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Finding real world Oswald e and CD induced

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jx_

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I'm sure many people wonder how Oswald e is found. I'm also sure many people use the CDi formula CL^2 / pi*AR*e to find CDi. Well, here is the dilemma for FS FDE designers.... if I need Oswald e to find CDi, how on earth is e determined in the first place and what should I set it to in my aircraft.cfg??? If you don't have real flight test data (and even if you do) how do you find the real world induced drag???

Below is a discussion of how to do those two things. It is advanced, but explains things in a way that even beginners will get enough to figure it out. Consequently, all formulas and definitions are explained thoroughly.


The mechanics:


When a wing is installed on an actual airplane, there is an additional force applied to it in flight that doesn't happen in a wind tunnel. As air spills around the wingtip it causes a downward load on the rear of the wing. Because a wing in flight has nothing solid to support it, the only way for the wing to counter this force is by allowing the downward force until the weathervane effect of the airflow can balance it out. This causes the wing to fly at a higher angle of attack than needed. It also increases the downwash angle.

This is half of the problem. The other half is the airflow begins to turn before it reaches the leading edge of the wing, so the wing is flying through airflow that is already turned some. The average of this effect is half of the downwash angle. This is shown by the middle green arrow in the image below.


attachment.php



This new angle of attack is called the induced angle of attack or ai for Alpha induced. It is probably the most important variable in aircraft wing performance, but it is never published. The induced angle of attack increases the wing angle of attack, and so changes the lift direction angle rearward. This is because the angle of attack required to produce a specific amount of lift at a given airspeed is constant. So the wing angle of attack becomes the induced angle of attack + required angle of attack to produce current lift. This required angle of attack is called the Effective AoA, or ae for Alpha effective. Alpha effective is half of the downwash angle. If you remember from the previous paragraph, the effective AoA is caused by the airflow already starting to turn and is present even in a wind tunnel. The effective angle of attack is based from the effective airflow angle. The top of the induced angle of attack is the base of the effective angle of attack, and matches the effective airflow angle (which is averaged). The is shown in red by the image below.

Induced drag is created by the difference between the effective airflow and the relative airflow, and is perpendicular to the induced AoA (which is equal to the effective airflow angle). Mathematically this looks like:

Actual alpha = Alpha induced + Alpha effective



400px-Induce_drag_downwash.png




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Because of the lack of detailed information available, and far too many so called 'internet experts', there are several popular misconceptions about induced drag. One of them is that the wingtip vortex creates an actual drag force. This is not true. The force the vortex applies to the wing is dissipated by the counter balance of the wing. In other words, as the vortex tries to rotate the wing, nose up... the airflow is countering it and trying to rotate the airplane nose down. The wing wants to weathervane into the wind. The two forces find a balance point which is the new induced angle. At this point the vortex force is dissipated, but not without a consequence. The wing angle and lift angle are now tilted rearward. Induced drag is solely the product of the rearward lift that is produced when the lift angle is tilted slightly rearward. This also produces a higher Lift coefficient when measured against the wing AoA, but an equal or lesser Lift coefficient when measured against the fuselage AoA. This is because the higher downwash angle will produce more lift, but the rear tilt of the lift transmits less lift upwards.



attachment.php




note: Contrary to popular belief the vortex force actually increases parasite drag by increasing the frontal area of the wings and entire fuselage. This is accounted for in CDparasite so we can forget about it for this discussion.



Finding Oswald e:

Now that we understand ae and ai we can find Oswald e, but in order to find Oswald e we need to find Alpha induced or CDi first; or 2D Cl_alpha. This is why CL^2 / pi AR e is not useable in the real world (until after someone charts e the first time or finds CDi or ai.)


To make this easier to understand let's use a real airplane, and real specs. I am going to show you how to do this with the absolute minimal of data. But first, a simple chart...


For the lazy ones out there, use this:

CDp can be assumed to be = total drag at minimum drag speed.

attachment.php







For the rest of you, you will need:


Aircraft weight in level flight: 100,000 pounds
Aircraft pitch in degrees: 3.28 degrees
Zero Lift alpha to body, aZL_body: -2.05
250KIAS speed in Mach at sea level: 0.3779
wing span b = 93.333
wing area S = 1000.7
Aspect ratio AR = b^2/S = 8.705

These numbers are based on a Douglas DC9-30.



Finding e:



Step 1

Find pressure Q for your speed.

1481.4 * Mach^2 = 1481.4 * 0.3779^2 = 211.55 Q



Step 2

Find CL

weight / (Q * S) = 100,000 / (211.55 * 1000.7) = 0.47237 CL measured from weight



Step 3

Find Cla

2pi * { AR / [2 + sqrt(4 + AR^2)] } = 6.28318531 * { 8.705 / [2 + sqrt( 4 + 8.705^2)] } = 5.0033 Cla



Step 4

Find CLa

Cla * [ AR / (AR + 2) ] = 5.0033 * [8.705 / (8.705 + 2)] = 4.0685 CLa


CLa / Cla = very close to e. There are a few things that will cause small errors.



Step 5

Find Cl and CL for Cla method

(Aircraft pitch in degrees - aZL_body) * Cla = (3.28 - -2.05) * 5.0033 = 26.667589 Cl
(Aircraft pitch in degrees - aZL_body) * CLa = (3.28 - -2.05) * 4.0685 = 21.685105 CL

(if those Cl and CL look weird, don't worry...they are in radians...they relate directly to pi*AR, which for this airplane is 27.3476.)



-OR-



Find alphas for alpha_induced method (much more accurate)


(CL measured from weight / Cla) * 57.2957 = (0.47237 / 5.0033) * 57.2957 = 5.4094 degrees alpha2D. (We can compare this to our pitch - zero lift value of 5.33 and see our zero lift alpha has changed a bit.)

(CL measured from weight / CLa) * 57.2957 = (0.47237 / 4.0685) * 57.2957 = 6.6523 degrees alpha3D. (We can compare this to our pitch - zero lift value of 5.33 and see the effect of alpha_induced.)



Step 6


Find e using Cla method...

CL / Cl = 21.685105 / 26.667589 = 0.81316 e

This method is much more prone to errors. See step 7 for more accuracy.


-OR-


Find ai_radians for ai method...

[alpha3D - alpha2D] / 57.2957 = (6.6523 - 5.4094) / 57.2957 = 0.021693 ai_radians



Step 7

Final calculations:



Method #1

Here's a good way to tell how far off you are.

Compare:

CL / Cl against CL / (pi*AR)

CL / Cl = 21.685105 / 26.667589 = 0.81316 e
CL / (pi*AR) = 21.685105 / (pi * 8.705) = 0.79294 e


0.81316 e against 0.79295 e. There is no way that I know of to confirm if the error is valid or not. It could be depending on the environment.



Method #2

e = CL / (pi AR * ai_radians) = 0.47237 / (pi * 8.7049 * 0.021693 ai_radians) = 0.79625 e


This is the most accurate one.

0.81316 e
0.79294 e
0.79625 e


The others will vary in error from 100% to +/- 5% drag error.


Pretty easy. If you have questions or need clarifications, feel free to ask.


Note: In applying this in FS, CDi will be low at high altitude and high mach due to the CDi bug. I would suggest repeating these steps using different scenarios to find the e for the phase of flight you use most often. For airliners and biz jets, it would be cruise altitude at cruise mach. For fighters, find their combat envelope and apply the accuracy there. Most everything else is low and slow and won't vary much.




================================


For those who are interested in the process and extended formulas, the lift force produced by the wing is found by:

F = density * (pi*b^2/4) * Velocity * (Velocity * sin(downwash angle))

Of course, starting from here we already have the downwash angle so Alpha induced = downwash angle / 2.


So in the real world we only need b=wingspan, an airspeed indicator, and a sensor (or string) to measure the wash angle. From these three things we easily find ai; and all the aerodynamic coefficients of the wing.




Here's a quick diagram for reference.

attachment.php
 

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I’m afraid your argument is flawed. You calculate Alpha induced /ai as (CL/pi) * AR in degrees. You then use it to calculate CDi as CL * ai.

Combining these two gives

CDi = CL * (CL/pi) * AR

This implies that CDi increases with aspect ratio at constant CL. This is not the case

This flaw appears in your numerical example:

Alpha induced /ai = (0.5 /3.14159.) * 10 = 1.59155 deg or 0.027778 rad.

CDi = CL * Alpha induced /ai = 0.5 * 0.027778 = 0.013889

The equation that you should have used is

Alpha induced /ai = Cl /(pi * AR) in radians

Using this results in the standard equation

CDi = CL^2 / (pi * AR)

It simply isn’t possible to calculate Oswald Efficiency from aspect ratio and an arbitrary lift coefficient only . They don’t provide sufficient information,
 
mgh,

Where would we be without your humorous comments.


mgh said:
I’m afraid your argument is flawed.

it's not an argument, it's a method.


mgh said:
You calculate CDi as CL * ai.

The estimated method is CDi = CL * ai. The full method is CDi = CL * sin(ai). Either is correct depending on the level of accuracy required.


mgh said:
This implies that CDi increases with aspect ratio at constant CL.

It implies nothing. You are presuming that at constant CL, only AR can change CDi . If at constant CL, AR increases and CDi increases, then e has decreased. This is common in the real world. There are many factors that affect espan including wing geometry, flex, wash angles, and, installations. All these factors affect e. e changes dynamically on real airplanes.

As can be seen in the graphic below, e is decreasing with increased AR for similar reasons. This is contrary to what you're taught in textbooks where larger AR reduces tip spillage. Doesn't really work that way on real airplanes... The reductions in spillage is usually a net loss when compared against the performance of the thinner airfoil at the target design conditions. This is all assuming a 'typical' design philosophy.


attachment.php


Remember, the graphic and the contradictory textbook lessons are both generalizations.


mgh said:
The equation that you should have used is Alpha induced /ai = Cl /(pi * AR) in radians

CL / piAR only applies to a perfect wing and is completely useless on a real airplane. The spitfire, the best wing ever made, was 99% perfect. (note: Cl / (pi * AR) is completely different from CL / (pi * AR)....)

Had you actually read the previous post which I addressed directly to you, you might not have felt the need to try to 'educate' me on alphainduced; something that you didn't even know existed until I mentioned it to you. A simple, "hey jx_, did you intend to type that? It doesn't look right..." would suffice. I would be more than happy to explain, elaborate, or correct; but you are the last person on the planet who should be telling me what equation or method I should be using...especially considering that you PM me asking for in-flight data on a real airplanes because you have never seen any before, and your statements in the forums are consistently wrong or at best incomplete.

I also forget sometimes that people in this forum may not know there is a difference between CL, Cl, and Cla, or I just plain forget to mention it.... I'll be sure to be clear next time.


mgh said:
Using this results in the standard equation CDi = CL^2 / (pi * AR)

Again, completely inaccurate in the real world. CDi = CL^2 / (pi * AR * e).


Using CDi = CL * sin(ai) is best because actual ai includes e. If you use ai, where ai = CL / piAR, you must correct CDi as:

CDi = CL * sin(alpha2D) * e^-1

The CDi equation is sometimes written as CDi = (CL^2 / e) / (pi * AR) or CDi = CL^2 / (pi * AR) * e^-1.


mgh said:
the standard equation CDi = CL^2 / (pi * AR)

It's only standard in books. Standard in use will be CL^2/(piARe) or something like CD = CDp + [(CL^2/piAR) * (1/e)]; or CD = CDp + CDiinviscid + K CDp CL^2 = CDp + CL^2 / ( p AR einviscid ) + K CDp CL^2; depending on the company regs, engineer's preference, and design methods in use. It can get complex. Thank God for computers.


mgh said:
It simply isn’t possible to calculate Oswald Efficiency from aspect ratio
mgh said:
They don’t provide sufficient information,

Tell that to someone who hasn't done it many times in the real world on real airplanes.

All that is needed to get the actual e value is ai -or- Cla and alpha - alphaZL.


e = CL / (pi AR * ai_radians), because ai = CL / (pi AR e)
e = (CL / ai_radians) / (pi AR), because ai = CL / (pi AR e)

e = CL^2 / (pi AR * CDi), because CDi = CL^2 / (pi AR e)
e = (CL^2 / CDi) / (pi AR), because CDi = CL^2 / (pi AR e)

This is only way to find the exact value of e. Everything else is estimated.


A few equations for e that will render close estimates of e without "sufficient information":

where s = { 1 - [1.556 * (diameter_fuselage / wing span)^2] } * 0.99
or s = 1 - [0.0407 * (d_f / b)] - [1.792 * (d_f / b^2)]

where k = 0.38 + ( 57 * 10^-6 * quarter_chord_sweep_angle_in_degrees^2 ) * CD0 <<< note: 1/4 chord sweep angle < leading edge angle. It is the angle of the quarter chord line from tip to root.


e = [ (1 / s) + (pi AR k) ]^-1

e = [ 1 + [(1 / piAR) / (CD / CL^2)] ]^-1



To find changes with mach we simply modify e as e = e ( CL*Mach )

All of those methods will render slightly different results, but are all considered accurate depending on who you ask and how it's applied. The real world isn't so clear cut as you assume. It's not like computer code.

Sometimes I think you forget the purpose of this forum is to make things easier on the people who have no experience, to get accurate results in the sim. With that in mind, I will edit the post with an even easier method that even a baby could do.


mgh said:
and an arbitrary lift coefficient

FYI: it's called the design lift coefficient or design point CL. It can be whatever you like. It's usually 0.50CL at the min drag speed. 0.50CL tends to correspond to that while at ISA, sea level, and low-mach. All aircraft performance charts (engineering, not pilot) will be reflective of this scenario and should be read as such. For example, the CL table 404 would normally be mapped to Mach 0.30 for an airliner who's sea level clean stall speed is Mach 0.25-ish. Now, you're thinking, that makes no sense.... to map it they fly different speeds. Yes, when mapping you fly different speeds... and unless you're very lucky, you're usually unable to do it at sea level under ISA. But the results of all data are normalized down to this baseline speed and to sea level ISA. By getting it as close to stall speed as possible, you get it close to static, where all coefficients are normalized from static. So CLqS only works because CL vs AoA is mapped to static. As altitude (and thus mach) increases, wing loading increases CL at the same q.... Mach effects destroy your results. This is why MSFS added the CL vs Mach table, but they screwed it up. It should have been Weight increase versus Mach and pitch decrease versus Mach.
 
I will edit the post...

You did more than edit it - you effectively re-wrote it and replaced the flawed equations with others (created 23 Jan 2013, 04:07 - last edited 04 Feb 2013 08:51)
In the interests of intellecual honesty the original equations were

Alpha induced = (CL/pi) * AR (in degrees!)

CDi = CL * Alpha induced so that

CDi = (CL^2/pi) * AR * 0.017453 (degrees to radians

The last equation shows CDi increasing with aspect ratio. That is totally wrong, and contrary to both theory and real world experience.
 
jx_ said:
I will edit the post with an even easier method that even a baby could do.

Perhaps your reading comprehension is low as well? That clearly states I will be replacing it with an easier method that has the fewest steps possible, and requires the least amount of information (partially inspired by your incorrect assertion that it's not possible to find e from such limited information.)



mgh said:
The last equation shows CDi increasing with aspect ratio.

"If at constant CL, AR increases and CDi increases, then e has decreased." Designing airplanes is like anything else, a game of compromise. You can't make a plane go fast and go slow; fly high and fly low; without paying for it.



mgh said:
That is totally wrong, and contrary to both theory and real world experience.

Who's real world experience??? Yours??? Humorous.




One more time in case you missed it the 1st time...

jx_ said:
Had you actually read the previous post which I addressed directly to you, you might not have felt the need to try to 'educate' me on alphainduced; something that you didn't even know existed until I mentioned it to you. A simple, "hey jx_, did you intend to type that? It doesn't look right..." would suffice. I would be more than happy to explain, elaborate, or correct; but you are the last person on the planet who should be telling me what equation or method I should be using



If there is anyone else with anything useful or productive to say, or who has a question feel free to ask.
 
I note you've re-edited the original post yet again - Last edited by jx_; 04 Feb 2013 at 15:00. What errors have you removed this time?

That clearly states I will be replacing it with an easier method that has the fewest steps possible...quote]

You replaced the original erroneous method with another one.

If at constant CL, AR increases and CDi increases, then e has decreased.

This thread is about calculating Cdi for a given aircraft. With very rare exceptions, aircraft have constant aspect ratios. You reference the Douglas DC9-30. How does it aspect ratio change when it's in the cruise with flaps retracted? Your original equations were wrong. It that the reason you edited them out?

Who's real world experience??? Yours??? Humorous.

Are you still suggesting that CDi increases with increasing aspect ratio?
 
Not according to McDonnell Douglas and Boeing. Your opinion is worthless here.


If there is anyone else with anything useful or productive to say, or who has a valid question feel free to ask.
 
I've read the whole topic... and to be honest... I think it's 'much ado about nothing'.

The methods offered do indeed allow one to calculate a theoretical 'e' value given certain parameters. Are errors in the formulae? There were, but they've been corrected. Is it something worth being so antagonistic over? No, I really don't think so.

The methods provided, and the discussions that followed them have little in common and even less value when combined.
 
I've read the whole topic... and to be honest... I think it's 'much ado about nothing'.

The methods offered do indeed allow one to calculate a theoretical 'e' value given certain parameters. Are errors in the formulae? There were, but they've been corrected. Is it something worth being so antagonistic over? No, I really don't think so.

The methods provided, and the discussions that followed them have little in common and even less value when combined.

I responded to the initial post because the (now removed) method was flawed The first replacement method is also flawed.

The equations in Steps 3 and 4 reduce to a much simpler equation

Cla = 2pi * { AR / [2 + sqrt(4 + AR^2)] } <– Step 3
CLa = Cla * [ AR / (AR + 2) ] <-Step 4

CLa/Cla = Cla * [ AR / (AR + 2) ] / Cla = [ AR / (AR + 2) ]

e = CLa/Cla =AR / (AR + 2)

AR / (AR + 2) is the ratio between the 3-D lift curve slope and the 2-D lift curve slope (2 pi) based on lifting-line and thin wing-theory. That is not the Oswald efficiency factor.

To illustrate the point, I’ve superimposed that expression for e in red on the graph in Post #1 which is from Fundamentals of Flight by R S Shevell. The curves in the graph are empirical and based on analysis of flight test data at Douglas aircraft.

attachment.php


It's a waste of time to attempt to calculate Oswald based only on aspect ratio. It can't be done. A rectangular wing can have the same aspect ratio as a delta wing but their Oswald factors aren't the same.
 

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Warp D said:
Is it something worth being so antagonistic over? No, I really don't think so.


Warp,

Thanks for the support.... but I am beginning to think he has some kind of man crush on me.... or he has nothing better to do. The mods told me to be nice or ignore him so I will, but perhaps he doesn't realize that I don't come here to debate with him about things he obviously doesn't understand.


mgh said:
To illustrate the point, I’ve superimposed that expression for e in red on the graph in Post #1

This shows how little you comprehend the topic. The chart shows, very simply, the ratio between ai @ e=x and ai @ e=1 or (CL / piARe) / (CL / piAR).

Why do you think the lines are tied to CDp? For fun? Higher ai increases wing frontal area.



mgh said:
which is from Fundamentals of Flight by R S Shevell. The curves in the graph are empirical and based on analysis of flight test data at Douglas aircraft.

Actually no, the graph is from my SDRP.... a graph that was drawn long before he wrote his book, and based on flight test data I have seen personally....... have you?



mgh said:
AR / (AR + 2) is the ratio between the 3-D lift curve slope and the 2-D lift curve slope (2 pi) based on lifting-line and thin wing-theory. That is not the Oswald efficiency factor.

Smh. Theoretical airfoils are always e = 1. The above shows e for a real airfoil as: ( CL / piAR ) * ( 1 / e ) = CL / piARe

e is the ratio of actual ai to ai at e=1.



mgh said:
It's a waste of time to attempt to calculate Oswald based only on aspect ratio. It can't be done.

Of course the guy with the least experience in the matter knows what can and can't be done.... but nowhere have I ever attempted to claim to use AR alone.


"
jx_ said:
in order to find Oswald e we need to find Alpha induced or CDi first; or 2D Cl_alpha.
"



I will add to that statement:

"in order to find Oswald e we need to find Alpha induced or CDi first; or 2D Cl_alpha." + "This is not the only way, or even the standard way to find e in the real world, but it is the only simple way to find e for any aircraft where you have no test or design data readily available."

and... as stated clearly in the post:

jx_ said:
in the real world we only need wingspan, an airspeed indicator, and a sensor (or string) to measure the wash angle. From these three things we easily find ai; and all the aerodynamic coefficients of the wing.


These posts are for flight sim designers who don't have access to real data.... you know... the kind who PM me privately to ask me for some because they admit they have never seen any real data to support all the theories they have absorbed from the internet... sound familiar? Normally those kinds of people thank me and ask tons of questions. You're the first person I've seen who would have the gall to say "can you please send me some real world data so I can see what it looks like?" followed by, "I know more about this than you"...


Your statements and behavior really make me want to call you an idiot, but I'm not going to. Not only did I promise the mods I wouldn't, but I am starting to think that maybe you just have self esteem issues, and me calling you an idiot would make it worse, let alone be unproductive. I can tell you're a smart guy when it comes to math and you're probably a great programmer. So how about you start applying that to an actual design? Build a completed FS airfile that you think is 100% accurate (with sim limitations noted), and then send it to me for analysis and we can go from there. Otherwise, you are talking loud and wasting my time in the process. If this were a post for experienced engineers, then we would be talking span coefficients, wash angles, and circulation.... but it's not. It's for a game. Stop pretending it's real.

In the meantime, just use the picture chart and you'll be fine.
 
Gaah! Gerry, do you really just HAVE to have the last word? Are you truly that insecure? :rolleyes:
 
Bill - returning to substance of this thread, do you think given the independent evidence in post #11 that the expression AR / (AR + 2) gives the induced drag Oswald efficiency factor, or even a reasonable aoproximation to it?
 
goodness...


1) You are using theoretical values in place of actual values

2) These point are made clearly...

jx_ said:
(CL measured from weight / Cla) * 57.2957 = (0.47237 / 5.0033) * 57.2957 = 5.4094 degrees alpha2D. (We can compare this to our pitch - zero lift value of 5.33 and see our zero lift alpha has changed a bit.)

(CL measured from weight / CLa) * 57.2957 = (0.47237 / 4.0685) * 57.2957 = 6.6523 degrees alpha3D. (We can compare this to our pitch - zero lift value of 5.33 and see the effect of alpha_induced.)

3) If you want to plot a red line it would be CLa / CL_measured = e ; and you can't do that without a real plane to measure...

4) Your red line is also in the wrong dimensions and neglects the effect of sweep angle and CDp, which are what the charted data reflects. You also neglect the fact that a rectangular wing, which will usually have an e between 0.50 and 0.70, is not represented in that chart. Do you think a real aircraft with an AR of 2 will have an e of 0.95 or 0.55???!! If wings become more efficient with higher AR, then why does this chart, which we all agree was produce by a reliable expert, appear to be backwards? Use your brain and stop trying to argue all the time.

5) Bill, Ed, and my don't care what you think because you are arrogant, disrespectful, and usually wrong. Therefore I will repeat once again:

jx_ said:
A simple, "hey jx_, did you intend to type that? It doesn't look right..." would suffice. I would be more than happy to explain, elaborate, or correct; but you are the last person on the planet who should be telling me what equation or method I should be using...

That kind of response would elicit an investigation. Otherwise I have no reason to take your comments seriously.

6) I already know that you are going to try to comb this post and pick and choose what will fit whatever argument you are going to try to make, so I will save you some time. If it's not a legit question I will simply ignore it.
 
Bill, Ed, and my don't care what you think because you are arrogant, disrespectful, and usually wrong
My feeling is that most readers of this forum are absolutely exasperated by these ceaseless personal attacks. Personally, I am. We are here to share, help and communicate the best we can, in a respectful and mature way according to our knowledge and experience. Whatever it may be, it's enough on my side and FSDeveloper.com is now erased from my favorites. Hope mods will understand that it is not the way it should go. Enjoy what there is still to enjoy
 
You seem to have forgotten that the red line results from your method - so its your red line

CLa / Cla = very close to e.

If wings become more efficient with higher AR, then why does this chart, which we all agree was produce by a reliable expert, appear to be backwards?

Because it isn’t . Remember

I'm sure many people wonder how Oswald e is found. I'm also sure many people use the CDi formula CL^2 / pi*AR*e to find CDi.

Take a constant CL of 0.5 (giving a constant lift at a given speed and height) and a Cdo of 0.01
At AR = 6 the efficiency factor 0.905 from the chart is so

CDi =0.5^2/(3.14159 * 0. 905* 6) = 0.01466

At AR = 12 the efficiency factor = 0.85 so

CDi =0.5^2/(3.14159 * 0. 85* 6) = 0.0078

The drag coefficient and drag force have almost halved by doubling the AR at constant lift coefficient and lift force..
 
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