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Military Ramps

B

Bob Keeshan

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unitedstates
How do military ramps work differently than GA ramps?

I take it that you won't see military aircraft using these unless you have them as aircraft add-ons? There is an ANG wing at an airport I'm working on. If I have, for example, an f-16 add-on aircraft, will that aircraft only use the military ramps?

I did notice an Airbus was using the military ramps too. So, how does FSX or ADE treat military ramps differently than GA ramps?

Thank you.

BK
 
Unless you have added parking codes to your parking spots, any aircraft with a half wing span less than the parking spot radius will park there.

George
 
Military spots, GA spots and Cargo spots are all parking type RAMP

You can refine the atc_parking_types code with CARGO, MIL_COMBAT or MIL_CARGO - but they will still be ramp spots for overflow aircraft.

There is no way to EXCLUDE aircraft from a parking spot if the aircraft is smaller than the parking spot. Only to make it a less preferrable spot for that aircraft.

But the rule of adding parking to airports is that the airport must not be designed to match the real world.

It must be designed to match your AI flight plans.

If you have aircraft parking in the wrong area - you haven't put in enough parking for the AI traffic on your computer.

Also, if you want to setup the nice pretty lines on the ramp for drive through parking - expect your AI aircraft to not follow your planned setup.
 
rfields said:
But the rule of adding parking to airports is that the airport must not be designed to match the real world.

It must be designed to match your AI flight plans.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. So, how does one specify that an airport is a military-only airport? It doesn't sound like that is possible. However, I would think that MSFS would have something that tells it that non-military aircraft aren't allow to land/park at the airport.
 
Bob Keeshan said:
This is interesting. So, how does one specify that an airport is a military-only airport? It doesn't sound like that is possible. However, I would think that MSFS would have something that tells it that non-military aircraft aren't allow to land/park at the airport.
Click to expand...

Presumably if all the AI flight plans for the airport in question involve military aircraft then no other type will arrive and depart.............
 
If you want a mixture of both Military and Civil AI Planes at the same airport then I suggest downloading my KSAV at

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxafcad&DLID=103334

Open with ADE and study the parking codes/radius size in each Military parking spot vs the Parking of GA and Airliners.

Like Reggie says, you must have enough parking (plus overflow) of each available so a cascade effect does not start to happen.

To force a type plane into a spot you must also add a entry into each planes aircrfaft.cfg

Several examples for the Military at KSAV that park properly based on halfwing span


title=McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing DC-10 AI_USAF
atc_parking_types=GATE
atc_parking_codes=M002

title=Lockheed C-130E Hercules Camoflage
atc_parking_types=Mil_Cargo
atc_parking_codes=M003


Several examples for the Airliners at KSAV that park properly based on half wingspan

title=Boeing 737-700 AI_DAL_aia
atc_parking_types=GATE
atc_parking_codes=DAL

title=Airbus A320-200 AI_USA_NC_aie
atc_parking_types=GATE
atc_parking_codes=USA


So you match a Parking Spot radius to the Half wingspan
Set a parking type/code and have some overflow
Add a few more parking spots so no cascading begins. It only takes one wrong type plane to park where it should not to cascade the whole airport at of whack.
 
jvile said:
So you match a Parking Spot radius to the Half wingspan
Set a parking type/code and have some overflow
Add a few more parking spots so no cascading begins. It only takes one wrong type plane to park where it should not to cascade the whole airport at of whack.
Click to expand...

Jim,

Thanks again for your help with this. So, if I was creating parking for F-16s that have a wingspan of 32ft 8in, I would create a military_combat ramp with a radius of 17 ft. I would also need to make changes to the F-16 aircraft file to also limit their parking ability to military parking.

Thanks.

BK
 
Lets see, 32ft 8in is what the wingspan should be in the F-16 aircraft.cfg file correct?

divide by half gives us 16.4 converted to Meters is 4.99872.

We normally roundup to the whole meter value. For testing I would set the parking spot to 5.1 - 5.5 Meter

Type Parking Spot will be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

Down arrow on All Airlines list in the parking spot property window and go toward the bottom and find Mil F16. Highlight that line and hit the "+" button to the right which will set the parking Code to F16 in the Codes window.

Now that gets the parking spot setup in ADE.

Open your F16 aircraft.cfg and add the 2 lines to the [fltsim.X] sim section for that particular plane

atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT (matches what ADE has)
atc_parking_codes=F16 (matches what ADE has)

When the F-16 lands it starts looking for a parking space that the half wingspan will fit into. It then also looks at the parking codes for both the Parking spot and what you put into the Aircraft.cfg.

This will tell your AI to park in a RAMP_MIL_COMBAT
with a parking Code that says the F16 code is a match in 2 places.

If the parking spot is occupied then the F16 will look for the next one on the list (code more then one parking spot and always give yourself a extra if needed). If none exsit then the F16 starts to cascade looking for anything Meter wise it can park into. If nothing exsit at all the F16 disappears from the runway before it exits.

If you are flying the F16 as a user plane and no parking space exsit then ATC ground tells you to leave and no parking option is listed in the ATC window. You might get the Fuel Station if you are lucky.
 
I've often wondered! I thought it was a fluke that I wasn't offered a parking spot...only an exit runway! :) I knew the part about the ai, it was explained quite nicely by Burkhard Renk and now by you. But the user part is news to me, thank you.

This forum is an amazing resource, we're lucky to have it.

kagazi
 
A good illustration of this problem (some RAMP type aircraft parking on MIL spots) would be at my KSTL v1.1, in which I, to my chagrin, have a MIL_CARGO spot at 26.1m.

Do you know what this does/means?

It means that if you land at my KSTL with a DC-10 or MD-11 (both very common cargo haulers) that have atc_parking_types=CARGO, then you'll get vectored to the MIL_CARGO 26.1m spot, smack dab in the middle of the Missouri Air National Guard apron.

Not what I wanted.

I intended that spot for C-130's and similar mil aircraft. What you (or I) would need to do to fix, would be to set up a CARGO type parking spot of 26.1m up in the St. Louis Cargo apron. Or alternatively change the mil spot to a radius away from DC-10 size. That "should" do it.

I need to upload an ADE/AFX/FSXPlanner-friendly version so that users can make these mods themselves without destroying <SceneryObjects> and other functionality in the omnibus bgl's I was creating.
 
jvile said:
Lets see, 32ft 8in is what the wingspan should be in the F-16 aircraft.cfg file correct?

divide by half gives us 16.4 converted to Meters is 4.99872.

We normally roundup to the whole meter value. For testing I would set the parking spot to 5.1 - 5.5 Meter

Type Parking Spot will be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

Down arrow on All Airlines list in the parking spot property window and go toward the bottom and find Mil F16. Highlight that line and hit the "+" button to the right which will set the parking Code to F16 in the Codes window.

Now that gets the parking spot setup in ADE.

Open your F16 aircraft.cfg and add the 2 lines to the [fltsim.X] sim section for that particular plane

atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT (matches what ADE has)
atc_parking_codes=F16 (matches what ADE has)

When the F-16 lands it starts looking for a parking space that the half wingspan will fit into. It then also looks at the parking codes for both the Parking spot and what you put into the Aircraft.cfg.

This will tell your AI to park in a RAMP_MIL_COMBAT
with a parking Code that says the F16 code is a match in 2 places.
Click to expand...


Hey, Jim, I tried this with my F16 (Kirk Olsson version) and I still get directed to general aviation parking. Not quite sure why this is happening.

Here are the specs on the aircraft from the config file:

title=VIPER vc
sim=VIPER
model=1
panel=
sound=
texture=
checklists=
description=F-16 Fighting Falcon ---by Kirk Olsson---
ui_manufacturer=Lockheed Martin
ui_type=F-16 viper (USAF)
ui_variation=Clean (Virtual Cockpit Friendly)
atc_heavy=0
atc_id=94
atc_airline=Air Force
atc_flight_number=
atc_type=LOCKHEED
atc_model=F16
atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT
atc_parking_codes=F16

[I put the last two in based on your comments above]

I checked the wingspan on this model and it is below:

[airplane_geometry]
wing_area= 300.00
wing_span= 33.00

I setup the parking for the airport as Type: RAMP_MIL_COMBAT, Radius: 16.99, Codes:F16

Any thoughts on why I'm not being directed to these spots?
 
Are you flying the F16 or is it a AI Plane? If you are flying the F16 Plane then there are some added steps required to get ATC to park you correctly. But lets first make sure of the following.

I setup the parking for the airport as Type: RAMP_MIL_COMBAT, Radius: 16.99, Codes:F16
Click to expand...

Radius is set to 16.99 ft and not 16.99 Meter correct?

33 ft Wing Span = 16.5ft rounded to 17ft.

Parking spot size should be 17ft or 5.18M rounded up to the next whole number of 6.0 Meter. Use settings in ADE and change Meter to Ft (check) and back again (check) to confirm the correct size parking spot.


general aviation parking
Click to expand...

What did you use for parking name in the ADE parking spot?
 
Last edited:
Hi

I'm confused on a parameter in the aircraft.cfg file. The line atc_parking_types= must be:

1- atc_parking_types=RAMP_MIL_COMBAT

or

2- atc_parking_types=MIL_COMBAT

Regards

Ugo
 
Ugo

It must be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT for Jet type fighter planes and RAMP_MIL_CARGO for other type Military.

I have never seen a MIL_COMBAT and it is not in the list of the SDK. Do you see it listed somewhere?
 
jvile said:
Radius is set to 16.99 ft and not 16.99 Meter correct?

33 ft Wing Span = 16.5ft rounded to 17ft.

Parking spot size should be 17ft or 5.18M rounded up to the next whole number of 6.0 Meter. Use settings in ADE and change Meter to Ft (check) and back again (check) to confirm the correct size parking spot.
Click to expand...

Jim,

The radius is set to 16.99 ft. I originally used 17, but for some reason, ADE changes it to either 17.01 or 16.99. I went back and made it larger (20ft), but that didn't seem to make a difference.

What did you use for parking name in the ADE parking spot?
Click to expand...
I kept the default name, parking.

And yes, I was flying the F16 myself to check where ATC would park me.
 
Last edited:
All PARKING code NAMES and RAMP will always say taxi to General Aviation.

Only if you use a GATE or GATE_letter will ATC say taxi to Gate. Many Military guys set a Gate_M for military so it sounds more professional then having a DC10 being instructed to taxi to General Aviation.

Now the next question

Are you flying the F16 or is it a AI Plane?
 
jvile said:
All PARKING code NAMES and RAMP will always say taxi to General Aviation.

Only if you use a GATE or GATE_letter will ATC say taxi to Gate. Many Military guys set a Gate_M for military so it sounds more professional then having a DC10 being instructed to taxi to General Aviation.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will try this fix tonight. In my case, though, ATC was directing me to a non-military parking spot, or truly general aviation.

Now the next question

Are you flying the F16 or is it a AI Plane?
Click to expand...

Yes, I was flying the F-16 myself.
 
Last edited:
ATC was directly me to a non-military parking spot, or truly general aviation.

Yes, I was flying the F-16 myself.
Click to expand...

At this point because you are flying the plane as a User airplane all the rules change. Parking codes in the aircraft.cfg and in ADE are more of a qualifier for AI type planes and not the USER plane. This is not to say we can never park where we want but we have to use some priority coding for ATC to understand we are the User Plane and not a AI plane.

It would have been nice and we have asked many times for MS to honor a parking for the User plane just like the AI but that has not happened yet.

I have sent Reggie a PM to come in on this here and give us all the fundamentals on how to force ATC to park a User properly. Reggie has done extensive studies since FS2002 in parking behavior and has defined all the qualifiers for both the AI and User Parking.

Before anyone else jumps in here and says "well ACES says this or that" let me quote the SDK's.

Q: Is there a limit to the number of aircraft present at an airport ?

A: Yes. Airport traffic is limited by the number (and size) of parking spaces available at the airport. The largest parking space of each type (ramp, cargo, gate, etc.) is always reserved for the user aircraft and the rest may be allocated to AI traffic.
Click to expand...

These type SDK statements can be very misleading. First they are based on FP's that are generated with the MS TrafficDatabaseBuilder.exe (TDB) compiler and not what everyone uses called TTools designed by Lee Swordy who also gave us AFCAD.

We can pretty much throw out that rule because even with TDB FP's all qualifiers for parking must be weighted properly for it to work.

Its the holidays and Reggie spends a lot of time with Family/Grand Children. I am asking you to wait a few days until he is available so I don't say something that contradicts the actual qualifiers that ATC uses.
 
jvile said:
Ugo

It must be RAMP_MIL_COMBAT for Jet type fighter planes and RAMP_MIL_CARGO for other type Military.

I have never seen a MIL_COMBAT and it is not in the list of the SDK. Do you see it listed somewhere?
Click to expand...

I thought that the code to put in the line was unchanged from fs9...........:banghead:

Thanks for the clarification

Ugo
 
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