MSFS24 2024 LOD system is horrible, how to get models to stay sharp for a reasonable distance using MCX lod creator

[astaticmusic]

This is a ongoing discussion, I know. I spent a couple days doing trial and error and I cant seem to get the models to maintain a sharpness that is satisfactory, at least just far enough out from the lod 100 to where they dont turn into a distorted pile of mush. I have tried everything i can think of using different grid sizes and both styles of lod creation tactics. Does anyone have a work flow that works to keep the model (building) sharp and detailed within a reasonable distance? funny thing is...when i load/use the msfs20 version of the airport, the models are perfect and stay detailed for a good distance, and there is 0 fps difference, always getting great performance. but the minute i make a new build with msfs24, the new lod system takes over and the models vanish after 100 ft (if even that far)or turn into a distorted lump. using mcx I cant seem to find the magic formula/numbers.

Can anyone share a workflow for msfs24 using mcx that actually preserves the integity of the model? Please and thank you!!

 

[astaticmusic]

Perhaps @arno might have a solution?

 

[arno]

No, sorry, I don't actively develop for MSFS myself. I added support for the MSFS 2024 LOD system in MCX as good as I can (with indication in the LOD Creator what the maximum LOD number is based on triangle count). But can't tell you what the best development workflow is. Maybe this question is best asked in the general 3D object forum, as it is not MCX specific.

 

[GaryGB]

This is a ongoing discussion, I know. I spent a couple days doing trial and error and I cant seem to get the models to maintain a sharpness that is satisfactory, at least just far enough out from the lod 100 to where they dont turn into a distorted pile of mush. I have tried everything i can think of using different grid sizes and both styles of lod creation tactics. Does anyone have a work flow that works to keep the model (building) sharp and detailed within a reasonable distance? funny thing is...when i load/use the msfs20 version of the airport, the models are perfect and stay detailed for a good distance, and there is 0 fps difference, always getting great performance. but the minute i make a new build with msfs24, the new lod system takes over and the models vanish after 100 ft (if even that far)or turn into a distorted lump. using mcx I cant seem to find the magic formula/numbers.

Can anyone share a workflow for msfs24 using MCX that actually preserves the integrity of the model? Please and thank you!!

Which MSFS airport ICAO does this discussion thread specifically involve ?


When displayed in MSFS 2024, which "msfs20" version of the airport models are perfect and stay detailed for a good distance:

* Your own custom 3D model ?

...or:

* Asobo's default 3D model ?


If your custom 3D model compiled using MSFS 2020 FsPackageTool:

* Have you tried recompiling a copy of it using MSFS 2024 FsPackageTool ?

* Have you tried recompiling a copy of the 3D model made as a SimPropContainer ?

https://docs.flightsimulator.com/ms...y_Editor/Objects/SimPropContainer_Objects.htm

https://docs.flightsimulator.com/ms...ling/Landscape/Modeling_SimPropContainers.htm

https://docs.flightsimulator.com/msfs2024/html/3_Models_And_Textures/Modeling/Landscape/#lods

https://docs.flightsimulator.com/ms...s/Modeling/LODs/LOD_Technical_Information.htm


https://www.google.com/search?q=site:+www.fsdeveloper.com+SimPropContainer&sca_esv=b306c554b4eb75d4&ei=hIBnaZbuKJHFp84PtrGe6A4&ved=0ahUKEwiWwKGG-YqSAxWR4skDHbaYB-0Q4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=site:+www.fsdeveloper.com+SimPropContainer&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKnNpdGU6IHd3dy5mc2RldmVsb3Blci5jb20gU2ltUHJvcENvbnRhaW5lcjIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABSN0uUOYIWOYIcAJ4AJABAJgBsgGgAaYCqgEDMC4yuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIEoAKDA8ICDhAAGIAEGLADGIYDGIoFwgIIECEYoAEYwwSYAwCIBgGQBgGSBwUyLjEuMaAHhAeyBwUwLjEuMbgH2ALCBwMzLTTIBzCACAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp



If Asobo's default 3D model compiled using MSFS 2020 FsPackageTool, have you compared / studied its LOD visual preview appearance vs. triangle count via MCX ?

If Asobo's default 3D model compiled using MSFS 2024 FsPackageTool, have you compared / studied its numeric LOD vs. triangle count via MCX ?


However, bear in mind this MSFS 2024 SDK LOD caveat:

"NOTE: numbers like polycount or the ratios between different LODs, can be a bit of a "trap". It often happens that artists try to reach the approximate Vertex Count Limits and then stop optimizing. We do not recommend this! LOD optimisation is good not when a specific number is reached, but when no more vertices can be moved or removed without clearly loosing the shape of the model at the maximum size on screen it is supposed to be seen. Working this way will ensure that the polycount is always below budget."

GaryGB

 

[Christian Bahr]

@astaticmusic
Rest assured, contrary to what the thread title might suggest, the MSFS24 LOD system is not horrible. On the contrary, the MSFS24 LOD system works almost perfectly after SU4.
I'm currently transferring some MSFS projects to MSFS24, and my observation is that the development team has done a great job with the LOD system

But without knowing which program you're using, it's difficult to help you further. So, one thing at a time ;-)
Which 3D program are you using, 3DS Max or Blender?

By the way
There isn't one single technique for creating LOD models. For example, 3DS Max offers at least four different techniques
Could this thread perhaps be moved to a different forum?

 

[GaryGB]

Historically, the OP's history of posts here at FSDEV, makes it likely he alludes to ongoing use of Sketchup for 3D modeling.

...My kinda' workflow, too.



Historically, the OP's thread may be an 'ongoing' inquiry related to LODs, and use of MCX as a tool for implementing LODs:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search/2090569/?c[users]=astaticmusic&o=date



Historically, Microsoft's FS SDK is glacially slow to accommodate end user 3D modeling apps besides 3DSMAX / GMAX / Blender.


Historically, besides 3D model conversion, MCX imports / edits / outputs 3D MDLs without having to use 3DSMAX / GMAX.


Arno gradually added various features to MCX, and IMHO, LOD Creator may be very helpful for would-be MSFS 2024 developers.

LODs are a "controversial" topic; but we should not want Arno to incur the wrath of developers frustrated with MS-Asobo.


I suggest before tugging on Arno's sleeve, developers with questions about use of MCX LOD Creator should first:

* RTFM

* Review linked info and a video by Arno in this post:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/creating-lods-in-blender.460539/post-937677


Notice in Arno's video regarding LOD Creator he actually displays a 3D preview in addition to reporting "Triangles".

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php?title=ModelConverterX_LOD_Creator_preview_video

IIUC, this should allow MSFS 2024 developers clearly visible thresholds that define settings to use- (and not use-) ...for LODs.


FYI: You may play this and other Flash-based videos with Ruffle:

https://ruffle.rs/



* If asking questions in FSDEV forums, be direct and specific; do not post vague queries that merely "fish" for someone's help.

This is a ongoing discussion, I know. I spent a couple days doing trial and error and I cant seem to get the models to maintain a sharpness that is satisfactory, at least just far enough out from the LOD 100 to where they don't turn into a distorted pile of mush. I have tried everything i can think of using different grid sizes and both styles of LOD creation tactics. Does anyone have a work flow that works to keep the model (building) sharp and detailed within a reasonable distance? funny thing is...when I load/use the msfs20 version of the airport, the models are perfect and stay detailed for a good distance, and there is 0 fps difference, always getting great performance. but the minute I make a new build with msfs24, the new LOD system takes over and the models vanish after 100 ft (if even that far) or turn into a distorted lump. Using MCX I cant seem to find the magic formula/numbers.

Can anyone share a workflow for msfs24 using MCX that actually preserves the integrity of the model? Please and thank you!!

IMHO, it is apparent the OP has an ongoing inquiry regarding use of MCX LOD Creator directed to / answered by Arno.

AFAIK, suggestions to move this thread elsewhere are topically "incompatible" with the nature of the OP's ongoing inquiry.


I do agree MSFS 2024 SDK allows numerous methods for LOD generation ...now required, but without providing its own tool.

GaryGB

 

[astaticmusic]

No, sorry, I don't actively develop for MSFS myself. I added support for the MSFS 2024 LOD system in MCX as good as I can (with indication in the LOD Creator what the maximum LOD number is based on triangle count). But can't tell you what the best development workflow is. Maybe this question is best asked in the general 3D object forum, as it is not MCX specific.

Thanks.

@astaticmusic
Rest assured, contrary to what the thread title might suggest, the MSFS24 LOD system is not horrible. On the contrary, the MSFS24 LOD system works almost perfectly after SU4.
I'm currently transferring some MSFS projects to MSFS24, and my observation is that the development team has done a great job with the LOD system

But without knowing which program you're using, it's difficult to help you further. So, one thing at a time ;-)
Which 3D program are you using, 3DS Max or Blender?

By the way
There isn't one single technique for creating LOD models. For example, 3DS Max offers at least four different techniques
Could this thread perhaps be moved to a different forum?

Sketchup. and thats the problem - if i were using blender or another one, i would probably be doing the lods in those programs. But in this case I am simply trying to use a model (shouldnt matter where it was created) and run the lod creator on it to generate lods that would suffice, but no matter what combinations of grid sizes and etc... the lods always come out crumpled looking after the first "switch". I am just asking if anyone else uses it successfully, or has ever used it successfully or if i am just wasting days trying different methods that - in the end- wont work either way.

Historically, the OP's history of posts here at FSDEV, makes it likely he alludes to ongoing use of Sketchup for 3D modeling.

...My kinda' workflow, too.



Historically, the OP's thread may be an 'ongoing' inquiry related to LODs, and use of MCX as a tool for implementing LODs:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/search/2090569/?c[users]=astaticmusic&o=date



Historically, Microsoft's FS SDK is glacially slow to accommodate end user 3D modeling apps besides 3DSMAX / GMAX / Blender.


Historically, besides 3D model conversion, MCX imports / edits / outputs 3D MDLs without having to use 3DSMAX / GMAX.


Arno gradually added various features to MCX, and IMHO, LOD Creator may be very helpful for would-be MSFS 2024 developers.

LODs are a "controversial" topic; but we should not want Arno to incur the wrath of developers frustrated with MS-Asobo.


I suggest before tugging on Arno's sleeve, developers with questions about use of MCX LOD Creator should first:

* RTFM

* Review linked info and a video by Arno in this post:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/creating-lods-in-blender.460539/post-937677


Notice in Arno's video regarding LOD Creator he actually displays a 3D preview in addition to reporting "Triangles".

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php?title=ModelConverterX_LOD_Creator_preview_video

IIUC, this should allow MSFS 2024 developers clear thresholds that define settings to use- (and not use-) ...for LODs.


FYI: You may play this and other Flash-based videos with Ruffle:

https://ruffle.rs/



* If asking questions in FSDEV forums, be direct and specific; do not post vague queries that merely "fish" for someone's help.




IMHO, it is apparent the OP has an ongoing inquiry regarding use of MCX LOD Creator directed to / answered by Arno.

AFAIK, suggestion to move this thread elsewhere are topically "incompatible" with the nature of the OP's ongoing inquiry.


I do agree MSFS 2024 SDK allows numerous methods for LOD generation ...now required, but without providing its own tool.

GaryGB

Thanks Gary. you are correct. sketchup is the program. guess i should finish my blender training.

 

[arno]

Sketchup. and thats the problem - if i were using blender or another one, i would probably be doing the lods in those programs. But in this case I am simply trying to use a model (shouldnt matter where it was created) and run the lod creator on it to generate lods that would suffice, but no matter what combinations of grid sizes and etc... the lods always come out crumpled looking after the first "switch". I am just asking if anyone else uses it successfully, or has ever used it successfully or if i am just wasting days trying different methods that - in the end- wont work either way.

Why would SketchUp be that different from other modelling tools? Do you have an idea in which parts of your object the complexity is that needs to be reduced to get less triangles/vertices? Do you for example have many cylinders or similar geometry that takes a lot of triangles, but can be simplified by using less points to represent the same shape?

Another thought I get from reading your message is that you assume that a LOD Creator tool can always automatically make the most suitable LOD. That is of course not true. For many models developers that use Blender or 3DS Max will manually have to create the LODs of the model. And you can do the same in SketchUp of course. You can make a copy of your model and simplify it yourself in SketchUp. Then in ModelConverterX you can merge them into one model as different LODs. Or you could manually export each of them to a glTF file and edit the model XML to use them as the correct LOD.

Maybe you can show us a picture of your object, that might help to figure out what the best strategy could be.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi again, Tim.

For your sake and that of other would-be users of MCX LOD Creator, and to avoid accidentally casting doubt upon functionality of Arno's code, it would IMHO be appropriate for you to make your example airport project object available to Arno via a direct message, and answer the questions I posted in my initial reply above in this thread:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...ance-using-mcx-lod-creator.460556/post-937950

I daresay that Arno's MCX LOD Creator can work successfully for you (regardless of the 3D modeling application used to generate the original MCX-imported 3D geometry) ...without an objectionable result.

GaryGB

 

[Christian Bahr]

Sketchup. and thats the problem - if i were using blender or another one, i would probably be doing the lods in those programs. But in this case I am simply trying to use a model (shouldnt matter where it was created) and run the lod creator on it to generate lods that would suffice, but no matter what combinations of grid sizes and etc... the lods always come out crumpled looking after the first "switch". I am just asking if anyone else uses it successfully, or has ever used it successfully or if i am just wasting days trying different methods that - in the end- wont work either way.

Okay, I understand. But I don't understand why you're using such a catchy title. It's obviously not due to the LOD system of MSFS24, but rather the 3D program itself, right?
I could have given you valuable tips for 3DS Max and possibly Gmax, and I'm sure many others could have given you tips for Blender. But SketchUp is quite specialized, so I wish you the best of luck

 

[Christian Bahr]

I do agree MSFS 2024 SDK allows numerous methods for LOD generation ...now required, but without providing its own tool.

Levels of detail (LODs) have actually been needed for a very long time, even back in the days of FSX. In densely populated areas, for example, they are indispensable, as otherwise far too many polygons/textures would have to be rendered in a very small space.

The tools for LOD optimization are built into the 3D programs themselves. In Blender, it's the Decimate modifier; in 3ds Max, for example, it's MultiRes and ProOptimizer. But SketchUp doesn't seem to have this; it would "only" require a script or plugin. Perhaps someone could ask a developer who uses SketchUp if they could create such a plugin/script? But that's just an idea of mine

 

[rhumbaflappy]

As usual with a discussion of this type, this is a dead-end, unless you give us an attached zip file with an example, or a link to cloud storage. Otherwise this is just guessing as to the actual solution.

 

[Tim Collins]

As a dedicated SketchUp user myself, though not for MSFS20 or 24, I've found that the best way of dealing with LODs is having a powerful enough computer that you don't need them! Failing that, I create the LOD models myself and merge them in MCX - it gives me more control of the process and the result.

However, I'm back into learning Blender again as texturing SketchUp models for PBR is a PITA!

 

[arno]

In MSFS 2024 having a powerfull computer is no reason to not use LOD anymore. In the new LOD system there is a maximum number of vertices that the engine will show at a given LOD and thus distance. Which means you always need to add LOD to big and complex objects to prevent them from dissapearing too soon.

But like multiple people said before, with a little more information about your object and where the complexity is we can probably give better tips on how to make the LOD.

 

[Tim Collins]

It's not my topic, Arno - I was just injecting a little levity!

 

[GaryGB]

Asobo "forces" us to use LODs, because without them, the object disappears entirely at a certain distance (thus the angst for FS developers).

Asobo essentially threatened to change MSFS 2024 functionality if we keep cheating and using invisible Faces / Polys as it messes with XBOX.

So we are compelled whether we like it or not, to implement actual LODs in our MSFS glTF objects, if we wish to use PBR etc.


I am pleased in MSFS 2020, my FSX XtoMDL 3D models with NO LODs do NOT disappear (...how do you like THAT, Asobo ? ).


(1 diffuse non-PBR) Photo-real texture Material with globally illuminated imagery = "As Real As It Gets".

(Multiple PBR) synthetic texture Materials with FS-generated illumination and ambient occlusion = "As Real As Contrived".


AFAIK, if we have a powerful enough computer we can just use scaled versions of our full detail objects for all LODs and not "decimate".


In high object density scenery that may compromise performance severely; but it might work OK in sparse object density bush scenery.


Considering the OP's Terminal-1 at KSTL released via RealWorldScenery (RWS) label as an example, SimPropContainers may help.


Sketchup 3D models using Groups / Components may easily be utilized to make an "instanced" multi-object SimPropContainer 'scene'.

Hmmm... I wonder if MCX can be used to output a SimPropContainer 'scene' via adaptation of MCX' existing code base ?


https://www.google.com/search?q=KSTL+released+via+RealWorldScenery+(RWS)&sca_esv=e4930b54a8b6c4ed&source=hp&ei=l3lqaZuiDaqw0PEPgdakqQ8&iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaWqHp1VnlyqSP8G9dyqKpchwgmyvyKjV&ved=0ahUKEwjbyc7uzpCSAxUqGDQIHQErKfUQ4dUDCBY&oq=KSTL+released+via+RealWorldScenery+(RWS)&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IihLU1RMIHJlbGVhc2VkIHZpYSBSZWFsV29ybGRTY2VuZXJ5IChSV1MpMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVI3w9QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBogGgAaIBqgEDMC4xuAEMyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKtAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH6AKyBwMwLjG4B60BwgcDMy0xyAcIgAgA&sclient=gws-wiz


https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...-progress-msfs-fsx-v4-4-v5.447990/post-884605

GaryGB

 

[rhumbaflappy]

Does anyone have a work flow that works to keep the model (building) sharp and detailed within a reasonable distance?

Click Calculate to get the 40, then in "From LOD:" use the drop down to select 40 and calculate.... Keep selecting the next LOD down and click Calculate until you get a full set. You then need to export with the saved textures as MSFS2024. It works well. Quadratic based error works best.

You might want to change the LOD xml to something like this:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<ModelInfo guid="{c46a6a2a-2da9-4e78-9b9a-aaadb11898de}" version="1.1">
  <LODS>
    <LOD minSize="6" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD0.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="5" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD1.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="4" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD2.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="3" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD3.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="2" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD4.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="1" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD5.gltf"/>
  </LODS>
</ModelInfo>

The sim chooses the LOD display minsize. It ignores your settings. Asobo makes their XML files like this.

 

[astaticmusic]

View attachment 98726

Click Calculate to get the 40, then in "From LOD:" use the drop down to select 40 and calculate.... Keep selecting the next LOD down and click Calculate until you get a full set. You then need to export with the saved textures as MSFS2024. It works well. Quadratic based error works best.

You might want to change the LOD xml to something like this:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<ModelInfo guid="{c46a6a2a-2da9-4e78-9b9a-aaadb11898de}" version="1.1">
  <LODS>
    <LOD minSize="6" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD0.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="5" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD1.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="4" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD2.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="3" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD3.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="2" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD4.gltf"/>
    <LOD minSize="1" ModelFile="My_Mariscal_Sucre_Building_07_LOD5.gltf"/>
  </LODS>
</ModelInfo>

The sim chooses the LOD display minsize. It ignores your settings. Asobo makes their XML files like this.

Thanks Dick, thats kinda what i was wondering. I have done the same using the other option, "vertex clustering" , i was simply wondering if anyone was using this lod maker, and how. as far as changing the xml, i have not tried that, i figured if i changed something in there it might alter the output. I will give that a shot.

 

[astaticmusic]

Asobo "forces" us to use LODs, because without them, the object disappears entirely at a certain distance (thus the angst for FS developers).

Asobo essentially threatened to change MSFS 2024 functionality if we keep cheating and using invisible Faces / Polys as it messes with XBOX.

So we are compelled whether we like it or not, to implement actual LODs in our MSFS glTF objects, if we wish to use PBR etc.


I am pleased in MSFS 2020, my FSX XtoMDL 3D models with NO LODs do NOT disappear (...how do you like THAT, Asobo ? ).


(1 diffuse non-PBR) Photo-real texture Material with globally illuminated imagery = "As Real As It Gets".

(Multiple PBR) synthetic texture Materials with FS-generated illumination and ambient occlusion = "As Real As Contrived".


AFAIK, if we have a powerful enough computer we can just use scaled versions of our full detail objects for all LODs and not "decimate".

Why this may be feasible:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-m&q=MSFS SmallPartsRejectRadius#lfId=ChxjMe


In high object density scenery that may compromise performance severely; but it might work OK in sparse object density bush scenery.


Considering the OP's Terminal-1 at KSTL released via RealWorldScenery (RWS) label as an example, SimPropContainers may help.


Sketchup 3D models using Groups / Components may easily be utilized to make an "instanced" multi-object SimPropContainer 'scene'.

Hmmm... I wonder if MCX can be used to output a SimPropContainer 'scene' via adaptation of MCX' existing code base ?


https://www.google.com/search?q=KSTL+released+via+RealWorldScenery+(RWS)&sca_esv=e4930b54a8b6c4ed&source=hp&ei=l3lqaZuiDaqw0PEPgdakqQ8&iflsig=AFdpzrgAAAAAaWqHp1VnlyqSP8G9dyqKpchwgmyvyKjV&ved=0ahUKEwjbyc7uzpCSAxUqGDQIHQErKfUQ4dUDCBY&oq=KSTL+released+via+RealWorldScenery+(RWS)&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IihLU1RMIHJlbGVhc2VkIHZpYSBSZWFsV29ybGRTY2VuZXJ5IChSV1MpMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVI3w9QAFgAcAB4AJABAJgBogGgAaIBqgEDMC4xuAEMyAEA-AEC-AEBmAIBoAKtAZgDAJIHAzAuMaAH6AKyBwMwLjG4B60BwgcDMy0xyAcIgAgA&sclient=gws-wiz


https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...-progress-msfs-fsx-v4-4-v5.447990/post-884605

GaryGB

Hi Gary, I need to delve deeperinto the simpropcontainer thing, was just waiting until i had the time to devote to rebuilding the thing from that angle, which looks like it would need to be done from scratch..kinda...

 

[astaticmusic]

Here is the link to the model, let me know if it works or not, i dont usually use dropbox. this model does not have any lods, just the basic model. At the airport using the SDk for msfs24, and after building it using fs24, the building disappears at about 75 ft. If i use the msfs2020 version of the airport in msfs24, the buildings are working fine, and are visable from a very long distance, with 0 performance issues (seemingly)

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com