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Engine Performance Data

E

Engjell Berisha

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40
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us-newyork
I keep reading through thread after thread in this forum where someone is trying to get more accurate data on table 150X... The biggest issue apart from understanding how these tables are setup seems to be that we lack good enough data on the engines we're trying to model.

That being said I would like to start a thread were we can collect and share in one place information on engines that we may be working on.

I am presently working on the GE CF6-80C2B7F (B767-200ER), GE CF6-80C2B8F (B767-400ER), and the P&W JT8D-17A (B737-200Adv). My primary sources of information on these engines have been the FAA TCDS's for the aircraft and the engines. While this provides me with pretty accurate data on the engine limitations I am left lacking a lot of in between information. It doesn't cover things that I would need for some of the 150X tables.

The FAA TCDS Database can be accessed here.

Boeing 767-200/300/300F/400ER

GE CF6-80 Several Models

Boeing 737 Series

JT8D Several Models

I hope we can keep this thread going!
 
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What would be needed is Static thrust, Static N1/N2, Static fuel flow, and corrected ram drag charts. People can make these on their own of course, but without these the other data, including TCDS, is pretty useless.
 
Anyone know of any performance manual for 737-200 series aircraft?

Heretic, do I have to pay to access that B727 Manual you posted a link to? No quite sure how to navigate that website.

I'm looking for some solid fuel consumption figures on the 737-200. Also I can not confirm that the 737-200 used the JT8D-17R I can only confirm it used the -17A. Anyone have any firm proof that the -17R was used? Look for information on those to engine models on the 732 in particular.
 
I'm aware of the site Roy. However that is really the only place I have seen to indicate that the -17AR was used on the 732. The FAA TCDS only lists the -17A. I assume that it could've been a foreign carrier to use the -17AR.

While jet-engine.net has great information. I'm not sure where it came from and not sure that it is a reputable source. I use the information on there only when I don't have any other information.
 
Heretic,

I have that document as well. However it's the only reputable place that I have seen this mentioned. The document is also for airport planning. It references the -17R as being on the airplane as well but I have never seen any other mention of this. My point here is that perhaps these were options available but since they are not on the TCDS I suspect that they might never have been but on aircraft. At least U.S. certified aircraft.

I also find it odd that the document lists the -17R and AR together. The difference in thrust is 1000lbs. Although I suppose this code not make a difference in efficiency.

Perhaps I am being too picky here. Especially since I don't want to pay for 732 performance tables. All I want is some reputable concrete evidence of -17R and/or -17AR engines used on a 732, if possible who were those operators and lastly I want some performance tables on the engines (JT8D-17/A/AR/R).

From the Boeing 737 Airplane Charateristics document you listed Heretic, I can derive some performance things but not much. For example on the "PAYLOAD/RANGE FOR LONG-RANGE CRUISE" for the ADVANCED 737-200 WITH 17/A/AR/R I can essentially derive a fuel flow but that is a very rough figure. It also doesn't say what LRC is according to that chart. Other research shows that LRC is .73 but I am unsure of this either.

There is also what seems to me a typo here. On those pages in that document it lists the Fuel Capacity as 59570 U.S. Gallons. Clearly not right. I doubt Boeing cares to update it though.

The main purpose of my rant/quest is that I want some realistic fuel flow figures for the flight envelope of the aircraft.
 
Engjell Berisha said:
The main purpose of my rant/quest is that I want some realistic fuel flow figures for the flight envelope of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Good luck with that. Without some fuel dump gauge magic, you can either set TSFC for cruise or climb or idle, but not all three.


And yes, you are way too picky. ;P
 
If the TCDS contains multiple engine models in one cert, then they are all they same engine. You can use data from one to find data for the other, as long as you are able to correctly map out the fan speeds. There may be slight differences in EPR or fuel flow, but a simple swap of a few parts, and you can interchange them 'usually'. If it is the same engine, then an aircraft that was certified for one version is also certified for the others as well. This has lead to many instances where operators have used different thrust rated engines on the same airframe. They can only do this if the engine is within the type certification (same engine). The catch here is the aircraft would 'usually' never be manufactured with the other engine models, and when they models are mixed, the thrust of all the engines must be derated to equal the lowest power plant installed.

The JT8D was well known for this interchangeability. Engine models were frequently swapped to keep aircraft in the air.
 
Jx,

While I understand this. In your post lies my problem. I want to make sure I am using the right model with the right parameters (EPR, fuel flow, thrust, etc). There is a big difference in thrust throughout the JT8D range. But I am really hitting a wall here.

As of right now I've got a decent airfile but I am getting a little bit too much worked up chasing it too perfection perhaps. I've got pretty realistic fuel flow figures at crusie and I guess I should be happy with that.

Heretic, I know you're working on the JT8D as well. I gather it's for the 732 models? How are you progressing?

P.S. I gotta figure out how to quote in this new forum layout.
 
Engjell Berisha said:
I want to make sure I am using the right model with the right parameters (EPR, fuel flow, thrust, etc). There is a big difference in thrust throughout the JT8D range. But I am really hitting a wall here.
Click to expand...

Seriously, just settle for a -17A. The -200Adv definitely used it.

As of right now I've got a decent airfile but I am getting a little bit too much worked up chasing it too perfection perhaps. I've got pretty realistic fuel flow figures at crusie and I guess I should be happy with that.
Click to expand...

Yes. As I've said and as the professional FDE guys can attest, you can only tailor FDE files for a single segment of a flight.

Heretic, I know you're working on the JT8D as well. I gather it's for the 732 models? How are you progressing?
Click to expand...

No, 727-200Adv, but JT8D-17A. And FSX is making implementation a living hell, so I've shifted to other stuff for now.
I also do not intend to go 99,9%.
 
I was originally using the -17A because I was more confident in the figures I had for that than any other and it was the highest thrust engine that I had good data for. I suppose it's wisest I go back to that.

While I've been following your progress in the other threads here and have read you and everyone else say that I can only be accurate to one segment of the flight I somehow still though I could fix it. I realize I'm an idiot and need to face reality in order to make any progress.

I know I started out thinking I can get the implementation to 100%...but realized as I get farther and farther into each development I have that my hand is forced lower and lower by the limitations of the simulator. Truly saddening sometimes. Especially since you would theoretically think these things would be easy. Like we could we have another table....call it 15XX and have it be TSFC over a given range. This would be such a godsend to engine modeling.

Having a couple of project going at the same time is key to decreasing the risk of developmer suicide. C-17, B764ER, B732, PA-28-161 III, GNS-430, EFIS-84 & EFIS-85, are just some of the projects I am presently working on. All at the same time. If I get anymore I might actually take your claim to fame of worst developer of all time.
 
Engjell Berisha said:
While I've been following your progress in the other threads here and have read you and everyone else say that I can only be accurate to one segment of the flight I somehow still though I could fix it. I realize I'm an idiot and need to face reality in order to make any progress.
Click to expand...

Or get into SimConnect programming and program an application implementing a more extensive approach to TSFC handling.

I've already thought about it, but like you, I simply don't have the time.
 
lol at the moping comment

@Engjell Berisha

The sim is much more solid than you think, it is mostly a misunderstanding of the process in the developer community...but you are correct, there is a fuel bug.

Use Doug Dawson's fuel gauge for you fuel issues (works in all FSUIPC compatible sims.) Set up static ISA fuel flow by CN1 (gross thrust at one set TSFC), then correct dynamically to ambient conditions.

Chart the thrust at SSL, then spend your time figuring out the aircraft's drag and ram drag. All the answers you need are there.




As for your engine model, the B737-200 had

CERTIFICATION BASIS CAR 13 effective June 15, 1956,
as amended by 13-1, 13-2, 13-3, 13-4, and 13-5.
DATE OF TYPE CERTIFICATE
MODEL, DATE OF APPLICATION, NO. E2EA ISSUED/REVISED
JT8D-1 July 5, 1962 February 1, 1963
JT8D-1A February 25, 1971 April 7, 1971
JT8D-1B July 1, 1975 August 14, 1975
JT8D-5 January 24, 1963 February 1, 1963
JT8D-7 January 30, 1966 March 24, 1966
JT8D-7A July 1, 1970 August 4, 1970
JT8D-7B July 1, 1975 August 14, 1975
JT8D-9 September 16, 1966 May 23, 1967
JT8D-9A March 28, 1973 May 30, 1973
JT8D-11 April 19, 1968 September 25, 1968
JT8D-15 October 14, 1969 April 7, 1971
JT8D-15A March 13, 1980 January 26, 1982
JT8D-17 January 15, 1973 February 1, 1974
JT8D-17A March 13, 1980 January 26, 1982
JT8D-17R May 15, 1974 April 29, 1976
JT8D-17AR March 13, 1980 January 26, 1983

All of these were built onto production aircraft. You will need to research the exact airline model (or even airframe serial number) to find out what was installed. There have been several third party retrofits as well.


This site may help if you haven't seen it yet http://www.b737.org.uk/index.htm
 
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