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Jet Engine Performance

7) Using Simconnect, you can reproduce the exact fuel flow equation of a real aircraft at any time, and put that in the gauges to display proper fuel values at any sim situation, and all of this independant of thrust. As jx_ stated many times -and he was correct in this case:)- SFC is the key. I know you all know Fuel Flow is a read only variable, BUT, how about-Fuel Tank quantity ??:)

Tom

So if i understand correctly, messing with corrected fuel flow wont have the desired effect when it comes to getting proper thrust AND draining the tanks at the correct rate?
 
So if i understand correctly, messing with corrected fuel flow wont have the desired effect when it comes to getting proper thrust AND draining the tanks at the correct rate?

I would say yes. CFF seems to be a useless variable from a panel developer POV.

Tom
 
Lol so this is the secret to getting whatever thrust i want for a particular fuel flow. Im guessing this is how the big guns like PMDG do things....

Just out of curiosity what payware projects have you worked on?
 
Tom,

Just FYI about your comment with the numbered sections. Table 1505 is mislabeled. Ignore the title. It is simply "Time to N2"

Yes, that's true. I guess it is called "Corrected FF" because it (returns?) a factor that is used in the formula to populate CFF AVariable.

However, the 0.065 comment is accurate. But, that number varies, and the hard coded statement (not affected by tables) is incorrect.
The starter has varied for me from 16%-23% and fuel flow during start is only tied to the single engine TSFC * SSL thrust * 0.065-0.072. This is the min flow threshold I spoke of before.

The hard coded reference was mostly regarding to elapsed spool time through the start until combustion. I made tests with default CRJ-700 and B737-800, and in both Autostart fired the engine at ~21% CN2 0.065, both in SSL conditions and at 40.000 ft. Maybe you've tested aircraft that have any special condition, afterburner ON, or any other variable that could mean those different values?

I suspect, although I can not reliably reproduce, the starter is looking at CN1 and 1505 (which looks at CN2 at x=0) to determine a start point.

What I found was Table 1506 has no influence, because I left Thrust Factor totally in 0 and the process wasn't affected. BUT when I changed 1502 to 0 CN1 in all fields, fuel flow remained in 0, engine spooled until ~21% CN2 and never fired up. Also I changed 1505 to "CFF" factor in 0 all fields and it had no effect in the start process up to combustion, then something interesting happened but I am still digesting what could that mean.

I'll keep testing until I find more strong conclusions.

All that aside, if you guys figure out how to manipulate your fuel burn or thrust with simconnect you'll be good to go. Too bad I prefer FS9 :(

Yeah, with Simconnect everything turns into simple, but it's critical to find a valid starting point. As you stated, SFC is a good one; it's a matter of searching proper engine tables to get these values.

Tom
 
I haven't spent much time investigating the 0.065-0.070 starter thing yet.... one day. But I know it varies. It's always based on Max rated SSL thrust in the CFG file though.

What I found was Table 1506 has no influence, because I left Thrust Factor totally in 0 and the process wasn't affected. BUT when I changed 1502 to 0 CN1 in all fields, fuel flow remained in 0, engine spooled until ~21% CN2 and never fired up. Also I changed 1505 to "CFF" factor in 0 all fields and it had no effect in the start process up to combustion, then something interesting happened but I am still digesting what could that mean.

I don't mean the thrust factors, they are ignored in start. I mean the fan rotation number or this could be translated in theory as starter cycle CN1 rpm.

I believe it looks for those two criteria I outlined above. I will be working on this more in the next few weeks.

In your test I see two things:

1) With zero N2, engine never fired because it can not sustain the minimum fuel flow threshold of 0.065-0.070

2) when you change 1505 to 0 the engine will start, but it will immediately go to 0 and stay there. If you change all fields to 55 it will jump to 55 and stay there too. This is because there is infinite time at that setting. if you set x=0 too 100 N2 and x=highest to 0 the engine will reverse spool against throttle until it dies at the threshold.
 
Lol so this is the secret to getting whatever thrust i want for a particular fuel flow. Im guessing this is how the big guns like PMDG do things....

Just out of curiosity what payware projects have you worked on?

None of PMDG for sure!:D

Seriously, I'm not a payware developer; FS is a great hobby to me. However, and being fair, I've done some works for the commercial market (UFCP, a CIVA INS -pure XML-, etc) plus a bunch of private-paying projects.

Tom
 
I don't mean the thrust factors, they are ignored in start. I mean the fan rotation number or this could be translated in theory as starter cycle CN1 rpm.

I believe it looks for those two criteria I outlined above. I will be working on this more in the next few weeks.

Yes, that's possible. I'll make tests based on your findings.

In your test I see two things:

1) With zero N2, engine never fired because it can not sustain the minimum fuel flow threshold of 0.065-0.070

I was 0 CN1, not CN2. But I agree with what you say about the fuel flow threshold.

2) when you change 1505 to 0 the engine will start, but it will immediately go to 0 and stay there. If you change all fields to 55 it will jump to 55 and stay there too. This is because there is infinite time at that setting. if you set x=0 too 100 N2 and x=highest to 0 the engine will reverse spool against throttle until it dies at the threshold.

1505 to 0, I mean, leaving CN1 table file with the normal sequence and changing "CFF" factor value to 0 in every column. Did that and CN2 raised to max immediately after combustion, and I wasn't able to control it with throttle inputs, it remained at max forever. Which gives me a clue that CFF is part of the D factor in the PID algorithm, when it is 0, destination value is reached instantly; and when it's 1 is the opposite, as there is no change destination value can't be reached. I made the "all columns in 1" tests and happened that the engine started and rolled back to 0.

Tom
 
interesting. When I tried it stuck to whatever CN2 I had y= set to (checked on a CN2 gauge.) I'll have to try the 0's again.
 
Correction to post #135 re pressure and temperature

I have amended my post #135 to state that the equations apply up to 36089 feet.

Roy
 
I have not seen any indication through usage over the past 15 years that 1505 is anything other than spool rate in practical usage.

Whether this is some kind of C2/FF/bleed calculation may remain unclear and depending on how you interpret the numbers theoretically, you can get varied interpretations.
The bottom line is the left side Y reflects engine spool up rate at low RPM and the right side Y is spool (RPM rate change) at high RPM. This is most easily observed using AirEd.

In practical usage, low Y on the left side results in slower starter and ignition RPM and and high Y on the right side results in a more responsive (faster reaction time) engine RPM change
at high RPM.

When using AirEd, Setting low Y values on the left X is useful for reducing starter surge. When used this way, it's important to increase the Y rapidly in the table (at least by X = 0.32)
to prevent too-slugish response at lower approach air speed RPMs.

Fan jets (high inlet area engines) tend to have slower spool times at higher RPMs at cruise than turbojets.

1505 is a relative table, not absolute values which is part of it's deceiving nature so if the cfg file inlet is large, 1505 will output slower response than the reverse.

What is x and Y exactly? I have ceased to care years ago. I just use it to control low and high RPM spool and I get the results I want.

For instance, when configuring the SR-71 engine which has very slow startup spool time and near instant response at max power. I have the following values (x = y:)
0.0029 = 1.51
0.118 = 7.6
0.0207 = 13.6
0.024 = 23
...
0.167 = 100
...
0.6869 = 125

For my purposes, I simply interpret 0.6869 X as 70% engine power/(FF?) so the spool above 70% is interpolated based on the highest value.
By default, FSX ignition is ~22% RPM regardless. I have found it useful to interpret the table where x = 0.167 - x = 0.32 as close to ignition RPM.
If you HAVE to reason it all out, I think there is a case for those who have observed the table seems to be inverted from a typical interpretation.
For me, I do not try to figure it out and simply set low Y values for slow spool and high Y values for faster spool between zero and seventy percent Fuel flow.

The results of my settings above is during starter spool, the increase is quite slow and there is little surge at ignition as opposed to default 737 values.
At runway acceleration max power and Mach 3.2 cruise, the RPM responds to throttle changes in less than 2 seconds.
In the Concorde, I also adjust the low scale to prevent the startup RPM from surging to 100% or more (which is the default FS2002 behavior.)
Some engine have significant surge at startup so you need to know your engine's characteristics when playing with this table.

Some evidence Y is related to N2 is if the right Y is too low, N2 will be limited (reduced) regardless of the 1503/1504 values.
-Pv-
 
Looking at that table in aired from left to right is time from LIGHT OFF CN2 to MAX CN2. If you look at it this way it make it much easier to understand what's going on.

A wider space between lines will take longer for the CN2 to reach that number to the right.

A horizontal line will maintain constant CN2 for the duration of that segment.

A vertical line will be instantaneous.


Note that the table is applied with a throttle position modifier that compresses the time by some unknown factor if the throttle is commanding a different CN2 than the engine is outputting. Spool time will change in this instance.
 
^^^
This is pretty much how I use and interpret it. Only diff is in my experience, the starter spool is also affected. I'll take a look at it again some day.
-Pv-
 
Not knowing beans about 1505, I took your thoughts Paul and tried to reason it out myself. I stopped using Aired since Roy is helping straighten out my JT-15Ds, and said that he uses Air Update. Well I think as a new guy to all of this that Airupdate is the way to go. Makes a lot more sense out of the different parts of the Air File. Airupdate dumps data from the AIR file into a format that makes plugging the data into spreadsheets easy. As you can see here.

In my case the start sequence on the Eaglesoft Hawker 400XP (Beechjet) was way off. Not even close. So after a few SWAGs I decided to make it as linear as possible as that is how the RW, JT-15s start.

This is what was in the original file, the second one is my update.

No knowing any better the first time I tossed in some numbers, the engine started fine, but would not go past idle. I had set the Right Side Y numbers to max at 70.0. We can see that 108 was used on the original scale. The problem I had using the original numbers was a really annoying peak during start. Now it starts as it should.

If anyone knows whether the peak was caused by the original numbers on the Left column or the original numbers on the Right column, I'd love to know why or what.

Record: 1505 *FS2000 Turbine Jet Table N? vs Y
Points: 10
0.000000 0.000000
0.002940 10.000000
0.011800 30.000000
0.020660 40.000000
0.033970 50.000000
0.053170 60.000000
0.133910 70.000000
0.290000 80.000000
0.440000 90.000000
0.570000 108.000000

Record: 1505 *FS2000 Turbine Jet Table N? vs Y
Points: 10
0.010000 0.000000
0.050000 10.000000
0.200000 20.000000
0.300000 30.000000
0.400000 40.000000
0.500000 50.000000
0.600000 60.000000
0.800000 80.000000
0.900000 90.000000
0.950000 95.000000
 
After flight testing and reading a little more, yes, in fact 1505 WILL limit CN1 and CN2 if you do not have at least the highest values in 1505 as you did in 1503 and 1504 so my corrected 1505 looks like this:

Record: 1505 *FS2000 Turbine Jet Table N? vs Y
Points: 10

0.010000 0.000000
0.050000 10.000000
0.200000 20.000000
0.300000 30.000000
0.500000 50.000000
0.700000 70.000000
0.800000 80.000000
0.900000 90.000000
1.000000 100.000000
1.040000 104.000000
 
Here is an example of table 1505 for the RR Conway 550
Ignition occurs at 24% and max cn2 is 105%. You should as has been said here many times think of 1505 only as time to n2. Having a concave curve eliminates the surge on start-up produced by the default 1505. You need to find the idle n2 and then do a slam test ie. slam the throttle to max and count how many seconds it takes. Any ground engineer familiar with your engines should tell you what the figure should be. Adjust your 1505 to match.
1. how long to spool to idle
2. how long to max n2 from idle (slam test)
You should do these tests at sea level in ISA conditions
Record: 1505 Turbine CN2 vs fuel flow
Points: 10
0.000000 24.100000
250.000000 29.400000
509.000000 36.733500
623.440000 41.158800
688.370000 45.568700
754.300000 52.301900
818.230000 61.889700
881.160000 73.001200
944.090000 88.043100
1005.020000 104.999700
 
I take it then from your numbers, so I can understand, that FF in lbs/hr is 1005.02000 at 104.999700% N2?

Ignition starts at 24% even with no fuel flow on your engine?

I would read your numbers to mean ignition starts at 29.4%?
 
It really does start at 24%. The fuel flow meters come to life and EGT jumps from ambient up to 540deg (over a period of seconds) until settling back when the engines are idling. All the engine related temperature and pressure gauges start to move when n2 passes 24%. Not before!
 
Got it. I see that now after experimenting with my engine. My numbers are so different however it's hard to quite make heads or tails out of yours. :)

Either way, what I have in 1505 works very well for the Beechjet.
 
If it works it works!! Now take your a/c to Kuwait load real weather and see how much your engines exceed limitations. N2 N1 and EGT. This way you can build in pilot mishandling and perhaps even shut down the engines.
 
Keep in mind there is more to "spool" than 1505 depending on what you are looking at (CN2 by itself or throttle vs thrust.)
A reference document earlier in this thread claims 1507 is some sort of engine RAM drag or airflow.
To me, drag most appropriately slows something down given the same fuel flow and thrust.
In this case, changing 1507 does not reduce engine power or increase fuel flow to obtain the same
thrust or speed. However, it changes how fast CN1 responds to CN1 changes while keeping the same ratio.
The higher the table value for a given CN2%, the faster CN1 responds. So instead of calling it "drag" I call it "spool" since CN2 and
CN1 are on different shafts. So, 1505 is FF/CN2 spool and 1507 is CN2/CN1 spool.

The two work together to produce the end effect of apparent throttle/power response. Slower CN1 tends to make the throttle
yoyo more or take longer to settle into a given autothrottle airspeed setting.

Military turbofans have very fast responses, large fanjets much slower and turboprops the slowest of them all.
-Pv-
 
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