Export with explicit normals (Max)

[capt_x]

Hi all.

Has anyone tried to export a model from Max after setting vertex normals manually for better smoothing? Since Max provides control over the vertex normals, i thought it would be nice to use this to resolve some lighting issues on my model (instead of increasing polycount). So I tried to export a cube/box (ePoly) with all edges hard (3 normals per vertex) except one vertex with only one normal. But, Nada. All normals are standard. Since the ACES-exporter triangulates the model on export,
1. Could it be that it also recalculates normals based on smoothing groups?
2. Can i prevent this from happening?

I can manually edit vertex normals in the .x-file before passing it to 'XToMdl', and the model in the sim looks just the way i want, so it is possible! But, that workaround is ok for a cube, whereas cubes usually don't fly that good... Thanks for any input on this.

Cheers

Felix

PS - For explanation: Explicit Normals are manually altered normals vs. Calculated Normals that result from smoothing algorithms. Generally used in low-poly-modelling...

 

[capt_x]

Ok. seems to be of little interest, but i'll just continue to post progress here

I've exported an x-file with custom normals from Max with the Panda-plugin, altered the file manually to fit the FSX-DirectX-format and compiled with XToMdl. Works fine and best of all, the sim shows the custom normals! It would have been great to have that ability in the ACES-exporter... I'm now thinking of a maxscript to handle it all in one pass. Of course this means starting an exporter from scratch, unless i could get hold of (tinker, tinker)... nah!

Stay tuned...

 

[capt_x]

Scene I, Part 3, Monolog of Felix...

I'm gone hacking. So there may be some distro-issues, but... I started a little library (GUP) for max to publish some useful functions to maxscript. Integrating that into the exporter is no big deal, as I found out.

Think of integrating any post-processing for the X-File in there... Sure enough, I cannot distribute the altered ACES maxscript files. But what I need to know: am I getting myself into trouble if I write a readme with the GUP that says: add this line in this script and change these two values in that script?

Felix

 

[capt_x]

Testers welcome!

For the rare Maxer who wants to try it out... This is a beta, preliminary testing OK. If it is of any use, i will post it to the download section once it is proven relatively stable (or after i use it for couple of weeks). Readme included...

In case you wondered what this is all about:

You may now call me names

Enjoy!

Felix

PS: I integrated it into the export-script and use it as default export method.

 

[monotwix]

Well done thank you I’ll give that a try.

 

[n4gix]

As soon as I install Max8 on my new development computer, I'll give your script a whirl...

...although I'm unclear as to why simply using Smoothing Groups properly won't achieve the same results...

 

[capt_x]

Hi Bill,

in the case shown above, cargo doors and fuse are separate objects, hence smoothing groups won't work across the border, whereas the 'edit normals'-modifier allows simultaneous selection of several objects. Don't know if grouping the objects would've helped, didn't try. The second advantage is total control of the vertex normals, as given by the modifier (which is why i actually wrote it). With smoothing groups, normals calculation is still up to Max. You could attach the doors to the fuse, set up SM-groups properly and skin-animate the door, sure. Or use the 'Edit Normals'-Modifier and animate the doors without skinning

Greetz
Felix

 

[capt_x]

Note: Since i don't have any previous version of Max installed, i would love to read reports from Max 7/8 modellers. All methods and interfaces used should work fine with Max (32bit) from version 6 upwards.

Thanks
Felix

 

[monotwix]

It looks like there is a compatibility issue with max7 the FSPP has failed to initialise on the start up but certainly it would be a valuable solution when dealing with normals.

Thanks!

 

[capt_x]

Sorry, monotwix. I've included a backport version now, check again.

 

[n4gix]

Hi Bill,

in the case shown above, cargo doors and fuse are separate objects, hence smoothing groups won't work across the border, whereas the 'edit normals'-modifier allows simultaneous selection of several objects.

Strange... I've created dozens of models and have never encountered such a problem either with Max or GMax...

Perhaps it is my technique. After cutting out the doors, hatches, etc. I then (re)Attach them to the fuselage, UVW Map, and create/apply the Material.

After ensuring that my mapping is satisfactory, I then Detach by Element each of the previously (re)Attached doors, hatches, etc. and animate as needed.

Note that there is nothing to give away the two nosebay hatches, nor the port aft cargo door...

Shot at 2009-04-07

 

[monotwix]

Detaching a door by element? hmm it’s a cool hint nevertheless occasionally the normals adjustment very useful on an object it’s self, it is also cool to be able to export them.

Capt x thanks for the update, it has loaded with no errors but I can’t piece the script together in the listener, do you think you could throw in an example of what it should look like I.e. noob friendly/er?

 

[capt_x]

Strange... I've created dozens of models and have never encountered such a problem either with Max or GMax...

Perhaps it is my technique.

I know your accuracy from reading your countless valuable posts and seeing your work. So don't be surprised if I suggest that it must be your mesh. Lazy people like me fake the lighting to camouflage poor meshes

Cheers

Edit: I really must be missing something. Select faces->Detach->Detach to Element->OK. Normals change. It doesn't keep the smoothing for me. Can you spot any error?

 

[capt_x]

Capt x thanks for the update, it has loaded with no errors but I can’t piece the script together in the listener, do you think you could throw in an example of what it should look like I.e. noob friendly/er?

You're welcome.

the last line is valid if you exported with "Choose Export File" unchecked. Hope this helps.

 

[monotwix]

I did a test and it came up with successful result which is fantastic.
Thanks a bunch.

 

[n4gix]

I know your accuracy from reading your countless valuable posts and seeing your work. So don't be surprised if I suggest that it must be your mesh. Lazy people like me fake the lighting to camouflage poor meshes

Cheers

Edit: I really must be missing something. Select faces->Detach->Detach to Element->OK. Normals change. It doesn't keep the smoothing for me. Can you spot any error?

The following three images should be pretty much self-explanatory. Although this project is in GMax, it works precisely the same way in Max.

Select Door by Element...

Shot at 2009-05-18

Shot at 2009-05-18

Shot at 2009-05-18

As the nose appears in FSX...

Shot at 2009-05-18

 

[capt_x]

ok, that illustrates my point pretty well. recall my first post...

Since Max provides control over the vertex normals, i thought it would be nice to use this to resolve some lighting issues on my model (instead of increasing polycount)

With that amount of lenghtwise edgeloops, controlling curvature is not such a pain as with this (specially on the flatter top region):

your mesh is simply too refined to notice the normals shifting. and harder to clean up. But maybe low-poly is just obsolete nowadays...

 

[n4gix]

Okay, I'll concede your point there. However, you can still have your cake and eat it too...

That particular mesh was originally created as an FS2002 model, then upconverted for FS2004, now further refined for FSX.

All my new mesh however only has that level of complexity where it's needed and will do the most good...

But, aside from AI a/c, the triangle count is no where near as critical as it has been in the past. Now the cross to bear revolves around total vertices (mesh and texture) as well as draw calls.

The chief problem I face is trying to balance the requirements of FS9 along with the somewhat different requirements for FSX. That's a real challenge!

 

[tiberiu11]

Strange... I've created dozens of models and have never encountered such a problem either with Max or GMax...

Perhaps it is my technique. After cutting out the doors, hatches, etc. I then (re)Attach them to the fuselage, UVW Map, and create/apply the Material.

After ensuring that my mapping is satisfactory, I then Detach by Element each of the previously (re)Attached doors, hatches, etc. and animate as needed.

Note that there is nothing to give away the two nosebay hatches, nor the port aft cargo door...

Shot at 2009-04-07

That is one beautiful XLS model, Bill. It seems that the modeler is very good and he was able to make a perfect model without any poly stress!

Tiberiu

 

[n4gix]

That is one beautiful XLS model, Bill. It seems that the modeler is very good and he was able to make a perfect model without any poly stress!

Tiberiu

Hi stranger! Yes, you did an excellent job on the original model...

I have of course made some minor changes along the way, but it is essentially the same mesh. What has changed significantly is the way that it's been (re)UVW Mapped to take advantage of the latest options in FSX, as well as larger texture sizes.

Hopefully it will actually get released some day...