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Invisible runways

R

Reider

Messages
76
I need an invisible runway. I`ve achieved this before by editing the properties of the runway and changing it into 'unknown'. Or hiding it inside an object. any ideas?

In this instance I cannot hide it inside an object and believe because its touching the other object it may not be allowing the properties of 'unknown' to work as I wish, its still coming out as tarmac or similar. I need the height and character of the runway (19.5 meters high and only 20 meters long by 15 meters wide) but not the visible presence.

Also, is it possible to slightly tilt a runway downhill. Say enough to make an aircraft roll? I know some surfaces in FSX have this.

Reider
AKA Steve
________
volcano review
 
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Reider said:
I need an invisible runway. I`ve achieved this before by editing the properties of the runway and changing it into 'unknown'.
Click to expand...

UNKNOWN no longer works, the only way to make it invisible is to set the width zero.

Also, is it possible to slightly tilt a runway downhill. Say enough to make an aircraft roll?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately an AFD requires that the surface be flat. In fact, it will force the runways, taxiways and aprons to the airport height.

George
 
Many thanks for your reply. I`m sure when I tested again today and the object was seperate from the runway, then the runway wasn`t visible but I`ll check again. I don`t think a width of zero would help because I still need an aircraft on it, but again I`ll check.

It looks like this is going to be a big problem now so I`ll have to put my thinking cap on again and pull something out of the hat.

Reider
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VTX1800S
 
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Reider said:
I don`t think a width of zero would help because I still need an aircraft on it
Click to expand...

Yes an AI aicraft will, I have created 193 oil rig elevated runways with zero width and 30 metre lengths. AI helicopters take-off and land with no problems.

George
 
If needed, AI will also use zero width taxiways. This can be useful to get small AI aircraft off quickly without the visual impact of a grass taxiway, which are not particularly well implemented in FSX.

Colin
 
Golf-HotelDelta said:
Yes an AI aicraft will, I have created 193 oil rig elevated runways with zero width and 30 metre lengths. AI helicopters take-off and land with no problems.

George
Click to expand...

Thanks colin d, George many many thanks. this worked brilliantly! I now have to do the same thing three more times (for now) from the start with other locations. But before I do this my number one priority had to be to return and thank you for this. As was once said to me "may the fleas of a thousand camels infect thy enemies!"

Reider
________
Kawasaki ZG1200A
 
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I would like to add a word of caution.

In the case of Helipads the ATC is not a big concern because taxi is a minimum. IF ATC is part of the loop for AI traffic then the helicopter lands and is told to contact ground (if applicable).

FS uses a matrix for width vs length when compiling a runway but we also must look at 2 aspects of a runway which may work for one type AI (helicopter) but not another type AI (Plane).

The runway texture width is just as important to AI as is the runway link line (black). The link line is part of the overall taxiway network and the runway texture is part of the overall ATC Engine.

If you have ever landed a Plane and missed the runway (to the side, landed short, etc.) you will notice that the Tower immediately tells you to contact the Ground Controller even though you have not exited the runway yet during roll out.

This is because ATC knows 2 things. One, the wheels touched down and two, the wheels are (or are not) on a runway texture. There must be a minimum width for the runway texture so ATC knows the plane is on the runway and then waits until the wheels exit the texture before telling you to contact ground.

Now comes an additional problem with AI Planes that have to takeoff. If the 5000 ft runway is 0 ft wide (invisible) the AI Plane starts getting TrafficToolbox State instructions such as Preflight, preClearence, Clearence, Pushback 1 and 2, etc.

When the AI Plane reaches the holdshort node the Tower clears the AI onto the no texture runway into State Takeoff1. At this point many AI Planes get stuck at State Takeoff1 and never transition to State takeoff 2 which is Cleared for takoff and wheels begin to roll. The AI Plane will sit and eventually timeout.

My testing shows it is always the 3rd plane in line for takeoff that gets stuck which is based on a count and not a model type. It does not matter if it is a stock FSX C206 or a PAI B737.

The width of the runway texture for plane foot print is about 10 ft so ATC knows the plane landed or on active runway for takeoff and will give proper sequence commands. This is not to say you can't have an invisible runway but if by chance you set 0 ft width and have problems it will give some ideas on what to look for.
 
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Golf-HotelDelta said:
Yes an AI aicraft will, I have created 193 oil rig elevated runways with zero width and 30 metre lengths. AI helicopters take-off and land with no problems.

George
Click to expand...

Thanks once again to Jim Vile for some very useful comments, all noted and especially useful in the future.

George, perhaps prompted by the above I today began working on a Piper Alpha Offshore Rig (Aberdeen) and got the real life coordinates. I then manually flew up onto the landing pod some 150 feet up in the air and gathered the coordinates for Heading and Altitude from the EH101. From this I added the rig and made the landing pod GPS compatible as it is well out to sea, something that seems popular at the moment. I will add a supply ship/barge on a direct sea route from Aberdeen Harbour to and from the rig, possibly allowing this for landing on too.

I wanted to point this out before releasing in all fairness, although that is a way off yet. Its just a little fun for people and some added scenery for flying over. Especially with the recent calamity in the news regarding the rig. Hope this is ok as the original oil rig idea was not mine.

Reider
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SL175
 
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Hi Folks

Jim -
Cheers for the info.

Just for info -
AI helicopters are really AI planes, generally they use a motor-glider airfile.

For an offshore helideck,
being told to 'contact ground'
is preferable to 'exit runway when able'.

ISTR FSX runways are invisible for widths of 1 foot, (might possibly be anything under 1m)

PS
Regarding 'footprint',
which is relevant to the ATC/AI engine
is it wheel contact point, or model centre ?



Reider -
Would be interested in your Piper Alpha
for a time-machine version of our ODG sceneries.
George was also involved.
See sig for info.

Please let me know how you progress.

PS
Piper Alpha accident was in 1988.

ATB
Paul
 
Last edited:
BASys said:
Hi Folks

Jim -
Cheers for the info.

Just for info -
AI helicopters are really AI planes, generally they use a motor-glider airfile.

For an offshore helideck,
being told to 'contact ground'
is preferable to 'exit runway when able'.

ISTR FSX runways are invisible for widths of 1 foot, (might possibly be anything under 1m)

PS
Regarding 'footprint',
which is relevant to the ATC/AI engine
is it wheel contact point, or model centre ?



Reider -
Would be interested in your Piper Alpha
for a time-machine version of our ODG sceneries.
George was also involved.
See sig for info.

Please let me know how you progress.

PS
Piper Alpha accident was in 1988.

ATB
Paul
Click to expand...

Thanks for your interest and will let you know how it progresses. The incident I spoke about is a little more recent, 10.02.08 I believe.....

A 23-year-old woman has appeared in court after an alleged bomb threat triggered a major evacuation of a North Sea oil rig.

Little more than five hours after Grampian Police were alerted to the North Sea oil industry's first major security scare, the operation to evacuate more than 500 workers, involving police, coastguard and RAF teams, was being wound down.

Instead, as staff were returning to the platorm, a 23-year-old woman understood to have sparked the alarm was being flown to Aberdeen. She was later arrested and is expected to appear at Aberdeen Sheriff Court today.
Click to expand...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1304870,00.html

Reider
________
Rehab Community
 
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Hi Paul

For an offshore helideck,
being told to 'contact ground'
is preferable to 'exit runway when able'.
Click to expand...

Good point for the Helicopter operations you guy's use.

Regarding 'footprint',
which is relevant to the ATC/AI engine
is it wheel contact point, or model centre ?
Click to expand...

That I don't know.

In the early days of FS9 I started creating Crosswind AFCAD's for FlyTampa's KMIA. Because FlyTampa used all there own runway/taxiway textures it was assumed I could just use the runway link line and a apron taxiway line for all runway/taxiways. The apron taxiway line as you know works just fine so no texture is drawn. However it became clear that if the runway texture was decreased in width to less then 1 Meter then the AI and ATC verbage behavior could become unstable.

The smallest postage stamp runway texture that will compile since FS9 was released is 1M by 1M. The error is a generic value set as follows

INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2499: Runway length must be > 3.3 and < 50000.0 Feet.
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2031: Failed element parse <Runway>
INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR: #C2032: XML Parse Error! Element tree follows:

Why many User's never knew this is because AFCAD did not use the same rule when Lee made his compiler which will compile down to a smaller width x length.

If you start to lengthen the runway texture the width can eventually be set to 0 Meter but that gives you the ATC contact ground immediatly without the 'exit runway when able'.

In my original How to Crosswind a runway I specifically told everyone to use a 10 ft x 10 ft (1M x 1M) postage stamp runway for the 7.9 degree fake offset runways. I did not want to encounter any possible problem when the dll processed the postage stamp runways even thought AFCAD would compile a smaller value.

Like you say, for the helicopter pads it is what you want for realism but someone will come along and set a 5000 ft runway to 0 ft width and then wonder why things are not working correctly.
 
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