Default Library Object Will NOT Exclude in ADE

[kmanning]

Hi Jon,

I hope you can help me. Last week, I've installed an airport named bhm2008.zip, which can be downloaded from AVSIM. I've attached the file below. After installing the airport, I've noticed that the default Stock KBHM airport library object freight terminal is being displayed and it's not supposed to be displaced. The default library freight terminal is the one with the red X. Noticed that it overlaps the terminal in the file:

I've figured there was another KBHM file lingering around somewhere in the FSX that could be causing this. I've looked everywhere and I haven't found any file that should be causing this, so I don't know what's going on. So, I've tried to exclude the default freight terminal in the stock airport using the Exclude Rectangle, unchecked ALL, and checked Library Objects. I've saved the project and compiled it. Here's a screenshot showing how I did it:

I've placed the bgl file in a Scenery folder and added it to the Scenery Library in FSX. When I load the airport, the default freight terminal is still displayed. I've even launched the default KBHM airport and it still displays the freight terminal, even after I've excluded it. I must not be doing something right. I've read the manual several times and as far as I know, I've did everything correctly. But there's one thing that I've read that concerns me. It says in the manual that the Exclude Rectangle will not exclude Autogenerated Library Objects and when I place my mouse over the library object, I've noticed it says autogenerated. Is that the reason why it won't exclude? If that's the case, what can I do to get rid of the object? I've already tried turning down or turning off the Autogen in the sim and that did not make any difference. So I guess it's not the same thing. Oh, by the way, as far as I know, I don't think the Pro Key is required. I had a problem installing the ProKey because I would get an error message every time I try to open ADE and ADE would not work. But I finally found your online help with instructions on how to correct this.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

While awaiting a reply from Jon, you may wish to try using a CVX Vector exclude Polygon compiled by SDK SHP2VEC (which is not to be confused with an Exclusion Rectangle compiled by SDK BGLComp).

Reportedly an FSX Autogen object that is 'custom' must be excluded by a CVX Vector Polygon.

However, reportedly 'default' FSX Autogen objects placed as Library Objects can be excluded by a BGLComp Exclusion Rectangle.

I have not had time to test on my own FSX installation, which type of exclude is required to successfully eradicate the Freight Terminal in FSX default KBHM from the OBX24200.bgl previously cited- and discussed- in your other recent thread ...here:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...howing-up-in-my-airport-addon-for-fsx.456087/

So, it will be interesting to see what Jon's explanation may be for this scenario.

Clearly that building has the unique shape and size of the old KBHM Freight Terminal IRL.

However it is placed as a 'default' Library Object, thus one might be seeing a 'custom' object stored in the OBX BGL with placement info.

As you will see in the ADE manual, the Green Polygon icon on the ADE icon toolbar is the one used to draw the CVX Vector Polygon.


AFAIK the ADE manual should explain which GUID must be used for this type of "Autogenerated" airport object exclude.


Thus far, the FS Developer forums has yielded very little Google search results for "Autogenerated":

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/objects-from-obx-files.436099/

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/ade-1-79-7417-development-version.447374/

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/p3dv5-stock-road-street-lights.448141/


https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...R-KBbEQ8tMDegQIBRAE&biw=1216&bih=582&dpr=1.58


This thread at AVSIM which refers to P3D says one needs to place Autogenerated building excludes in a separate layer:

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/573428-removing-default-airport-buildings/page/3/


ADE online help for MSFS 2020 suggests, IMHO, that one may need to use a FSX / P3D ("Park" ?) type CVX Vector Polygon exclude:

http://www.scruffyduck.org.uk/ade_2020_help/DeleteRecordsandExclusions.html

GaryGB

 

[scruffyduck]

I am away at the moment and do not have any sims available to try replication. I should be back in my office at the weekend

 

[GaryGB]

Thanks for checking in, Jon.

I also tried an Exclude Rectangle over the top Left corner that intercepted the "handle" for the FSX default Freight Terminal: ...no exclude.

Then I tried a CVX vector (Terrain) Exclusion Polygon tightly around the building, set to Exclude Specific > AutoGen: ...no exclude.

Finally, I tried a CVX vector (Terrain) Exclusion Polygon tightly around the building, set to Exclude General > Everything: ...no exclude.


Hmmm... I thought we had these sorted out years ago; but it is always good to learn something new.

I believe many of us here would appreciate a refresher course on these seemingly under-documented OBX*.bgl objects.

It is interesting that they were actually in use already with FSX ...before P3Dv4.x RTM.


BTW: A CVX vector (Terrain) Exclusion Polygon set to Exclude Specific > Auto shows in the List dialog, but not in ADE 1.79x work-space.

HEEELLLP !

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Thanks Jon for checking in and I'm looking forward to learning more about this. I should let you know that I've had bhm2008.zip installed in the past on Windows 7 and Windows XP systems and it has never displayed that default freight building. But now I have Windows 10 Pro and after installing this addon last week, that's when I noticed it, and this is the first time it has ever done that. It's strange that it only displays the default freight terminal building and not the other library objects, such as the parking deck and the main terminals, because these are also library objects using the same OBX.bgl. I've also noticed that the original bhm2008 airport file is a AF2 file, if that means anything.

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

I also tried an Exclude Rectangle over the top Left corner that intercepted the "handle" for the FSX default Freight Terminal: ...no exclude.

Then I tried a CVX vector (Terrain) Exclusion Polygon tightly around the building, set to Exclude Specific > AutoGen: ...no exclude.

Finally, I tried a CVX vector (Terrain) Exclusion Polygon tightly around the building, set to Exclude General > Everything: ...no exclude.

Hi Gary,

I've also tried the CVX vector exclusions a few days ago and neither one worked.


Ken.

 

[kmanning]

Hi Gary,

From what I understand, you tried excluding this default freight terminal. Well, I'm not sure how you're going about excluding the stock airport freight terminal but I've been doing this all wrong. I was trying to exclude the object using the stock airport because that's where the object originates. Every time I exclude the object in the stock and load the stock airport in FSX, the freight terminal was still always there even though I've excluded it. I've always thought that one should be able to exclude an object using the same stock airport file. Of course when one compiles it, it's a different file but it's still has the same scenery as the stock. But it seems to me that if one excludes a library object in the stock, it should load in the sim with the same scenery, but with the excluded object gone. But it was always there, and you said you had the same results. That was why it would also show up in my addon KBHM 2008. So I got to thinking that maybe it's not possible to exclude an object from a stock airport file. Since the addon KBHM 2008 does not have the default object in it's airport file, I have no way of knowing where to draw my exclusion rectangle, other than drawing the exclusion rectangle that covers the entire airport. So, I've took note and wrote down the center coordinates as well as the coordinate shown in the pop up when you place the mouse over the exclusion rectangle. I loaded the KBHM 2008 in ADE, drew my exclusion rectangle and placed it in the exact same location as the stock. I compiled the airport and replaced my compiled KBHM 2008 bgl file with the AF2_KBHM.bgl file in the addon. I loaded the sim and now the default freight terminal is gone. I don't know if I'm correct but apparently, it is not possible to exclude an object in an airport stock file. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if an object can be excluded from a stock airport file, then for some reason, it's not doing. Hopefully Jon will explain these things when he returns. I'll attached my file below so that you can try it and let me know if it gets rid of the default freight terminal.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that if you look towards the N.W. on a heading of 280 degrees while in slew mode sitting on runway 24, you'll noticed that there's a plateau just north and north west of the airport. Have you noticed that?

This one is sitting near runway 24 looking towards the N.W.

This one is looking N.W. at about 1,000 feet.


This is caused by a file that's named BHM_LWM2_Flatten.bgl. It's supposed to be a flatten but instead this file creates a plateau, and I don't see any reason for having this file. So, I just removed it and the plateau is gone. You can load this in TMFViwer, and also load the cvx2420.bgl and it seems that, for some reason, this developer was trying to place a plateau north and northwest of the airport and there is no plateau there:

What do you make of this? See my KBHM 2008 airport file below. Let me know if the KBHM Stock Freight Terminal is gone.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

If I use your attached KBHM_2008_ADEX_KM.bgl instead of AF2_KBHM.bgl in the BHM2008 scenery folder, the Freight Terminal is excluded.; however, without exiting that flight session, if I then load my saved flight from a session with a copy of FSX KBHM stock airport, it is not.

AFAIK, a saved flight should only change aircraft, its location, the time of day / year, and the weather ...not airport BGL file load info.

This is bizarre.

Indeed, this merits an explanation by Jon, but to be fair, this also demonstrates a behavior of saved flights previously unknown to me.

If we exclude from any Area layer at a higher priority than the FSX stock KBHM Area layer, we "should" exclude that Freight Terminal.

I will look further at this tomorrow morning (Friday), and will make a separate exclude BGL to place in an Area layer above BHM2008 in Scenery.Cfg / Scenery Library GUI stack of Area layers, which will use just Geographic coordinates for the rectangular area closely surrounding the Freight Terminal ...rather than a very large Exclusion Rectangle in your test airport BGL.

I will also take a look at the "plateau" resulting from the LWM flatten included in BHM2008.

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Hi Gary,

I sent you the wrong file that fixed this problem by another method I've found on the Internet. This method may be what's causing the other issue you've explained. It's time for me to go to bed and I will explain that method later today. This is the bgl I meant to send to you earlier, and is the method I've used to fix the exclusion problem. Just replace this one with the one I sent earlier and let me know if you have the same issue.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

The most recent BGL attached immediately above does exclude the stock Freight Terminal "Autogenerated" object.

If you make a ZIP backup of the LWM flatten, and then delete the original BGL, the "plateau" will be gone.

Perhaps the BHM2008 developer had a different lower resolution-, or a un-corrected higher resolution- terrain mesh installed with a "pit"?

It appears you now have a working exclude for the unwanted stock Freight Terminal; that was some good troubleshooting on your part.

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

however, without exiting that flight session, if I then load my saved flight from a session with a copy of FSX KBHM stock airport, it is not.

Hi Gary,

I really didn't understand what you were saying here but I think I understand it now. It goes back to what I was saying earlier that it must not be possible to exclude a default object using a stock airport file in ADE, compiling it, and placing that blg file, which is a copy of the stock airport, and placing it in the sim expecting the default freight building to be gone. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that but that is exactly what's taking place every time. The exclusion only works for me when I place the exclude in an "addon airport." I just had to get the coordinates from the stock airport default object so that I would know exactly where to place that exclude rectangle in the addon, since the BHM2008 addon does not show the default object in ADE.

If you make a ZIP backup of the LWM flatten, and then delete the original BGL, the "plateau" will be gone.

That's what I did.

Perhaps the BHM2008 developer had a different lower resolution-, or a un-corrected higher resolution- terrain mesh installed with a "pit"?

Yes, it could have been.


Regarding the information I found on the internet, here's a youtube video that explains how to remove default objects that show up in 3rd party addons. I was planning to wait until we hear from Jon before posting this video so that I don't create confusion, but I guess it's okay to post it now.

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

Just thought I mention that I just found out that if you replace the KBHM 2008 airport bgl file with another KBHM bgl airport file, say from 1970 that was created previously, the default terminal shows up again. This is a very strange why it would do that.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

I recommend not using (1) huge BGLComp Exclusion Rectangle that covers the entire airport to eliminate all stock items.

If you are attempting to make a copy of KBHM that is circa 1970, AFAIK, "some" of the stock buildings may still exist on the airport.

If you have eliminated those stock items that were also present in 1970, you will have to either re-place them, or edit your Exclusion(s).

I suggest only using small Exclusions immediately surrounding the (likely) RefPoint of the object; usually- but not always- at its center.


It certainly may be practical to make a 'test' BGLComp Exclusion Rectangle that covers the entire airport to eliminate all stock items, just to verify that you are able to exclude certain objects with that type of Exclude, but be prepared to edit that Exclude to retain other objects.

It is entirely too easy to get confused by swapping airport BGLs in and out of the FS run time render, so be careful.


AFAIK, all you need to do is "include an Exclude" for the Freight Terminal in all BGLs for KBHM.

If the top priority version of KBHM in Scenery.Cfg loads without an Exclusion Rectangle for the stock Freight Terminal ...it 'may' show up.

Just be certain to always load any airport BGL you intend to use ...in ADE to see if it needs any Excludes to be added before compilation.


I believe we have sufficiently identified the solution for the problem cited in your OP for this topic ...which now involves (2) threads.

Thus, IMHO we should not expect Jon to allocate his limited available time to addressing this further as he had so kindly offered to do.

I think the appropriate course of action would now be to mark this (and the other related thread on this topic) ...SOLVED.

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

I believe we have sufficiently identified the solution for the problem cited in your OP for this topic ...which now involves (2) threads.

Thus, IMHO we should not expect Jon to allocate his limited available time to addressing this further as he had so kindly offered to do.

I think the appropriate course of action would now be to mark this (and the other related thread on this topic) ...SOLVED.Gary,

Gary,

The reason for starting this thread was to get additional answers from Jon that may be beneficial for me, since he knows more about the program. Jon continues to answer questions to others here so why can I have the same privilege? I was afraid that if I went ahead and said anything about having the problem fixed that something like this would be stated. It has all of sudden went from waiting to hear from Jon to marking this as solved. That's why I don't like to post ahead of others and wind up missing out on something that may very well be beneficial for me. What I should have done was waited until after Jon had replied before posting that I have the problem fixed. It's not only about getting the problem fixed. It's also about gaining more knowledge that may be beneficial for me.

Ken.

 

[scruffyduck]

Since this seems refer to me and my response to questions and request for assistance. The first thing I will say is that I am currently limited in time and scope with respect to responding here and elsewhere. I have a range of non flight sim, real world situations that are taking priority.

There is also the issue of trying to support upward of six different flavors (versions) of FS9>P3Dv5 and MSFS which is a completely different kettle of fish.

So if I respond to some topics and posts but not others it's not personal. I do admit that sometimes long posts defeat me in having the time to understand and respond. Sometimes it is the shorter ones that get attention. Again, there is nothing personal here.

Finally, I am basically a programmer and generally others who use my software are much more likely to understand 'how to' posts than I am. I am most appreciative of folks like Gary, Tom and others who step in to provide assistance on a range of issues.

With respect to this specific thread, I lost sight of it and have not yet been able to get back up to speed. Is it possible to summarize the issues in the topic then I will certainly undertake to look at it.

 

[GaryGB]

Gary,

The reason for starting this thread was to get additional answers from Jon that may be beneficial for me, since he knows more about the program. Jon continues to answer questions to others here so why can I have the same privilege? I was afraid that if I went ahead and said anything about having the problem fixed that something like this would be stated. It has all of sudden went from waiting to hear from Jon to marking this as solved. That's why I don't like to post ahead of others and wind up missing out on something that may very well be beneficial for me. What I should have done was waited until after Jon had replied before posting that I have the problem fixed. It's not only about getting the problem fixed. It's also about gaining more knowledge that may be beneficial for me.

Ken.

Hi Ken:

It is your your option to inquire further into the topic of this- and your prior- thread; IIUC, Jon may / may not have time to reply.


Perhaps we might simply ask Jon:

Does ADE by default create a tiny Exclusion Rectangle for any default airport objects in the local scenery Area OBX*.BGL file ?


If not, IIUC, ADE by default allows the original KBHM Freight Terminal be displayed when it processes the stock KBHM airport BGL.

I am doubtful this is because ADE has internal logic to determine if a OBX Freight Terminal is considered a core part of the airport.

Thus, ADE opts to not de-compile the local scenery Area OBX*.BGL file to see what- if anything- pertains to an airport it loaded.

AFAIK, ADE only deals with info that is inside airport BGLs; that is plenty of work to keep Jon from "counting sheep" until Dawn.


AFAIK, ADE by default only creates excludes for 'certain' scenery objects placed by the airport BGL's compiled internal XML code.

[EDITED]

It is not yet clear whether ADE automatically creates a micro-exclude for airport-specific objects that it loads from OBX*.BGLs .

If MS ACES decided to create part of the "stock" KBHM airport using Generic Buildings 'autogenerated' but placed via BGLComp XML by a OBX*.BGL, is it always the responsibility of a ADE user to manually create an Exclusion Rectangle for that Freight Terminal ?

If a replacement airport BGL is derived from a stock airport via ADE, is it by default not going to exclude the KBHM Freight Terminal ?

If one uses ADE to derive from a stock airport, a modern- or a historical (circa 1970)- KBHM, must one still manually create an Exclusion Rectangle to eradicate the Freight Terminal ...in every airport derived from the FSX stock airport (...including 3rd party airport BGLs) ?


To see what airport objects may require manually created Exclusion Rectangles, ADE does have the ability to import (other) stock data:

https://scruffyduck.screenstepslive.../l/199775-importing-stock-data-into-a-project

https://www.google.com/search?q=FSX...gBzQOSAQMwLjSYAQCgAQHIAQLAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz


Pending Jon's further clarification in answer to questions above, I believe this is the extent of any "take-away" one needs to remember.

Although Jon may- or may not- wish to comment further here, if I have misunderstood something here, I would welcome clarifications.

[END_EDIT]

IMHO, what would be most "beneficial" for Ken, and other would-be helpers here, is for Ken to do more self-study and "RTFM".

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Since this seems refer to me and my response to questions and request for assistance. The first thing I will say is that I am currently limited in time and scope with respect to responding here and elsewhere. I have a range of non flight sim, real world situations that are taking priority.

There is also the issue of trying to support upward of six different flavors (versions) of FS9>P3Dv5 and MSFS which is a completely different kettle of fish.

So if I respond to some topics and posts but not others it's not personal. I do admit that sometimes long posts defeat me in having the time to understand and respond. Sometimes it is the shorter ones that get attention. Again, there is nothing personal here.

Finally, I am basically a programmer and generally others who use my software are much more likely to understand 'how to' posts than I am. I am most appreciative of folks like Gary, Tom and others who step in to provide assistance on a range of issues.

With respect to this specific thread, I lost sight of it and have not yet been able to get back up to speed. Is it possible to summarize the issues in the topic then I will certainly undertake to look at it.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for checking in and letting me know of all your other tasks that must take priority that prevents you from having the time to answer all these posts, especially the long ones. I can understand that would be quite a task. I admit that my posts get pretty long at times. Yes, I'll try to summarize all my questions and keep them simple. Once again, thanks for checking in.

Ken.

 

[kmanning]

Perhaps we might simply ask Jon:

Does ADE by default create a tiny Exclusion Rectangle for any default airport objects in the local scenery Area OBX*.BGL file ?

I would like to know that too.

I believe this is the extent of any "take-away" one needs to remember.

Jon may or may not wish to comment further here, and if I have misunderstood something here, I would welcome clarifications.

IMHO, what would be most "beneficial" for Ken, and other would-be helpers here, is for Ken to do more self-study and "RTFM".

THAT is exactly what I've been doing and all I've been doing is self-study and RTFM. You're suggesting here that I have not been doing that and that is an outright lie. I have spent countless hours reading the manual and if there's something that I don't understand, it is my right to come here and get help. I'm not suggesting that I expect anyone to reply that doesn't have the limited time. This forum is supposed to be the place to come to get help, not to be criticize that one should do more self-study and reading the manual.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

IMHO, what would be most "beneficial" for Ken, and other would-be helpers here, is for Ken to do more self-study and "RTFM".

GaryGB

Hi Ken:

I have no doubt that you have been making a diligent effort; I merely stated that more self-study / "RTFM" would be most "beneficial".

Thus, I'm NOT suggesting here that you have not been doing that, and my statement quoted above is NOT an outright lie.


But not all information is readily comprehensible, and it certainly may help sometimes, to have someone explain something for us.


A few folks here may have the time and inclination to engage in an ongoing tutorial; but AFAIK, most folks here do not have the time.

Thus most replies here are likely to be rather brief, and communicated in the terms that are from the SDK, Manuals, Forums etc.


Any unfamiliar terms IMHO should be researched by the person who does not understand them via RTFM-ing and/or Googling, not by immediately asking a person to explain their terminology; the terminology is already in common use among the FS Community.

This is the primary point I have been attempting to make to you for some period of time.

In a related manner, some folks might be more inclined to reply if an FS project file is posted, rather than a long verbal description.

I do note your recent efforts to adapt your style of inquiry, and I believe that may also prove "beneficial" to your learning over time.

GaryGB

 

[scruffyduck]

*** WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE OBJ FILE NOT OBX. ***

When you create a project from a stock airport ADE automatically creates micro excludes for stock objects. Their location depends on whether the users sets up compile for separate airport and scenery (OBJ). If this option is set then the excludes are located in the OBJ file. If not they are located at the top of the airport bgl file before the airport.

Micro excludes allow users to delete (exclude) stock buildings in a project simply by the user deleting the object in the ADE display.

There are some issues with this for some users. But generally this has been a part of ADE since the early days

• Micro excludes are not visible in the ADE project for the reason given in the next bullet. If they cannot be seen then users may add their own exclusion rectangles which can conflict with micro excludes. You can identify micro excludes with the raw data view.
• User have tended to look at these small excludes and conclude they do not want them or understand them so delete them. This results in stock buildings not being excluded and showing through.

This is a stock airport, and the micro excludes are not visible

However, they can be seen in the raw data view

They will also appear if the user decompiles a bgl file that contains them and this does cause confusion for users not familiar with them The tendency again is to either move them about or delete them

I hope that helps a bit