Does this even work with Carenado products

[bofhluser]

I'm hoping someone can help me. I'm trying to get the Carenado T210 Centurion to display properly in FSX sp2. After converting the plane using SAMM 2.1.06, it shows up in FSX but with the gears up, and I can't seem to fix it.

I must have spent 6 hours trying to get it to work including a 3 hour non-stop session ending at 2:30 am. I've read the manual and parts of it several times and must have tried a dozen different parameter combinations...

... selecting and unselecting the 'Parameters' setting, selecting both 'Parameters' and 'Animation Data' settings, and selecting and unselecting 'Scenes' in combination with the previous two; and in combination with using Index 5 (c_gear) with a value of 100 (also tried a value of 0), Index 24 (landing gear handle position) with a value of 100, and etc...​

It is not working for me. Very frustrating to say the least. Reading the manual leaves the impression that testing was done for this product and that with few exceptions this product should work and that it works quite well. Very frustrating to say the least that I can't get this to work Having invested so much time, I'm not ready to give up just yet. I'm on the edge though. Can someone help please?

Below is a copy and paste of the Parameter file generated by checking 'Listings and Tools' in the main program screen.

Type Value Name
------ ---------- --------------------
0 FLOAT32 0 switch_avionics_master (AVIONICS MASTER SWITCH Units:bool Scale:50.0)
1 FLOAT32 0 lever_fuel_crossfeed
2 FLOAT32 100 lever_mixture (GENERAL ENG MIXTURE LEVER POSITION:1 Unitsercent Scale:-1.0 Bias:100)
3 FLOAT32 50 rotor_pitch (DISK PITCH PCT:1 Unitsercent Scale:0.5 Bias:50)
4 FLOAT32 0 switch_ignition_magneto
5 FLOAT32 150 c_gear (GEAR ANIMATION POSITION:0 Units:keyframe Bias:150)
6 FLOAT32 0 c_tire_blurred_key (CENTER WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
7 FLOAT32 0 c_tire_still_key (CENTER WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
8 FLOAT32 0 cowl_flaps (RECIP ENG COWL FLAP POSITION:1 Unitsercent)
9 FLOAT32 0 l_spoiler_key (SPOILERS LEFT POSITION Unitsercent Scale:1.0)
10 FLOAT32 50 rudder_key (RUDDER DEFLECTION Units:grads Bias:50)
11 FLOAT32 0 door_0 (EXIT OPEN:0 Unitsercent)
12 FLOAT32 0 door_1 (EXIT OPEN:1 Unitsercent)
13 FLOAT32 0 door_2 (EXIT OPEN:2 Unitsercent)
14 FLOAT32 50 elevator_percent_key (ELEVATOR DEFLECTION PCT Unitsercent Bias:50)
15 FLOAT32 0 lever_flap (FLAPS HANDLE PERCENT Unitsercent)
16 FLOAT32 0 prop0_still (PROP ROTATION ANGLE:1)
17 FLOAT32 50 l_aileron_percent_key (AILERON LEFT DEFLECTION PCT Unitsercent Scale:-1.0 Bias:50)
18 FLOAT32 0 l_flap_percent_key (TRAILING EDGE FLAPS LEFT PERCENT Unitsercent Scale:1.0)
19 FLOAT32 150 l_gear (GEAR ANIMATION POSITION:1 Bias:150)
20 FLOAT32 0 l_tire_blurred_key (LEFT WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
21 FLOAT32 0 l_tire_still_key (LEFT WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
22 FLOAT32 0 lever_cowl_flaps (RECIP ENG COWL FLAP POSITION:1 Unitsercent)
23 FLOAT32 0 lever_fuel_selector_lor (2 0 1 1 4 (A:FUEL TANK SELECTOR:1, enum) case 25 *)
24 FLOAT32 0 lever_landing_gear (GEAR HANDLE POSITION Unitsercent)
25 FLOAT32 0 lever_parking_brake (BRAKE PARKING POSITION Unitsercent)
26 FLOAT32 50 lever_pedals_l_r (RUDDER PEDAL POSITION Unitsart Scale:50.0 Bias:50)
27 FLOAT32 100 lever_prop_pitch (GENERAL ENG PROPELLER LEVER POSITION:1 Unitsercent Scale:-1.0 Bias:100)
28 FLOAT32 50 lever_stick_fore_aft (YOKE Y POSITION Unitsercent Scale:0.5 Bias:50)
29 FLOAT32 50 lever_stick_l_r (YOKE X POSITION Unitsercent Scale:0.5 Bias:50)
30 FLOAT32 0 lever_throttle
31 FLOAT32 50 lever_throttle0
32 FLOAT32 0 door_3 (EXIT OPEN:3 Unitsercent)
33 FLOAT32 0 prop0_blurred (PROP ROTATION ANGLE:1)
34 FLOAT32 0 prop0_slow (PROP ROTATION ANGLE:1)
35 FLOAT32 50 r_aileron_percent_key (AILERON RIGHT DEFLECTION PCT Unitsercent Scale:-1.0 Bias:50)
36 FLOAT32 0 r_flap_percent_key (TRAILING EDGE FLAPS RIGHT PERCENT Unitsercent Scale:1.0)
37 FLOAT32 150 r_gear (GEAR ANIMATION POSITION:2 Bias:150)
38 FLOAT32 0 r_tire_blurred_key (RIGHT WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
39 FLOAT32 0 r_tire_still_key (RIGHT WHEEL ROTATION ANGLE)
40 FLOAT32 50 rudder_percent_key (RUDDER DEFLECTION PCT Unitsercent Bias:50)
41 FLOAT32 0 r_spoiler_key (SPOILERS RIGHT POSITION Unitsercent Scale:1.0)
42 FLOAT32 0 switch_no_smoking (CABIN NO SMOKING ALERT SWITCH Units:bool Scale:50.0)
43 FLOAT32 0 switch_alt_air (ALTERNATE STATIC SOURCE OPEN:1 Units:bool Scale:50.0)
44 FLOAT32 0 switch_beacon_light (LIGHT BEACON Units:bool Scale:50.0)
45 FLOAT32 0 switch_master_ignition (MASTER IGNITION SWITCH Units:bool Scale:50.0)
46 FLOAT32 0 switch_fuel_pump (GENERAL ENG FUEL PUMP SWITCH:1 Units:bool Scale:50.0)
47 FLOAT32 0 switch_ignition_magnetos0_trimotor ((A:Recip eng left magneto:1,bool) 2 * (A:Recip eng right magneto:1,bool) + 25 *)
48 FLOAT32 0 switch_landing_light (LIGHT LANDING Units:bool Scale:50.0)
49 FLOAT32 0 switch_master_alternator (GENERAL ENG MASTER ALTERNATOR:1 Units:bool Scale:50.0)
50 FLOAT32 0 switch_master_battery (ELECTRICAL MASTER BATTERY Units:bool Scale:50.0)
51 FLOAT32 0 switch_nav_light (LIGHT NAV Units:bool Scale:50.0)
52 FLOAT32 0 switch_panel_light (LIGHT PANEL Units:bool Scale:50.0)
53 FLOAT32 0 switch_pitot_heat (PITOT HEAT Units:bool Scale:50.0)
54 FLOAT32 0 switch_strobe_light (LIGHT STROBE Units:bool Scale:50.0)
55 FLOAT32 0 switch_taxi_light (LIGHT TAXI Units:bool Scale:50.0)
56 FLOAT32 0 switch_audio_marker (MARKER SOUND Units:bool Scale:50.0)
57 FLOAT32 50 trimtab_elevator_key_pct (ELEVATOR TRIM PCT Unitsercent Scale:0.5 Bias:50)
58 FLOAT32 50 l_flap_neg_percent_key (TRAILING EDGE FLAPS LEFT PERCENT Unitsercent Scale:0.5 Bias:50)
59 FLOAT32 0 L:var_check12, bool
60 FLOAT32 0 LIGHT TAXI#bool
61 FLOAT32 0 LIGHT LANDING#bool
62 FLOAT32 0 A:CENTER WHEEL RPM, grads
63 FLOAT32 0 AROP MAX RPM PERCENT:1, percent
64 FLOAT32 0 L:var_check11, bool
65 FLOAT32 0 A:SIM ON GROUND,bool
66 FLOAT32 0 L:YokePilot,bool
67 FLOAT32 0 L:YokeCoPilot,bool
68 FLOAT32 0 LIGHT CABIN#bool
69 FLOAT32 0 LIGHT WING#bool
70 FLOAT32 0 LIGHT NAV#bool
71 FLOAT32 0 A:RIGHT WHEEL RPM, grads
72 FLOAT32 0 A:LEFT WHEEL RPM, grads

 

[gadgets]

SAMM works with aircraft that utilize (only) standard animation keys for the controls of interest. I have no idea whether or not this aircraft conforms. But given the large number of aircraft that SAMM successfully converts, I suspect it doesn't.

As mentioned in the User Manual, aircraft designers have a great deal of flexibility in how they design their aircraft systems. In fact, in the middle of page 15, I discuss this specific problem, (i.e., no gear).

If SAMM doesn't convert everything properly (and you really want to convert that aircraft) the next step is to delve into the aircraft design. In this case, you need to understand how the designer decided the gear should be controlled - especially if it's a flyable model like this one. That's why SAMM generates an aircraft .mdl listing. If the designer has decided that the gear lever must be down before the gear extends, then you've got to set the gear lever down! (It seems from your post that, by itself, didn't work in this case.) Perhaps there's a check for sufficient hydraulic pressure as well. Unless somebody who's already been through this responds, you need to analyse the model.

The FS9 MakeMdl SDK details all the standard animation keys and their values. Make sure you are using the right value (Gear down and compressed has a key value of 150.)

Also, do the wheels appear in the viewer. You need to be sure they are not getting lost as a result of a FS9 model being used with FSX.

Don

 

[bofhluser]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I think the plane I'm converting to static scenery is not a plane that was converted from FS9. It looks like it is engineered for FSX from the ground up. Have you
had reports of someone successfully converting Carenado planes using SAMM?

I get an error when I try to view the plane in the SAMM viewer.

http://s1330.photobucket.com/user/l...wCarenado210inSAMMViewer_zpsbfd20174.png.html

The gears are missing as you can see below:

http://s1330.photobucket.com/user/l...gears-9-24-20135-24-19PM_zpsbcc663b2.png.html

It's a nice looking plane which is why I want to convert it to static scenery. You mentioned that perhaps there is a a check for hydraulic pressure to extend the gears. Can you direct me to the general direction of how to find out if it does?

The MDL file is about 16 MB in size.

Separate question:

Where do your users get the planes they use for SAMM? I converted one or two WOAI planes successfully. They look great. I'm looking for additional GA or military type planes that I can convert to scenery without having to install them in FSX. Can I convert planes from a library (lib file) directly? Do you know which ones are often used?

Thank you very much.

 

[hcornea]

Not sure how happy Carenado would be with 'converting' their work for re-use.

Worth considering the original author/publisher.

 

[bofhluser]

I would think it would be no different from re-painting or modeling planes. I wonder if Carenado or SAMM themselves have permissions from real life plane manufacturers like Cessna. Interesting. Thanks.

 

[hcornea]

I would think it would be no different from re-painting or modeling planes. I wonder if Carenado or SAMM themselves have permissions from real life plane manufacturers like Cessna. Interesting. Thanks.

Actually, I would contend that it is quite different.

You are reverse-engineering the geometry that Carenado designers created.

SAMM is a tool, and the onus of its use is on the individual using it, so no permission required by Don to do what the tool does.

Some developers have obtained consent from plane manufacturers to create models of the planes they produce. Others have asked and been flatly refused, and had to stop production. The original plane manufacturer owns the 'design' of the plane (a few test cases there) but that doesn't strike me as much of a justification for ripping someones 'model' for other purposes.

Whilst running a payware plane through SAMM for your own interest and use is unlikely to be a problem. Distributing it almost certainly would be.

I have nothing to do with Carenado, but I would be ropable if my work was used in this way witout permission, and would (most probably) take appropriate action.

This is probably hard to understand if you have not spent an eon modelling something. Just be aware it can be a very touchy subject, and it is best to ask permission, rather than take liberties.

 

[gadgets]

I think the plane I'm converting to static scenery is not a plane that was converted from FS9. It looks like it is engineered for FSX from the ground up.

I misinterpreted your earlier post. But, no matter.

You mentioned that perhaps there is a check for hydraulic pressure to extend the gears. Can you direct me to the general direction of how to find out if it does?

SAMM has difficulty with certain FSX aircraft. For example, the pilot's door of the converted stock C172 always sits on the ground. (Yet every other stock aircraft I've tried converts OK.) The C172 model renders properly in FSX, so it obviously meets FSX base requirements. But, the designer has done something peculiar with that door. I've spent many hours trying to discover what - without success. Typically, flyable aircraft are much more complex than aircraft designed for AI use. There's just no way SAMM can cope with the whims of every aircraft designer. If you are not intimately familiar with FSX aircraft design, then I'm going to suggest right here you look for another C210 to convert.

Where do your users get the planes they use for SAMM? I converted one or two WOAI planes successfully. They look great. I'm looking for additional GA or military type planes that I can convert to scenery without having to install them in FSX. Can I convert planes from a library (lib file) directly?

No. Please refer to the third bold-print "bullet" on page 3 of the user manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bofhluser View Post
I would think it would be no different from re-painting or modeling planes. I wonder if Carenado or SAMM themselves have permissions from real life plane manufacturers like Cessna. Interesting. Thanks.

Actually, I would contend that it is quite different.

I second everything hcornea says (and thank him for saying it since it saved me from having to do so). Whether the aircraft (or scenery or whatever) is payware or freeware, it belongs to its developer and he/she is entitled to restrict your use of his/her work. That's the purpose of an end-user licence agreement (EULA) and you are obligated under law to abide by the terms of the EULA. The very first statement in the SAMM user manual reminds the user of this.

Don

 

[bofhluser]

@hcornea. By the way, I like your signature. It reminds me of a quote I like to keep in mind: "It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. -Lippman"

 

[bofhluser]

.... For example, the pilot's door of the converted stock C172 always sits on the ground. (Yet every other stock aircraft I've tried converts OK.) The C172 model renders properly in FSX, so it obviously meets FSX base requirements. But, the designer has done something peculiar with that door. I've spent many hours trying to discover what - without success...

Don, you just saved me a lot of time without you realizing it. I can't thank you enough for mentioning that, as that stupid door was really starting to get on my nerves!

 

[gadgets]

bofhluser, I am still concerned about the exception you reported earlier.

The exception originated in one of the MCX .dlls I use for the viewer. But, I'd like to make sure it's not a general problem for other SAMM users. So would you mind sending me the aircraft so that I can test it on my development system. Indeed, Arno may have already fixed it (if it's a MCX issue) - but unless I can duplicate it with the current .dll and then re-test with Arno's latest version we won't know.)

The C210 file will be too big for you to attach to a post. So please e-mail it to don at stuff4fs dot com. I only need the Model folder, the aircraft.cfg file and one texture folder. If the file exceeds 20mb, please send just those. Indeed, I can even do without the textures if necessary

(Having just received two lectures on EULAs, you'll probably recognize doing as I ask is at least a technical violation of the Carendo EULA. But, since I plan to make no use of those files beyond testing SAMM, I wouldn't worry about the consequences. )

Don

 

[bofhluser]

I'm sorry Don, but talk about EULA has put the fear of God in me so I would rather not, this being the Internet where posts live forever. I hope you understand. Besides, who knows maybe the NSA is right around the corner listening to our conversation as we speak .

You'll just have to take my word for it, but this plane as installed now will be useless to you anyway because of stuff I've subjected it too. I've 'tweaked' panel.cfg (eg. creating a 2D panel using panel instruments from stock aircraft) and adjusted the aircraft.cfg beyond recognition. I've also always hated the sound of this plane (kinda high pitched) so I've replaced it with something 'throatier'. I wouldn't be surprised if the exception was caused by one of the changes I made to the installed files making any testing with SAMM useless.

I will be taking your advice. Why go through the pain of getting a model to work when AI planes works much better. I'm going to look for an AI plane instead to use with SAMM. I might also try converting planes from FS9 but I'd have to review the SAMM manual again.

 

[gadgets]

Not a problem for me. Actually, none of what you've done should have any effect on SAMM (or the testing I was contemplating), cause SAMM only looks at the .mdl file and a small part of the aircraft.cfg.

Don

 

[Gman]

Whilst running a payware plane through SAMM for your own interest and use is unlikely to be a problem. Distributing it almost certainly would be.

All of the concerns hcornea wrote about were spot-on, and as he said, creating static models from payware for your own use, if possible that is, shouldn't be an issue. It is when you plan on re-releasing it to the public either in freeware or payware form without proper permission from the designer/owner that is going to create the potential for problems.

As fregards the aforementioned personal use, I always found that the more complicated/beautiful an aircraft model was, the more I could depend on the static aircraft I made from it being heavy on the frame rates, especially if placed in multiples around an airport, along with other similar HQ static aircraft objects.

Back when I was testing SAMM with every model I could find just to see what would happen, along with default aircraft and freeware aircraft, I often used very beautiful models from some of the top-quality payware helicopters and corporate jets I have bought and paid for over the years, and some of them converted to amazingly beautiful, yet frame busting static models, often lined-up on the tarmac in ten diferent liveries.

Others, ...well it's like Don said, designers don't necessarily follow any particular convention when they design how their systems work. Whether they do something different or not may never even be noticed unless trying to convert it with SAMM.

However, we found many, many aircraft which converted perfectly, some with many possibilities for various static aircraft made from the same model by taking advantage of its animations for doors open, storage caompartments open, etc. and even the occassional red carpet and cones.

To Don's credit he taught SAMM to do an amazing job in converting a wide range of models into static aircraft. Yet there were also some aircraft, both high quality and low quality, whether freeware or payware, which came out whopper-jawed or discombobulated in some way no matter what.

I never figured out how to fix the animations and flying parts on some models, I usually just moved-on to the next one which SAMM would work with and I reckon I had good results with 7 out of every 10 aircraft I tried, and I probably converted well over a hundred different models.

I probably should have kept better track of which models worked, and which didn't work, and posted a list. DOH!