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Loacalizer/DME approach help

twharrell

twharrell

Messages
293
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us-virginia
ADE has been a such a joy to learn, as I've been realizing more and more what this program can do. Thank you to everyone involved at ScruffyDuck Software for your contribution to the flight sim community.

Now to the reason for this post...

I use FS9 exclusively. Currently, I am working on bringing KASE (Aspen, CO) up to date. Briefly, I downloaded a satellite image from Goodle maps and used it as a background for my stock FS9 airport, and used that image to trace all the taxiways and aprons. I then used some pictures I found online to create the 1000-ft displaced threshold extension and taxiways to the south end of the runway. I added the approximate gate locations for the airlines that serve Aspen (SkyWest, Frontier Regional, Mesa, American Eagle), as well as ramp parking for general aviation aircraft. When I discovered I could not only delete all the default taxiway signs that sat in the middle of my new aprons, but also create new taxiway signs, I about fell out of my chair. Your program has helped me completely bring this airport into 2012.

OK, now for the real reason for this post....

After accomplishing the above, I decided to add the LOC/DME-E Rwy 15 approach. I read the KIAD ILS tutorial sticky, and the relevant pages in the manual and figured, with a little trial and error, I could do this. While I realize the LOC/DME approach is already available through AVSIM, I wanted to do it myself. Overall, it was easy to do following John's steps in his tutorial. However, I have a few questions....

First, Here's the NOCA plate for the LOC/DME:

LOCDMEAppPlate.jpg

As you can see there are 2 IAFs - The waypoint AJAXX and the VOR DBL (Red Table). From either of those you fly to the intersection JARGU and the rest of the approach.

Question 1) What is the best way to add both AJAXX and DBL as IAFs? Should I add them as 'Approach IF' or should I add them as Transitions and then add JARGU as a fake IF (which is what I did)?

Next, the Missed approach is interesting. The MAP is 2.6 NM from the runway (3.9 NM from the LOC) at the waypoint CEYAG. You must fly a climbing right hand turn to 14,000 ft on a course of 300 degress and intercept the IPKN LOC 300 degree back course to LINDZ intersection then direct to GLENO intersection where you hold.

I ran into problems creating the code for the initial part of the missed segment. I tried starting with a 'VR' leg but the leg length was too much (it went well beyond LINDZ). In fact, no matter what leg type I chose, the 'leg' would blow past the LINDZ intersection. Also, the initial turn depicted by ADE (seen as the white turn in the image below) made it such that I had to adjust the magnetic course and altitude in order to intercept the IPKN LOC 300 degree BC. I finally settled on a magnetic course of 285 and altitude of 9780 (which is well below the MDA of 10020). I then set a 'CF' leg to LINDZ, another 'CF' leg to GLENO, and then established my 'HM' hold. Here's what my full approach looks like:

LOC-DMEappr.jpg

Question 2) I'm thinking there is an FS9 limitation that limits coding the missed segment perfectly. Does my 'fix' seem appropriate?

Question 3) The altitude I set for the first segment of the missed approach is 9780 feet. I had to do that to shorten the leg, so that I could intercept the 300 degree LOC backcourse and fly to LINDZ. This altitude is lower than the MDA of 10020. Is this a problem for users? I assume AI never go missed in IMC conditions, so the missed approach segment is for users only.

Question 4) What is Alt Desc? It's in the Leg properties box. I have it set to 'Not_Set', thinking it would be a protection.

I'll copy the XML code next, so you have all the info. I appreciate any critique, and welcome any suggestions to make this approach better.

Lastly, how can I get AI aircraft to land on Rwy 15 only and take off on Rwy 33 only? Or can I?

Todd
 
Here's the XML:

<Approach
type="LOCALIZER"
runway="15"
designator="NONE"
suffix="0"
gpsOverlay="FALSE"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DOYPE"
altitude="11700.0F"
heading="159.679993"
missedAltitude="10020.0F">
<ApproachLegs>
<Leg
type="IF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="JARGU"
altitudeDescriptor="+"
altitude1="9900.0F"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="KICER"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="FIMSO"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DOYPE"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="CEYAG"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
</ApproachLegs>
<MissedApproachLegs>
<Leg
type="VA"
magneticCourse="285"
altitudeDescriptor="NOT_SET"
altitude1="9780.0F"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="LINDZ"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="GLENO"
flyOver="TRUE"
theta="0"
rho="0.0N"
magneticCourse="0"
distance="0.0N"
/>
<Leg
type="HM"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="GLENO"
turnDirection="L"
magneticCourse="64"
time="1"
/>
</MissedApproachLegs>
<Transition
transitionType="FULL"
fixType="VOR"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DBL"
altitude="13400.0F">
<TransitionLegs>
</TransitionLegs>
</Transition>
<Transition
transitionType="FULL"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="AJAXX"
altitude="13400.0F">
<TransitionLegs>
</TransitionLegs>
</Transition>
</Approach>
 
Hi twharrell

DOYPE is not the FAF. KICER is the FAF (see my XML)

<
Approach
type="LOCALIZER"
runway="15"
designator="NONE"
suffix="0"
gpsOverlay="FALSE"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DOYPE"
Click to expand...



See if this XML will do what you want. This is FSX and you may have to add some additional T_Waypoints if FS9 does not have them.

<Approach
type="LOCALIZER"
runway="15"
designator="NONE"
suffix="0"
gpsOverlay="FALSE"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="KICER"
altitude="13000.0F"
heading="159"
missedAltitude="14000.001F">
<ApproachLegs>
<Leg
type="IF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="JARGU"
theta="327.7"
rho="11.7N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="13000.0F"
altitude2="13000.0F"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="KICER"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="327.7"
rho="9.4N"
magneticCourse="147.7"
distance="9.4N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="12800.0F"
altitude2="12800.0F"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DOYPE"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="327.7"
rho="5.2N"
magneticCourse="147.7"
distance="5.2N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="11700.0F"
altitude2="11700.0F"
/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="CEYAG"
flyOver="FALSE"
theta="327.7"
rho="2.6N"
magneticCourse="147.7"
distance="2.6N"
altitudeDescriptor="A"
altitude1="8750.0F"
altitude2="8750.0F"
/>
</ApproachLegs>
<MissedApproachLegs>
<Leg
type="CA"
magneticCourse="147.7"
altitudeDescriptor="+"
altitude1="8000.0F"/>
<Leg
type="CF"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="CROWS"
flyOver="FALSE"
turnDirection="R"
recommendedType="VOR"
recommendedRegion="K2"
recommendedIdent="DBL"
theta="205"
rho="9.1N"
magneticCourse="300"
distance="8.0N"
altitudeDescriptor="+"
altitude1="14000.001F"
/>
<Leg
type="TF"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="LINDZ"
magneticCourse="300"
/>
<Leg
type="TF"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="GLENO"
magneticCourse="244"
/>
<Leg
type="HM"
fixType="WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="GLENO"
turnDirection="L"
magneticCourse="64"
time="1"
/>
</MissedApproachLegs>
</Approach>


AJAXX would be a Transition to JARGU which your XML looks ok.

The ADE Approach Mode Editor should look like this. I placed a arrow to show JARGU should be the IF and KICER is the Header and FAF Fix.



The GPS for any of the Jet Aircraft will show this

 
Last edited:
Jim,

I appreciate your reply. A few things:

DOYPE is the FAF, as indicated by the maltese cross on the profile view in the chart I posted above. Is there a reason you named KICER as the FAF?

On your first missed approach leg, you indicated a climb to 8000 feet on a heading of 147.7, before making the right turn. The chart says to make an immediate climbing right turn to 300 degree course, while climbing to 14000 ft. Was that your code "fix" to make the missed approach look right?

I also noticed that the altitude you list for CEYAG is 8750. The MDA is 9840 ft for class A aircraft. Any reason you picked a lower altitude? I chose the class B altitude of 10020 because it's the middle of the 3. Will that work or should I use a lower altitude for CEYAG?

I'm uncertain as to what 'Alt desc' in the properties box means. There are 3 options - plus, minus, no set. What do those mean?

Jim, thank you once again.

Todd
 
twharrell said:
Jim,

I appreciate your reply. A few things:

DOYPE is the FAF, as indicated by the maltese cross on the profile view in the chart I posted above. Is there a reason you named KICER as the FAF?
Click to expand...

Hi Todd


My KASE is for those that fly with the default ATC system and have AI Planes landing at KASE. Your XML has the FS9 ATC approach controller telling you to descend to 11700 ft. and intercept the Loc just outside the DOYPE T_Waypoint.

The default intercept angle heading to a Loc heading is 30 degrees. Based on your ATC Header info (XML) ATC is going to fly you into a mountain prior to capturing the Loc.


<Approach
type="LOCALIZER" <<<<-------- ATC tells the User and the AI Plane what appr is in use
runway="15" <<<<<<<<<<<<<----------- ATC tells the User and the AI Plane what runway
designator="NONE"
suffix="0"
gpsOverlay="FALSE"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="DOYPE" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<---------- ATC is vectoring a turn to final appr just before DOYPE
altitude="11700.0F" <<<<<<<<------- ATC is decsending the User Ai Plane to 11700 ft which is below the surrounding peaks of the mountains.
heading="159.679993"
missedAltitude="10020.0F"> ATC tells the User and AI plane to climb to 10020 ft and that should be 14000 ft.
<ApproachLegs>

The above Approach Header is what ATC tells both the AI Plane and the User Plane what to do. In most cases the header will use the FAF but for KASE its much safer to use a T_Waypoint further out then DOYPE.

My XML Approach Header is so ATC will vector the User and the AI Plane on to the Localizer futher out then DOYPE. ATC will vector the intercept for the Loc somewhere around JARGU at 13000 ft.

Missed appr as per charts is 14000 ft

<Approach
type="LOCALIZER"
runway="15"
designator="NONE"
suffix="0"
gpsOverlay="FALSE"
fixType="TERMINAL_WAYPOINT"
fixRegion="K2"
fixIdent="KICER"
altitude="13000.0F"
heading="159"
missedAltitude="14000.001F">
<ApproachLegs>

Now comes the IF, CF, CF, CF, etc. legs. This is what draws the lines on the GPS. It does not matter which CF is the FAF as per the GPS. What matters is the Pilot knows by the chart which CF is the FAF and in this case its DOYPE.


On your first missed approach leg, you indicated a climb to 8000 feet on a heading of 147.7, before making the right turn. The chart says to make an immediate climbing right turn to 300 degree course, while climbing to 14000 ft. Was that your code "fix" to make the missed approach look right?
Click to expand...

Actually in the Approach Mode Utility missed approach section I used 9000 ft with the CA (Course to Altitude) from CEYAG. Since I used a CA leg the altitude helps get me on the BC.

You can try many different leg types such as a VI to see which works best for you.

I also noticed that the altitude you list for CEYAG is 8750. The MDA is 9840 ft for class A aircraft. Any reason you picked a lower altitude? I chose the class B altitude of 10020 because it's the middle of the 3. Will that work or should I use a lower altitude for CEYAG?
Click to expand...


Keep in mind that my Appr is a slice in time and has not been updated to more current charts. I wrote the Loc 15 Appr back in Feb. 2007 and that is what the Charts showed at that time.


I'm uncertain as to what 'Alt desc' in the properties box means. There are 3 options - plus, minus, no set. What do those mean?
Click to expand...

This is the full list found in the approach mode editor and the SDK.

altitudeDescriptor = Is the value that describes how altitude1 and altitude2 are interpreted. The SDK explains each symbol. Since Alt1 and Alt2 are in the option box of ADE then it is not a value that will stop the compiler if you do not set it. If you do use Alt1 and or Alt2 you will then see the VSR on the GPS diplaying a value of feet per second for the descent between each Fix during the appr.

 
Jim,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. This makes sense now. I am essentially creating code for the FS9 ATC and AI world, not necessarily for the user in terms of flying the approach (except displaying on the GPS).

I misunderstood what the missed altitude was in the properties dialog. I thought it was the MDA, not the target altitude for the missed approach - thanks for clarifyng.

Now, final question. I just tried to load my LOC approach onto the FS9 GPS and it isn't listed when I press the 'procedures' button. Any clue why that may be? Do I need to check the GPS overlay boxes?

You've been a huge help, Jim. Thanks!

Todd
 
Now, final question. I just tried to load my LOC approach onto the FS9 GPS and it isn't listed when I press the 'procedures' button. Any clue why that may be? Do I need to check the GPS overlay boxes?
Click to expand...

There is a set of steps to load the approach into the GPS.

Can you give me a little more info of what you see or dont see?
 
I slew to a point along my approach path. Press shift3 for the fs9 default gps, and press the procedures button (KASE is selected). Only the VOR approach appears. There is no menu to choose the approach. If I go to airport information, it mentions Localizer as the approach but I can't figure out how to load it.

Todd
 
Todd

It would help if you read some of the docs is FS9 on using the GPS. You have to use the mouse as if it were your fingers to push certain buttons and turn knobs to see all the approaches. The reason the VOR shows is because it is the first one on the list.

Of course all this is correct if you are sure you compiled the project .ad2 file with all the approaches listed. If you need more help you could attach your .ad2 project file to a post so I could look at it.
 
Jim,

The approach is in there. I'm used to using the RXP GNS530. The FS9 GPS is certainly similar, but clunky in comparison. Nevertheless, it's there.

Appreciate your help. I have another question about setting up a fake ILS for AI aircraft, but I think I'll put it in another thread later. It'll be tricky with the mountains.

Todd
 
Appreciate your help. I have another question about setting up a fake ILS for AI aircraft, but I think I'll put it in another thread later. It'll be tricky with the mountains.
Click to expand...

I have the fake ILS also in my KASE and the AI Planes fly it with no problems.
 
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