Import Button Verses Ground Polygon Wizard Button

[kmanning]

H Arno,

I'm curious as to what import button I should use whenever I'm working with ground polygons, such as when re-mapping mdls and bgl model files. Some airport ground scenerys are created using a bgl file and others are created using an mdl file. In MCX, I believe there are 2 ways to import these type of files and I'm curious as to the correct way to import and export these files. One way is to use the Import button to import an mdl and a bgl model file. The other way is to use the Ground Polygon Wizard. When using the Ground Polygon Wizard, it seems that one can only export the file as a bgl file. One can import an mdl file using the Ground Polygon Wizard but it won't export as an mdl. When using the Import button in MCX, it's possible to import and export as an mdl or a bgl file. So, If I'm importing a bgl file, should I use the Ground Polygon Wizard to import and export a bgl file, or should I use either? If I'm importing an mdl file and want to export as an mdl file, would I use the Import button to import the mdl since it's not possible to export as an mdl using the Ground Polyson Wizard? At what circumstances should I use the Import button and the Ground Polygon Wizard? I just want to better understand the difference between using the Import button and the Ground polygon Wizard. The problem I've found when using the Ground Polygon Wizard is that if one leaves the Group Polygon box checked, it will corrupt the bgl file. Why does it do that? What I have to do is to un-check that box.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

Just a reminder that it may be impossible to use MCX G-Poly Wizard to do what you want to do, as it works with "flat" objects:

Remembering FSX did not retain VTP layer numbering features in its version of FS MDL technology, we must work with MDLs for G-Polys.

IIUC, FSDT implemented sloped and custom shaped 3D MDLs for portions of its airport ground surfaces; these are not flat surfaces; thus:

"FSDT KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl (C-32) is NOT an entirely flat 3D model"

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...or-updated-airport-scenery.441812/post-798816

BTW: my path to the MDL in question is:

C:\Program Files (x86)\ Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf\KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl


Thus, as you seek to update ground markings at FSDT KDFW, you must edit the FSDT MDL, and output a replacement MDL via MCX.

Be certain to document all FSX attributes and create a backup Material Properties template for each FSDT MDL you plan to edit.

Then apply that saved Material Property template to the matching replacement MDL in Material Editor prior to export from MCX as a MDL.

Add FSDT's original MDL to a ZIP file within that folder, delete the loose original FSDT MDL, and replace it with your edited FSDT MDL.

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Hi Ken:

Just a reminder that it may be impossible to use MCX G-Poly Wizard to do what you want to do, as it works with "flat" objects:

Remembering FSX did not retain VTP layer numbering features in its version of FS MDL technology, we must work with MDLs for G-Polys.

IIUC, FSDT implemented sloped and custom shaped 3D MDLs for portions of its airport ground surfaces; these are not flat surfaces; thus:

"FSDT KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl (C-32) is NOT an entirely flat 3D model"

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...or-updated-airport-scenery.441812/post-798816

BTW: my path to the MDL in question is:

C:\Program Files (x86)\ Addon Manager\Simobjects\Misc\FSDT_KDFW\model.KDFW_sett07_sf\KDFW_sett07_sf.mdl


Thus, as you seek to update the ground marking at FSDT KDFW, you must make edits to the MDL, and output a replacement MDL via MCX.

Be certain to document all FSX attributes and create a backup Material Properties template for each MDL you plan to edit.

Then apply that saved Material Property template to the matching replacement MDL in Material Editor prior to export from MCX as a MDL.

GaryGB

Hi Gary,

I totally agree that one runs into problems when using the Ground Polygon Wizard, and yes, I knew the KDFW_sett07.mdl was a 3D model. The problem I've found using the Ground Poly Wizard is that it messes up the exact position and things don't line up perfectlly. It will also corrupt the model if I don't un-check the box - "Group Polygons."

I was going to post an update regarding my work on this KDFW project and I finally got everything to work regarding the re-mapping and the over exposure, I guess you can call it, of my model. It seems to work fine now. Here's my screenshot:

As you can see, it's no longer C32, C31, and C30. It's C39, C38, and C37, and so forth all the way around terminal C. Since this addon works outside the sim, this project works for both FSX and P3D. There's also the A, B, D, and E terminals that have to be corrected. I have them re-mapped but just haven't finished it. I purchased New York's La Guardia - KLGA airport scenery a few months back and found that Terminal B has the wrong parking spots. But this addon doesn't use an mdl file for the ground polygons. It uses bgl files. I finally have them corrected now.

My biggest problem was in the way I was using MCX and the problem of making many of these ground polygons transparent. Many of the ground polygons are transparent and if they're not transparent in my model when I export them, I found that I had an opaque ground texture. After re-mapping, I changed the texture names to their original names before exporting from Sketchup so that the model texture names match the originals. I found this to be much easier and less problematic rather than adding the odd texture names to the texture folder, and having additional copies of textures, when I can simply use the dds textures I already have. Then in MCX, I match ALL the material properties from my model to the original material properties found in the original KDFW mdl file. Of course, there is the problem of the layers with the same names being merged into one. There are as many as 5 layers with the same names in the orinal model, and I believe this explains why they merge. Since many addon textures are transparent dds files, this is the hardest part to achieve in my model. Regarding the kdfw_dett10 file having the ground markings, the background representing the ground portion MUST be transparent and the markings, such as C39 is of course opapue. I think you understand what I'm referring to. I can make them transparent in my model, but I have to go through many steps to make that possible, and I wondering if there's an easier way.
By the way, what does VTP stand for? I forgot.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

Congratulations on completion of your FSDT KDFW ground marking update project.

It was indeed a particularly challenging exploration of the mechanisms by which FSDT implemented 3D G-Polys in FSX / P3D that are created by not (1)- but multiple- superimposed layers.

IIRC, that scenery shows "sky blue" flickers in Top-Down view, but is otherwise free of flickers at tangential incidental angles to the ground.

Some might say that is the best we can achieve with more advanced Material Properties of a MDL in FSX / P3D, and the only other alternative method for implementing a G-Poly would be the legacy SCASM / ASM protocols which utilize the Vector Textured Polygon (aka "VTP") layer numbering method for referencing relative positioning of texture image layers in sequence draped on top of FS terrain mesh.

GaryGB

 

[arno]

Hi Ken,

I'm curious as to what import button I should use whenever I'm working with ground polygons, such as when re-mapping mdls and bgl model files. Some airport ground scenerys are created using a bgl file and others are created using an mdl file. In MCX, I believe there are 2 ways to import these type of files and I'm curious as to the correct way to import and export these files. One way is to use the Import button to import an mdl and a bgl model file. The other way is to use the Ground Polygon Wizard. When using the Ground Polygon Wizard, it seems that one can only export the file as a bgl file. One can import an mdl file using the Ground Polygon Wizard but it won't export as an mdl. When using the Import button in MCX, it's possible to import and export as an mdl or a bgl file. So, If I'm importing a bgl file, should I use the Ground Polygon Wizard to import and export a bgl file, or should I use either? If I'm importing an mdl file and want to export as an mdl file, would I use the Import button to import the mdl since it's not possible to export as an mdl using the Ground Polyson Wizard? At what circumstances should I use the Import button and the Ground Polygon Wizard? I just want to better understand the difference between using the Import button and the Ground polygon Wizard. The problem I've found when using the Ground Polygon Wizard is that if one leaves the Group Polygon box checked, it will corrupt the bgl file. Why does it do that? What I have to do is to un-check that box.

The ground polygon wizard is design to convert flat ground polygons using the FS2004 flat earth projection to the round earth FSX world. So it will load the object (either from MDL or BGL) and then apply the correct curvation of the earth, The wizard should only be used for that conversion.

If you want to edit a BGL or MDL that has already been modified for the curve of the earth (e.g. is for FSX or P3D already), you should use the normal import button and not the wizard.

 

[kmanning]

Hi Ken,

The ground polygon wizard is design to convert flat ground polygons using the FS2004 flat earth projection to the round earth FSX world. So it will load the object (either from MDL or BGL) and then apply the correct curvation of the earth, The wizard should only be used for that conversion.

If you want to edit a BGL or MDL that has already been modified for the curve of the earth (e.g. is for FSX or P3D already), you should use the normal import button and not the wizard.

Thanks Arno,

Okay. I think I got it. FS2004, also known as FS9, uses the flat earth projection and FSX and P3D uses the round earth. So, one would not use the Ground Polygon Wizard to edit bgl and mdl files if they originate from FSX or P3D but use the Import button instead.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken,

The ground polygon wizard is design to convert flat ground polygons using the FS2004 flat earth projection to the round earth FSX world. So it will load the object (either from MDL or BGL) and then apply the correct curvation of the earth, The wizard should only be used for that conversion.

If you want to edit a BGL or MDL that has already been modified for the curve of the earth (e.g. is for FSX or P3D already), you should use the normal import button and not the wizard.

Thanks Arno,

Okay. I think I got it. FS2004, also known as FS9, uses the flat earth projection and FSX and P3D uses the round earth. So, one would not use the Ground Polygon Wizard to edit bgl and mdl files if they originate from FSX or P3D but use the Import button instead.

Ken.

Hi Ken:

Certainly Arno is best qualified to explain how MCX works, and it is good to have his comment here.

IIUC, Arno stated above that G-Poly Wizard (only ?) works with "flat" / level surfaces, and not 3D G-Polys such as FSDT used at KDFW.

One of the purposes, AFAIK, of the G-Poly Wizard during its 'import' process, is to exclude non-flat objects in a BGL from being processed.

At first glance, one might be concerned that one would not have the opportunity for processing of a "3D" G-Poly by MCX G-Poly Wizard to modify imported non-flat 3D models (with ground extents larger than 100 Meters) by converting them to a 'curved' shape so that they fit onto the surface of the "round earth FSX world" without edges of buildings being elevated AGL.

But MCX actually still can otherwise do this via a 'normal import' via: (see MCX PDF Manual)

6.10 Earth curve correction editor
MDL objects in Flight Simulator use flat earth coordinates. However they are placed in an earth
that is curved. This means that for big objects you can see that they start to float the further you
go from the reference point. Besides that there is an issue in Flight Simulator that causes attached
59

objects that are further away from the reference point to appear at the wrong position. The earth
curve editor, see Figure 6.30 can be used to correct both of these effects.

Figure 6.30: Earth curve editor

On the left side of the editor you can select one of the following options:

• Apply earth curve correction to geometry and animations is used if you have have an
object that should follow the curve of the earth. For example a big building or a scene with
multiple buildings in it. Based on the reference point you specify the editor will calculate the
displacement that is needed to have all geometry and animations follow the curve of the earth
exactly. The editor assume that your input model uses the FS2004 flat earth coordinates.

• Remove earth curve correction from geometry and animations is the reverse of the
option described above and can be used to undo an earth curve correction that was applied
to a model.

• Apply earth curve correction to attachpoints can be used if you don’t want to correct
your geometry, but still want to make sure that attachpoints line up with your geometry.
On the right side of the editor you can use the position control to specify the reference point that
should be used for the earth curve correction. See section 13.1 for more information about using
the position control. Once you have applied the earth curve correction, using the Correct button,
you need to make sure that the object is placed at this reference coordinate in your scenery as
well."

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Hi Arno,

I cannot figure this out. At first, I was using the Ground Poly Wizard and it was said that I should use the Import button to edit mdl and bgl files and not the Ground Poly Wizard. So, I thought I would go back and edit the KLGA ground bgl file using the Import button. Now, after editing and exporting the bgl ground scenery file, nothing changes in P3Dv4. The ground scenery remains the same, no mater how I change the material properties in MCX. Here's a screenshot:

Notice the outline, what looks to be like a concret, the light gray portion. It's supposed to look this:

But no mater what I do, it all remains the same with no changes. I've even tried editing the Z biase and no matter what I enter, nothing changes. I seemed to worked okay when I used the Groud Polygon Wizard, but I'll need to go back and try it again. In regard to rather to use the Ground Polygon Wizard or the Import button, using the Import button does seem to work. The thing I've learned about this BGL airport ground scenery is that it is NOT 3D like that of the FSDT. It is a flat ground scenery. I verified this in MCX. I'm thinking that I should use the Ground Polygon Wizard and not the Import button since the bgl is not 3D and is a flat ground polygon. I don't know what else it could be and I don't understand why things won't chnage in the scenery when I use the import button in MCX. I've tried entering different layers and properties but nothing changes in the P3Dv4. It all remains the same with wierd polygons.

Ken.

 

[arno]

Hi Ken,

I'm not familiar with this scenery, so it's hard to tell what happens from just some pictures without knowing how the bgl file is structured.

If you are editing an existing scenery I would never use the GPW as that would add a curvation that was not there before.

Are you sure it was a P3D V4 bgl file before? If it was a FS2002 style ground polygon bgl file you better export it that way again. Z-bias values are reversed between these two types for example.

 

[kmanning]

Are you sure it was a P3D V4 bgl file before? If it was a FS2002 style ground polygon bgl file you better export it that way again. Z-bias values are reversed between these two types for example.

The one I bought is for FSX and P3Dv4. This airport scenery was not made for FS2002. I don't understand why my edits don't change in the sim when using the Import button. I have another question. In the Material Editor, under Alpha Test, there are settings that may say, for exmple, Never, 1, False. Let's say I edit them to Never, 4, True and export them. Every time I re-import the object and open the Material Editor, the changes I've made revert back to what it was originally - Never, 1, False. Why does it reverting back. Also, under "Special Functionally," Reflection Scale is 100. I change it to 0.8. When I export the object and re-import it, Reflection Scale goes back to 100. Why does these items revert back to what they were and not save my settings?


Ken.

 

[arno]

If the scenery also works for FSX then the ground polygons are most likely still using the FS2002 techniques. You can try to export as ground polygon from the export menu instead of p3d V4 bgl.

Not all material settings are supported by each simulator and some settings are only stored based on other settings. For example if you set the alpha test mode to never, then the test level is irrelevant and is probably ignored by XtoMdl.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

Which payware addon that you bought for FSX and P3Dv4 are you referring to ?

We need to know, so we can advise you on what type of G-Poly is actually under discussion in your latter posts.


HINT: During import of BGLs into MCX, one can (almost always) distinguish what file reader type is used to read a G-Poly

That can help discern whether the G-Poly is a legacy FS2002 SCASM / ASM VTP type or a FS2Kx MDL type.

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Hi Ken:

Which payware addon that you bought for FSX and P3Dv4 are you referring to ?

We need to know, so we can advise you on what type of G-Poly is actually under discussion in your latter posts.

Hi Gary,

It's the addon made by Drzewiecki Design. The manuals says the scenery is a FSX-based platforms including Microsoft Flight Simulator X and Lockheed Martin Prepar3D, and P3Dv5.

HINT: During import of BGLs into MCX, one can (almost always) distinguish what file reader type is used to read a G-Poly

That can help discern whether the G-Poly is a legacy FS2002 SCASM / ASM VTP type or a FS2Kx MDL type.

GaryGB

That's what I wanted to know. But where do I read that after import? Is it in the massage at the bottom, and if so, what does it say or how is it spelled out?

Ken.

 

[arno]

Can you post a screenshot of the start of the event log when reading the file? The type of reader used is an indication of the type of BGL file.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

I downloaded Drzewiecki Design NY Airports v2 X DEMO ...at AVSIM library:

https://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=203499


Here is a screenshot of the KLGA_GND_C.bgl imported by MCX-GPW showing both the G-Poly Wizard and the Event Log SCASM entries.

I am not familiar with how FS2002 SCASM / ASM G-Polys can utilize DDS textures for P3Dv4; perhaps Arno may understand this ?

GaryGB

 

[kmanning]

Can you post a screenshot of the start of the event log when reading the file? The type of reader used is an indication of the type of BGL file.

Hi Arno,

Here's the screenshot. I used the Import button. It's looks like the same thing Gary posted using the GPW:

 

[kmanning]

Hi,

Well, it looks like I had two problems instead of one. One is that using the Import button doesn't seem to export the bgl scenery. When I try to open the KLGA_GND_C.bgl file using the BGLtoXML program, it cannot, and will not read the file. The same thing applies to my bgl file KLGA_Ground_1.bgl. Two, I wanted to be sure it had the correct coordinates and that it was placing the airport in the right location. It was not. Every time I exported my file, it placed it somewhere on the otherside of the world. I imported my file using the GPW and sure enough it was in the wrong location. From what I gather now, it seems that the only way to make this work is to import using the GPW and export using the FS2002 ground poly style. But, I want to confirm if this is correct way. The only way I know of to make sure the coordinates are correct is using the GPW. I need to find out where in the output log, or message entry at the bottom, to determine what file type is being used so that I'll know what to select.

Ken.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ken:

We are fortunate Arno has generously provided us with the GPW in MCX to import- and export- such FS2002 SCASM / ASM type G-Polys.


Arno may comment further here, but AFAIK, your best option is to export a replacement FS2002 G-Poly to replace the original(s).


BTW: What is it in the existing G-Polys at KGLA that you believe requires edits here ?



NOTE: If BGLs such as these are coded in a "very old" legacy format (prior to the FS2004 format), you could decompile it using:

* BGLAnalyze version 3.1 (aka "BGLAnalyze31") by Winfried Orthmann

...or

* SCASM Disassembler version 2.3 (aka "ScDis23") by Takuya Murakami

...as discussed in this thread

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/convert-api-for-use-in-fs9.16915/


I have already de-compiled this BGL and seen that it is in a updated format which is actually able to utilize previously unused Material parameters in SCASM / ASM FS code, so I doubt many here would comprehend the source code in addition to Arno himself.

I suspect that MCX GPW will do all that is needed with its existing GUI to import- and export- any KLGA SCASM / ASM G-Polys as needed.

Note that MCX GPW by default imports / displays assigned Geographic coordinates for placement that already exist in the G-Poly BGL.

GaryGB

 

[arno]

The fact that the SCASM reader is used indicates this is a FS2002 style ground polygon bgl indeed. So it is not a bglcomp made file.

I would still use the import button, as the curvation is probably already applied by the developer and you don't want to apply it twice.

For export you would use the ground polygon bgl in MCX, not the P3D bgl.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Arno:

I am inclined to see the use of the GPW GUI as an exceptionally helpful aid to Ken's proposed task for his new project at KLGA.


Considering the complexity of many mapped textures on multiple SCASM G-Polys in the latter KLGA scenery package, is there a way to:

* Use MCX' GPW to remove the "Earth Curve" on the G-Polys, then output a "flat" / level G-Poly as a 3D model for Ken's intended editing.

* After Ken's intended editing of the 3D model, re-import the 3D model and convert it to a G-Poly that can then be imported to GPW

* Restore the "Earth Curve" to G-Polys during export via MCX' GPW using the same P3Dv4-compatible SCASM / ASM G-Poly code.



ISTR some threads where this procedure was used in some G-Poly projects by FSDev forum participants.

IIRC, part of this function is performed using the Ground Polygon Wizard feature as described in the MCX manual:


"7.2 Ground polygon wizard
If you use normal scenery objects for your custom ground polygons they will typically flicker,
because the different textures have not been layered correctly. And for FSX and Prepar3D you
will also run into the issue of floating polygons due to the curve of the earth. The ground polygon
wizard, see Figure 7.2, is a tool that will help you to create a ground polygon BGL file without
these issues.

Figure 7.2: Ground polygon wizard

When using the wizard you will fill in all details of the window, the steps are:

1. Select the object that contains the ground polygons using the ... button. The checkboxes to
Project flat polygons and Filter out non-ground polygons affect how your object is
loaded from the specified file. By default both these options are enabled and that will give
the best results in general.

Projecting polygons on the ground means that all polygons for which the dot product of the
normal vector and the upwards normal is above the specified threshold value will be projected
onto ground level. This lowers them to the ground. So for example the roof of a house will
then become a ground plane.

Filtering out non ground polygons means that all polygons whose Z coordinate values are
not zero will be removed from the object.

2. Select the output BGL file for the ground polygon using the ... button.


3. After selecting the object to convert, the list of materials in the object will be filled. In this
grid you see the material name, layer, viability, night texture and seasonal texture status.

You can alter any of these columns to specify how the ground polygon should be created.

For FS2004 and FSX the layer values are positive and typically an increment of 4 is used
between the layers The higher the layer number the more priority the texture has.

For Prepar3D the layer values are negative, the more negative the number the higher the priority
of the texture is. The wizard will make sure that the numbering convention of the selected
output simulator is used, so if you enter positive layers, but export to Prepar3D that will be
fixed.

The visibility value indicates at which distance the polygon should become visible. This is
only supported for FS2004 and FSX output, else this column will be disabled.

The night texture (LM) checkbox indicates if this material has a night texture assigned. You
will have to ensure yourself that the corresponding texture file also exists.

The seasonal texture checkbox indicates if this material has seasonal textures assigned. This
is only supported for FS2004, FSX and Prepar3D v4 output, else this column is disabled.

4. With the Convert textures checkbox you can indicate if the textures of the object should
be converted as well. If enabled, the output folder is specified in the textbox below (you can
use the ... button to select the folder). With the Overwrite existing textures checkbox
you can indicate if existing textures should be overwritten during the conversion.

5. Specify the position where the ground polygons should be placed. See section 13.1 for more
information about how to specify the position.

6. In the options section select for which FS version you want to create ground polygons. Certain
options might be disabled based on the version you select.

7. The Slice polygons checkbox determines if polygons should be sliced into pieces of 100
meter. To be able to follow the curve of the earth correctly your polygons need to be small
enough, so when you disable this option make sure you slice them in your modelling tool.

8. The Group polygons checkbox determines if polygons are grouped together. These grouped
polygons than become one object or reference point in the output BGL file. In general
grouping the polygons together for a given area improves the performance in the simulator.
With the textbox you can specify the size of the grid that is used for grouping.

9. The Optimize reference point checkbox determines if the reference point is placed opti-
mally in the center of the object. When grouping polygons this option is always enabled.

10. The Prevent autogen exclusion checkbox determines if your ground polygons should
prevent autogen object suppression or not. For FS2004 and FSX output a hack is used to
prevent the suppression, for other versions the BGLComp placement flag is used.

11. The DX10 compatibility checkbox determines if the FSX output is written in such a way
that it also works in DX10 mode of FSX. This however disables the use of night textures.

12. With the All textures LM checkbox you can quickly enable or disable the night texture
status on all materials.

13. With the All textures seas checkbox you can quickly enable or disable the seasonal texture
status on all materials.

14. With the Define seasons button you open the editor to define the seasons, see section 6.11
for more details.

15. Once all settings are set, you can use the Convert button to start the creation of the ground
polygon BGL file.


With the Save settings button you can save all the settings that you made for the ground polygons
to a file, so that you can reuse them later when you want to convert the same object again. With
the Load settings button you can load them back in again."


BTW: I cannot find any documentation on a "Ground Polygon Converter" function in the MCX PDF manual.

I was wondering if it might be used to "Batch" convert G-Polys to / from "flat Earth" type 3D model configurations / coordinates.

I would be grateful if you would please explain what that "Ground Polygon Converter" function is.


UPDATE: I found the explanation of "Ground Polygon Converter" in an archive of your old Blog (offline) via a post by Tom Gibson:

http://msmvps.com/blogs/arnogerretsen/archive/2011/02/06/ground-polygon-wizard-available.aspx



PS: I feel sorry for the guy who was seeking info on how to implement his custom G-Poly via ADE in this thread:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/custom-polygon-placement.72817/


Years ago, I got the impression that MCX GPW was a 'forbidden' subject to be mentioned only very indirectly by the ADE team.

Now that Jon has "retired" from active development of ADE it seems MCX GPW is openly embraced in all its glory, since there will no longer be development by Don Grovestine of ADE GP Editor either; my how times change !


Well. I'm off to plan acquisition of my "SteelBox" Edition of MSFS 2024 here in the USA.


Thanks again, Arno, for all your help here, and for making so many useful features available in MCX.

GaryGB