll see if there is another LiDAR elevation data set newer than the 2001 data I have thus far.


As to the "airport flatten", are you wanting to view the default FS / P3D airport flatten ?

If so, there is a way to do that using FS SDK TMFViewer; if you want info on the default CVX vector file to load, just ask.


BTW: That same CVX vector file could be de-compiled and exported as a ESRI SHP file using CVXExtractor:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/cvxextractor-exporting-vector-data.432918/


That SHP file can then be imported ("Appended") to SBuilderX' work-space for background reference or as a "primitive" to be edited into your new one to replace it.

One would exclude the default airport flatten with a specific type of CVX "Exclude" polygon (which can also be made in SBuilderX), so that it would not be rendered at run time in FS, allowing your custom replacement to be used instead.


IMHO, it is "inhumane" to encourage someone to try and make a complex "Triangulated Irregular Network" (aka "TIN") as a CVX vector polygon terrain object by manual means via either ADE or SBuilderX.

It would be more "humane" (and easier to achieve visually satisfactory results) by either creating a 3D 'terrain' model from triangulated DEM elevation terrain data in a GIS application, then export that to a file that can be imported by a 3D modeling application to output a 3D model file that can be imported / converted using MCX to a "sloped flatten" CVX vector BGL that modifies the local terrain mesh.

Alternatively, one can also use a textured 3D model "terrain skirt" (...but that does not have as many desirable features in FS).

GaryGB

Regarding your latter post, and my latter quote of an earlier post above, you may wish to review the work-flow in this thread:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/create-small-slope-on-terrain.438028/


GaryGB

 

[seippg]

1.) Launch: [P3D SDK install path]\Environment Kit\Terrain SDK\TmfViewer.exe

2.) TmfViewer Menu > File > Open: [FSX install path]\Scenery\0302\scenery\cvx2719.bgl

3.) TmfViewer Menu > Jump > Lat - Long... enter 'Jump to Lat - Long' coordinates:

Lat = 34.266802
Lon = -77.910371

GaryGB

Interesting. I was messing with ADE flattens outside of this flatten, adding polys, raising them and seeing the result. With the stock airport loaded, the terrain by the parking lot is flat, but with my ADE bgl, after deleting those ADE flattens, the terrain still has the hills I created. I wonder if ADE mucked up the terrain there near (but not under) this flatten...perhaps I need to re-flatten the area with a flatten poly.

 

[GaryGB]

I would not attempt to re-flatten an underlying (misplaced) flatten with < you guessed it > ...a new flatten.

Those ADE flatten BGLs you created are ..."somewhere".

By default, ADE will write compiled BGLs to a designated project 'work' folder chain \Scenery sub-folder, then copy BGLs to another \Scenery sub folder in a folder chain set active in the FS Scenery Library GUI; that folder chain path was configured during initial installation of ADE.

Additionally, ADE may write files with "_ALT" or "_TER" suffixes in the filename to:

[FS / P3D install path]\Scenery\World\Scenery\ subfolder


IMHO, you must remove those BGLs and restore FS to its default terrain render before you can properly track your results with exclude / replacement BGLs for scenery content.


GaryGB

 

[seippg]

IMHO, you must remove those BGLs and restore FS to its default terrain render before you can properly track your results with exclude / replacement BGLs for scenery content.

Yeah, I had just started that. The good news is that, when I delete my scenery from P3D, everything goes flat again so it's in my scenery...like you said...somewhere. As I just started on this part today, there's not much lost to re-get the stock airport and start over.

EDIT: I fixed it by deleting the .cvx file ADE had made. Apparently, it stopped making new ones when I was changing the polys. Maybe that compiler was being messed up by the polys. In any case, things are flat again and I'm not sure I want to try that road again.