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Fs2004 scenery design tools

bpahe

bpahe

Resource contributor
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335
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sweden
Hi!

Haven´t tried SceneGenX yet, but I´m about to create some aprons & taxiways. This time I thought of doing this with AFCAD, but perhaps SceneGenX is a better choice? I´ve come to love SceneryBuilder, but it doesn´t cover those finer details, so could someone give me a hint on possible edges that SceneGenX might have over AFCAD regarding this?

/hans
 
Hi Hans.

SceneGenX has a lot of promise, but I won't use it. It has a severe problem with background map registration and cannot accurately tranfer the FS positon to object placement.

I have contacted Tom Hiscox about this problem, but he does not recognize the problem exits... so it will not get fixed.

The root of his problem is he does not understand the difference between angular measurement ( lat-long placement ) and placement measured in distance.

For example, his screens use distance measurement, but his grids of lat-long and of LOD8 are perpendicular... this is not possible with measured distance, but only with angular distance... Lat-long and LOD8 should curve with distance measurement display.

You can try to place an object with the sim's lat-long, but the code gets changed before compilation, and the object is not where you tried to place it.

For an area as small as an airport, the difference is small ( and acceptable ), but for an area as large as an LOD8 Cell, the object placement is terrible.

At this point, I'd encourage users to try SBuilder for object placement, even though it's in the beta SCASM code... because at least the placement is right, and a map exported from LWMViewer can be accurately displayed.

For airport code, AfCad2 is hard to beat. You may want to decompile it's output, and examine/tweak it with XML... a combination that will work well.

Until Tom addresses his problem with map-sim placement, and gets away from this measurement-based display, SceneGenX will be usable only for very small areas in which the placement distortion will minimized.

The best solution would be to have Jim Keir add object placement, airport creation, and XML import/export to LWMViewer. Then we'd have it done right. :)


Dick
 
Agreed with Dick, AFCAD is better and easier to use. It only does not allow you to place objects. Maybe I should try to finish my ObPlacer XML, so you can use that with AFCAD (would be a nice combination).
 
Hi and thanks!

I installed and tested BGLXML and it is indeed a handy little tool!

Now of course the "cheat" question is - is there a way of adding a custom texture to the runway (or taxiway), or are the different materials hardcoded into the FS engine?

/hans
 
As we're are talking about AFCAD..

Is there a way to place "invisible runways"?? Because I made my own polygon runway with gmax (Allows me to use custom textures) and I still need the "runway data" for the ATC/AFD system. Also, I don't want to bother with a custom lighting (visibility of the bgl_lights are bad anyway) so I want to use the default runway lights.
In SCASM, there was a surface value of "-1" to make the runway invisible...is there something similar to that for FS2004 and bglcomp?

Thanks
Jeff
 
bpahe said:
Now of course the "cheat" question is - is there a way of adding a custom texture to the runway (or taxiway), or are the different materials hardcoded into the FS engine?
Click to expand...

Nope, unfortunately not. You can only choose the material that MS has provided us with. So I hope they are going to extend the amount of options in the future.
 
But that probably gives you no lighting as well? I think it will be hard to only get the lighting and no visual parts, as was possible in SCASM.
 
That is discouraging about SceneGenX as I was wanting to do the same thing and was about to get into it as it does look promising.

regards, Michael
 
MCarr said:
That is discouraging about SceneGenX as I was wanting to do the same thing and was about to get into it as it does look promising.
Click to expand...

Yes, it certainly is. It's probably because it is all based around Airport, which used meters around a RefPoint. But in the new XML code everything is given in lat/lon, so there is obviously a problem there (although I like the lat/lon method a lot more, in meters you always had trouble to match objects that are in different RefPoints etc).

Fortunately you can do almost everything you can do in SceneGenX also in AFCAD, only for object placement you need to find an alternative (I am working on my ObPlacer XML for example :)).
 
Hi Dick.. 'Hard to teach old dogs new tricks, isn't it :)?

Re:>"The best solution would be to have Jim Keir add object placement, airport creation, and XML import/export to LWMViewer. Then we'd have it done right."

'This would indeed be a great way to go. There are so many new utilities in development out there that there's no way I can begin to keep-up with what's best.

I've been 'clinging' to SGX's development (because it's an offspring of Airport and I'm more familiar with it's 'shell') but I think most of us see the 'handwriting on the wall' for the need to go '3 dimensional' in all aspects of MSFS design.

I've tried LWMViewer (a little bit) and yearn to be able to cut and paste, exchange or replace landclass areas within it and save it to FS's active scenery. 'Looks to me like it's a real gem just waiting for abilities like that to be included.

For it to also be able to build Airport 'Facilities' (rwys, taxiways, aprons, taxisigns, Navigation interface with "enroute and local" AI planes, add library and user made scenery objects, etc, etc) would indeed be a scenery 'heaven'.

Thanks for all your contributions -- you too, Arno.

J.R.
 
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Fully agreed, what I would find the ultimate tools is a tool that can make both the mesh elements and the airports. So a bit of a combination of AFCAD, Ground2k and LWMViewer. You should be able to see the default scenery like in LWMViewer. But if something like that will ever be there is the question of course :D.
 
Hi all.

We're almost to the point of having a reliable set of tools.

AFCAD2 for airport structuring.
Ground2K for VTP and LWM drawing.
LWMViewer to export bitmaps of out scenery.
Sbuilder can use those bitmaps for object placement.

Sbuilder has the potential for replacing all of the above, if Luis has the time and desire to go the distance... it's drawback? SCASM. It's tied to SCASM, and that implementation depends on it's development, whereas BGLC and XML are already fully developed.

That's why I would hope that we'd have another program that will allow importation of LWMViewer bitmaps ( already in geographic "lat-long" projection ), and placement of objects on that map, using XML code for placement.

In the meantime, Arno's object placer should fill the void, until a "map-based" utility using large geographic projections is developed.

I suggested LWMViewer, as it already allows the use of these "maps", with absolutely proper placement, as they are actually the terrain bgls themselves! All's it needs is the ability to create the XML placement code, and perhaps the ability to import XML code.

I do wish Tom Hiscox well, but the current approach of SceneGenX seems destined to be able to use very small areas only, as the placement distortion grows with larger distances covered. I think Tom would need to completely revamp his program to a lat-long basis, and forget distance placement, but I don't believe he's willing to go there.

Dick
 
Hi all!

Perhaps this is a bit off-topic, but I still want to say that I have seen the light, or at least what I think the light should look as...

The answer is Trainz by Auran, followed by Trainz 2004. The scenery creator/editor in this sim is what I want for FS, but it is not going to happen unless MS decides that we should get an official editor. I was introduced to Trainz by a friend that about to start working with visualization for his company (a CAD based architect bureau). He first looked at FS as a way to display simple models of real-world areas, but lacked a way of showing objects in a simple way. He then looked at Trainz and was as astounded as I got, also by such a simple feature as "walk-around" mode. In this, you can walk as a human being in the scenery that you create.

The editor is Trainz have all the features that you can ask for - automatic import of both models & textures from Gmax, click-n-drag modification of the mesh, "painting" ground textures etc. If you get a chance at looking into Trainz, then do so. Then you will know what I would like for FS! :)

/hans
 
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Yes, something like tat would be nice, but only if it includes all features. I mean, the current GMax gamepack is nice, but for special tweaks we still need to have the ASM files and edit them. When the editor is that integrated into the game this would become very hard, so in those cases the editor would also need to have the advanced features and not only the basic ones (something like CAT should be possible by default in that case :D).

Because I doubt something like that will happen, I prefer to keep it like it is now. When we have the ability to create our own tools and have the intermediate files as well to look at, it gives us more flexibility.
 
I renamed and moved the thread, because the subject of discussion did not really match the title anymore. But it is still an interesting discussion, so carry on :D.
 
SceneGenX Status

Rhumbaflappy's comments in the thread refer to an older version of SceneGenX. His remarks about my understanding of lat/lon versus xy coordinates is certainly off the mark - AFW and SGX could never have gotten this far without having it. He developed his opinion from an event where he reported a problem which I could not reproduce, and wrongly concluded that I didn't understand the issue.

The older Airport program was based only on x,y coordinates from a center point. This works fine for small distances, say under 2000m. The conversion from lat/lon to x,y back and forth introduces no measureable error. However, when the distances are much greater, there will be an error if not handled correctly.

Old builds of SceneGenX were based on AFW, and there would be an error when large distances were involved. As the new XML based scenery definition is more fully implemented, more and more of SGX is moving to lat/lon based coordinates. This is not complete and work continues. However, my testing has shown that items placed by lat/lon in SGX show up in FS9 at the correct lat/lon in the scenery.

SceneGenX is a user-driven freeware program where testing and development is done by the users who tell me what doesn't work and what features should be added. Come over to the www.airportforwindows.com and so to the support forum anytime with suggestions and problems. And please don't give up if it takes me a build or two to get to the problem.

Tom
 
Thanks for the clarification Tom and keep up the good work :).
 
Hi all.

I cannot let it go this way.

You cannot coordinate any bitmap covering a large area accurately in SGX. It doesn't work.

I challenge anyone to use a large bitmap ( about 20 km x 20km would work ), of any projection, to display positioning accurate to within 5 meters in SGX, at the edges and corner locations.

It can't be done... as the further from the center of the bitmap you go, the larger the distortion of the map. I have tried geographic projection, orthographic projection, UTM... nothing works for a large area. I'm assuming orthographic should work, as it's a meter-distance based system of projection ( unlike SBuilder and Ground2K4 that use geographic projection ).

What can be done is placing many smaller background bitmaps at different lat-long positions, and the effects of the problem can then be minimised... but they still will not be gone. It's just that the distances from the extents of the many small bitmaps to their center refpoints will be smaller... so the placement distortion will be smaller.

Also, there is a problem with slewing in the sim and placing an object via FSUIPC in SGX... SGX will not always place objects where the sim says the plane is centered. That is also very frustrating. This is not a characteristic of the slewing/FSUIPC use in Ground2K4 or SBuilder... terrain or objects are located where the sim says they are.

The great difference between Sbuilder ( or Ground2K4 ), and SGX, is that SBuilder and Ground2K4 use geographic projection, and require no mathematical translation to place objects in a metric-distance based format... so I assume that's where the problem lies. If SGX were to adopt the geographic projection, the problem would most likely disappear.

==============

In SGX, you can place an object at a particular lat-long, and it will display correctly, as the XML code simply uses that info.

But placing a house near a road intersection, using a large background map, such as a bitmap from LWMViewer, will only lead to frustration. The further from the center refpoint, the worse the displacement. Trying to adjust the center of the map, or it's scale will only throw off other placements.

Unless there is a form of projection I haven't tried, SGX will never be able to accurately place objects to a bitmap covering a large area... something's wrong with the math, or I'm using an incorrect projection for the large bitmap.


EDIT:

http://webpages.charter.net/ludowr/269_329.zip

This link is a zipped folder that contains a geographic projection bitmap from LWMViewer of cell 269,329

An orthographic projection is made from this bitmap using GlobalMapper. This bitmap is 10 meters per pixel exact.

It is 46990 meters wide by 43120 meters tall, and should be easily used in SceneGenX for a background bitmap... scaled as 10 pixels per 100 meters, and centered at S25* 51.470625' , W53* 40.3125'

... and it cannot reliably be used to place scenery objects, behaving as I described above.


Dick
 
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Dick, have you tried to use a geographic bitmap just like in Ground2k or SBuilder? When I move my mouse pointer over the grid in SceneGenX the horizonal and verticle lines all seem to be at the same longitude or lattitude.

I agree with you that the x and y values are wrong in that case (they make no sense), but maybe the coordinates are still taken correct?
 
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