How do I align scenery objects in the editor correctly

[jgarnold]

I have a (water) airport with many docks. I elected to create the dock with a number of shorter dock otherwise my Blender model becomes unwieldy (the actual dock measures about 120 meters long).
Because of this I need to align a few scenery objects which I am finding is virtually impossible as in the editor I can drag each object on the x and y co-ordinates so that they align perfectly BUT after the build and copy to the community folder and reload they are not aligned and when I open my project again and build they still are not aligned correctly yet when I Load In Editor' they are. The misalignment is on BOTH the X and Y axis.
What is the method I can use.
Refer images below - the first before Load in Editor and the second after Load in Editor'

 

[rhumbaflappy]

It could be the Devmode is subject to rounding errors. But it also has heading errors that are not actually due to rounding... they are just slightly off. Try noting the placement lat-long-heading in the gizmo and then compile to see if the resulting compilation is the same in the XML.

 

[jgarnold]

Thanks Dick.

I guess the Gizmo should be used more precise placement HOWEVER I manually changed the ALT, PITCH, Bank and HEADING to be the same and still have the problem.

I found the objects/models in the airport.xml and basically the values for lat, long and alt are the same as in the Gizmo EXCEPT they are MORE than 6 decimal places long eg
Gizmo lat 49.482492 xml 49.48249240607096 Do I assume correctly that 0.00000040607096 can make a difference? If 1 degree of longitude measure 111.321 km (111321 meters) then .00000040607 degrees would be about 4.5mm in my estimation which could the difference I see between the BUILD and the Load in Editor. Have I calculated correctly and assumed correctly?

What is the best outcome? Edit the xml file and change the lar, long and alt to be the same as in the Gizmo?

 

[vbazillio]

Couldn’t the vector placement feature be helpful is this case ?

 

[=rk=]

Couldn’t the vector placement feature be helpful is this case ?

Yes I was thinking that. The problem is that vector placement requires a single duplicated mesh and these dock models are different. Still, it could be valuable in this way. If you take a single object and multiply it against itself, it's true symmetry is revealed. What I have seen is that if I extend an object along a single axis, and bring the spacing close so it is s continuous row of the object, it occasionally has stair steps - it's edges are not perfectly parallel to any axis, therefore it will not sit squarely in line with itself. Adjusting the object rotation reveals the true "micrometric" orientation of it and you can use this rotational offset to line dissimilar objects more accurately. When I see the stair stepping of the dock corners, I think just leave it, the same thing happens in real life and have you ever tried to pull docks square that have drifted and been slammed by drunk boaters into non alignment? But, if you wanted to change it, you could probably line each dock model out the the vector tool, record it's rotational offset and if there is any to work with, try to apply that to your placement coordinates.

 

[jgarnold]

Thanks for your replies. I have never heard of vector placement.
Not sure if this has any significance or I I understood Rick's reply but most if not all my dock objects/model have been created as variations of my first dock which has the dimensions of 9 meters x 2 meters and I have NO problem aligning them (they are located in a different area of my water airport) and they don't 'jump' in position between 'load in editor' and built. And they are all 'built' on the Y axis (in Blender), an example below -

Yes I agree that floating docks would rarely have no space in between each other and so maybe that's the 'answer'. It's just strange that I have no problem aligning other very similar docks at other locations at my water airport. Maybe just lucky?
Or (in Blender) join all the different dock models into one model and add and place (a model 120 meters long but that's not the longest model I created viz the offshore gravel loading conveyor at Sechelt which is over 400 meters long) but relatively simple.

 

[=rk=]

Yes, you want to think of it like needles in a compass. They want to point a certain direction and it's probably like Dick says but simply the fact there are only so many decimal places. So when you pull them out in a straight line on the Y axis that is a bunch of "zeros," with numbers ticking off on the X axis like the numbers on a tape measure. Now if you turn that line of docks 23.4 degrees north, then the Y axis numbers are all different, infinitely so but there are only so many decimal places. When they round up, you get stair steps.

Ok so you would think six decimal places is enough, that is what we get for values when we change things in the Editor. I always do my edits directly to the files I'm working on, because I don't trust the Aircraft Editor, it's something to consider with scenery and this way you can be sure to record the transforms of all six decimal places. The idea with vector placement is to find that exact six digit sequence each, or all of the docks have. When you line them up in a line, it's like putting them in a mirror hall and any imperfection jumps out. So you turn them until they align perfectly and then you see, "ah ha, it isn't exactly 90 degrees off the x axis like Blender says it is, it 90. 000142 degrees," or something like that. Then when you place it, you add that factor to each set of coordinates and they all line up, supposedly of course and the thing is, you can just edit the airport.xml placements. Just use a text editor, find the models and edit them, refresh the scenery and you can see your changes. You can save your previous airport.xml in case things don't work, archive different version, the possibilities are nearly infinite. I mean, if you want be precise, you got to climb under the hood, so to speak.

 

[jgarnold]

Thanks Rick. I will try that (editing airport.xml after making a backup first). Six decimal places appears to be within 4mm which in most cases I guess is close enough.

 

[jgarnold]

Do I assume correctly that after changing the (lat long alt) values in the airport.xml that I then open the airport in devmode and do nothing but do a build? I tried that and the values in the airport.xml were changed. I thought they would only be written to when doing an 'open in editor'?

 

[jgarnold]

I decided to "bite the bullet" and combine 4 (blender) models so that problems with Devmode) in aligning won't exist. That way too I would not have to remember to edit the .xml in the future should I make modifications.
Took me all of 5 minutes.
I might even combines all the 11 (docks) models into one. I just hope with such a long model (100+ meters) I don't run into what appeared to be curvature of the earth with another long dock in another water airport where I had to manually enter the pitch etc to prevent one end of the docks being almost almost 'swamped' (covered with water) while the other end was placed correctly (altitude) on the surface of the water.

 

[=rk=]

Do I assume correctly that after changing the (lat long alt) values in the airport.xml that I then open the airport in devmode and do nothing but do a build? I tried that and the values in the airport.xml were changed. I thought they would only be written to when doing an 'open in editor'?

It is difficult to understand the question. You edit the airport.xml with notepad++, or some text app. After you have made your edits, the airport.xml is exactly like it has always been, the edits you make in a text editor are exactly the same edits the Scenery Editor makes, you are both the same typewriters side by side so I am having trouble understanding

I tried that and the values in the airport.xml were changed.

Changed to what? Changed to what you wanted them to be or changed from what you wanted them to be? The way you type it it looks like you had an unexpected result.

I thought they would only be written to when doing an 'open in editor'?

They are "written to" when you write to. When you edit and save the xml, that is it, those are the values written to. The old ones are history, if there is a discrepancy between the Editor and you edits, in that you open the xml you just edited in the Editor and it is different from what you just edited, it means you are editing the wrong numbers.

I decided to "bite the bullet" and combine 4 (blender) models so that problems with Devmode) in aligning won't exist. That way too I would not have to remember to edit the .xml in the future should I make modifications.
Took me all of 5 minutes.
I might even combines all the 11 (docks) models into one. I just hope with such a long model (100+ meters) I don't run into what appeared to be curvature of the earth with another long dock in another water airport where I had to manually enter the pitch etc to prevent one end of the docks being almost almost 'swamped' (covered with water) while the other end was placed correctly (altitude) on the surface of the water.

Earth curvature over 100 meters amounts to 8 millimeters.

 

[jgarnold]

Rick
Sorry for not explaining myself properly. I have confused you between using notepad++ and using devmode.

What I did was (using notepad++) -
open the airport.xml,
change the latitude and longitude values for the model to what the Gizmo displayed (ie to 6 decimal places only),
SAVEd the xml file.
Open the project in MSFS Devmode, do NOTHING else but BUILD ie I did NOT open in editor or SAVE
Exit MSFS and check the airport.xml and find the that latitude and longitude values have changed (from what I set them to using notepad++).
So what changed them after I manually modified them using notepad++?

Anyway it doesn't really matter to me now as I 'joined' my objects/models of different docks into one (in Blender) and exported to the PackageSources folder, opened the project in devmode and replaced the 'single' dock objects/models with the 'combine' one (of course) and I don't have the misalignment.
It would though be good to understand exactly what write/updates the airport.xml.

Thanks about the curvature of the earth over 100 meters. Maybe my model somehow got 'misaligned' in Blender to cause one end of a 100 meter long dock to be submerged and the other (top of dock) 300mm above the water. Although my 100+meter long dock was NOT straight (and neither is the one in the real world). It is sort of shaped like the letter L ie it has a 'dog leg' near the end eg

That easily could have happened if I used the extrude tool and and allowed the Z axis value to change I guess. That was a while ago and I have learned a lot since I did that model.

 

[=rk=]

So what changed them after I manually modified them using notepad++?

I'm going to guess that you did not delete your _PackageInt or PackagesMetadata folders and when you built the Package, FSPackagetool.exe found the airport.xml to be mysteriously edited, possibly by a virus, so it protected you from the threat. MSFS water is bowed and puckered, I would not trust it to conform to Earth's curvature.

 

[jgarnold]

Thanks Rick. NO I didn't delete those folders.
I am aware of the fact that sometimes certain folders in the project can be deleted and MSFS will recreate them and could never find out which ones they are even after a google search. I will that information in my personal 'help me' document. Can I assume that anytime I appear to have a problem I can delete those folders, or at least rename them as a backup?

Yes I found a couple of years back that MSFS water isn't always correct when I discovered a change in 'altitude' along a 'line' in Green Lake Whistler which could cause a floatplane to actually crash when at speed (take off and landing) and added the necessary 'what ever' (can't remember exactly what and added it into an updated version of my Whistler/Green Lake water airport to flatten the water with the following note

- flattened Green Lake along the change in the water level between Bing maps tiles which would
cause crashes on takeoff – between 50.149288 -122.953252 and 50.148197 -122.934531

I am unaware of such an instance where that L shaped dock at Nanaimo is.

 

[=rk=]

Can I assume that anytime I appear to have a problem I can delete those folders, or at least rename them as a backup?

The folders are to insure integrity of your files. They are unnecessary if you already keep everything as it should be.