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FS2004 Making flattens....

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unitedkingdom
I've made a WW2 airfield & the real thing has a 100ft or so hill near it with the Battle HQ on top. The trouble is flight sim has a flat area there.

I'm told I can make a hill using sbuilder. Nothing is showing so I'm obviously doing the wrong thing.

I've made a rectangular LMW land mask with 4 points at 0 & one at 45. The resulting .bgl doesn't show. I was hoping to make & group others together to form a hill.

Can someone tell me where I'm going wrong?
 
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Hi Terry:

If you post the LWM BGL file in question here in this thread (or via a PM), perhaps someone can inspect it, then offer individualized suggestions on how to achieve your goal by modifying the terrain mesh local to your FS9 project area using LWM3 sloped / tilted flattens via SBuilder for FS9. ;)

GaryGB
 
Hello GaryGB,

That's very kind of you. I am more than eager to send you any file you want?
I'll PM the sbuilder file I'm working with, plus a screenshot of the highlighted poly....I'm hoping 2 or 3 put together will make the hill for Battle HQ to go on.

This is the RAF Ibsley I made (helped by Stevo at ACG who started me off with ADE9 & Sbuilder) that needs the hill......

Terry.
http://www.rafibsley.com/
 
Can't see how to attach files to a PM.

Here's a jpg of the screenshot of the sbuilder file but I can't send that here as sbuilder isn't on the allowable list.
Shall I email it?

Terry.
 

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Sorry....I see you want bgl files!!
These are brand new. The screenshot is on my previous post!

Terry.
 

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Hi,

Supposing for a minute I am GaryB:), I would send you a link but as I am not, I send you the following information:
Quote:
"LWM tilted polygons

Flatten and Water LWM polygons referred so far are constant altitude polygons. We refer to these type of LWM polygons as LWM type 2 or LWM2 polygons. SBuilder 2.05 allows you to work with tilted polygons. We refer to these polygons as LWM type 3 or LWM3 polygons. The following is an explanation about the use of tilted polygons adapted from a post on the PTSim forum.

Before Sbuilder 2.05, LINES were sets of XYZ points defined by:

longitude
latitude
width
and POLYS were sets of XY points defined by:

longitude
latitude
Now POLYS are sets of XYZ points defined by:

longitude
latitude
altitude

Important Notes:

a) point altitudes in polygons are ignored in all cases except in polygons of type LWM.

b) LWM BGLs are now generated with "Poly3()" style commands. Therefore they will not work anymore in FS2002.

c) when you generate a LWM mask you need to press "Change" in the altitude box in order to set the altitude. "OK" is not sufficient. The idea is to make the working with "altitudes in polygons" very similar to the working with "widths in lines".

Here is a illustrated example to create a tilted plane. You can use this for tilted runways or for LWM rivers that approach the sea (altitude is 0 when the river reaches the sea but not 0 when the river is far from reaching the ocean).



In the example I have a polygon with 9 points. I want Point 9 to have an altitude of 20 meters and point 5 to have an altitude of 60 meters. The line that contains points 9 and 5 makes an angle of alpha with the horizontal plane. I want all the remaining points of the polygon to belong to the tilted plane that passes through 9 and 5 and that makes an angle of alpha with the horizontal plane. Here is what I have to do:



I start by drawing a polygon in the normal way (yellow). Then I enter the properties page and define the type of the polygon to be LWM WATER. I enter an altitude of 50 meters which will be applied to all points as soon as I press "Change". I used the value of 50 as it is a value between the extreme values of 20 and 60 that I want to define for the 2 important points - point 9 and point 5!. Then:



I enter the properties of point 9 and I declare its altitude to be 20 meters as in this picture:



And then I do the same for point 5:



I skip the picture where I declare the altitude of Point 5 to be 60 meters and I show the what I get if I reenter the properties of the polygon. I go for the "Points" window which looks very similar to the one you get when you are setting widths in VTP lines. The main difference is that you set altitudes instead of widths:



The window shows the highest and the lowest point which is in accordance to the previous settings. Now if I press "Change" in the Progressive window, points 1 2 3 4 6 7 and 8 will get the altitude that places them in the target tilted plane.

That is all. Do not press "Change" on the left as it would make all points at 40 meters! Just press OK and compile to see the result."


NOTE: When using "tilted" or "sloped" flattens to blend the edge of the airport background / RWY flatten into the surrounding terrain elevations in either FS9 or FSX, it is important to decide what terrain mesh resolution you intend for your airport to be used with, because the terrain mesh "shape" may change with different factors.


Factors which may may change FS terrain mesh "shape" at run time include:

1.) Internal resolution of terrain mesh BGL files ("density" of mesh expressed in Meters between elevation data points)

2.) TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL (aka "TMVL") setting in your active FS9.Cfg file

3.) FS GUI terrain mesh complexity slider setting

4.) FS GUI terrain mesh resolution slider setting


FYI: For additional details on the impact terrain mesh resolution and "aliasing to quad matrix area points" may have on 'precision' of placement for vector content vertices (including "tilted" or "sloped" flattens to blend the edge of the airport background / RWY flatten into the surrounding terrain elevations)... see this thread:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showpost.php?p=233056&postcount=13



PS: Some other threads related to this topic which I've participated in:


http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21545&highlight=sloped+flatten

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21981&highlight=sloped+flatten


Hope this helps ! :)

GaryGB


Unquote

As Gary would say: Google is your friend:rolleyes::).

Roby

PS Thanks Gary, I am learning it:D!
 
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Mmmm....is there any chance you could say it again in simple English because I have to say I haven't a clue what you're saying.

What I'm after is a straight-forward 'Do this, that, & this....'
 
Mmmm....is there any chance you could say it again in simple English because I have to say I haven't a clue what you're saying.

What I'm after is a straight-forward 'Do this, that, & this....'

Hi Terry:

I'll take a look at your files this evening (Chicago time), and will then try to offer some suggestions in a more concise format by tomorrow morning (in your time zone). :)

Regards,

GaryGB
 
Thanks Gary.....

If you looked at that rafibsley link I sent, the 2 Battle HQ views I have there are taken from the objects I've placed at 130ft.....there's just fresh air underneath. If I can get a hill there the objects can stay put!
 
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Hi Terry:

In SBuilder for FS9 with "Ibs_2_LWM2.BGL" loaded, vertex points for the (1) polygon all had the same Altitude value of "45". :spushpin:


FYI: Once a properly constructed vector Triangulated Irregular Network (aka "TIN") surface is created, each polygon vertex Altitude / elevation AMSL can be individually edited in SBuilder for FS9 by selecting the vertex, then choosing "Properties", and assigning the desired altitude / elevation for that point.


CAVEAT: Adjacent / overlapping polygon edges of triangles in a properly constructed vector "TIN" surface must use the same altitude / elevation, but the single distant point of the triangle may be set at a different altitude / elevation either above or below that of the adjacent / overlapping polygon edges of the triangle.


BTW: Although the example images in TMFViewer or SBuilderX posted by some authors for making sloping / sloped / tilted flattens as a means of producing 'blended flattens' / 'terrain skirts' around the periphery of single elevation central airport flattens may show their source data consisted of convex polygons, AFAIK, that method places the burden of triangulating the quadrangles at run time, which may impact performance in some high-complexity airport scenarios. :duck:

Also, it is better for performance IMHO to pre-align ones vertices to the nearest LOD-21 / QMID-23 FS terrain grid vertex to avoid aliasing and re-triangulation by the FS rendering engine at run time.


IMHO, pre-alignment of ones terrain mesh / flatten vertices to the Area Point vertices of the FS terrain quad matrix grid may prove to be as important in complex, high-resolution terrain mesh scenarios, as the need to make textures for FS in pixel dimensions which are "powers of 2", to avoid burdening the FS rendering engine at run time (...isn't it already under enough stress while rendering high-detail aircraft and processing add-on gauge / module code?) ;)


But I digress... :eek:



You may wish to review some prior posts regarding creation of sloping / sloped / tilted flattens before proceeding further with making LWM3 flattens:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425495&highlight=LWM3

http://www.ptsim.com/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=lwm3&start=30

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21714



I will try to identify some additional procedural guides on making sloped / tilted flattens, and will post some links here when I get some more time over the weekend.


I must look further into the options available for SBuilder for FS9 which would allow import of Lat / Lon / Alt (aka "X,Y,Z") data from SBuilderX application data files for purposes of creating a vector terrain surface to be compiled into a LWM3 BGL.

Perhaps it may be possible to implement something like what Arno has already created for ModelConverterX (which creates such vector terrain surface objects via the SHP2VEC compiler for FSX BGLs) ...except in the format of a LWM3 BGL for use in FS9, instead of a CVX vector BGL for use in FSX. :scratchch


< Ah, I found the thread I was looking for; more explanation of this option later ! :p > :

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44626


Hope this helps ! :)

GaryGB
 
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Hello Gary,

Thanks for your reply, but as techno-talk leaves my poor brain swimming
I had another go at OE IBS2.bgl & Bingo - it worked & I got a LMW3 doing exactly the same things I did yesterday. I put the .bgl into FSGW3 & grab_338 is what I got. Pity it points down instead of up!

I then changed the shape of the next one & dragged it south & you see the result in grab_340. One problem is the depression's location - it's north of where I want it, & 2: it's not a hill.

I really want the top of a hill where the BattleHQ on the ground is....I may be wanting too much I know.
Terry.
 

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Hold your horses...I have a mini Fuji here....

The lack of grass is worrying, & it needs a flat top.....
 

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Hi Terry:

Well done ! :)


In SBuilder for FS9 with your last posted "Ibs_2_LWM3.BGL" loaded, vertex Point#3 for Polygon#1 shows these values:

Lat: 50.8769100
Lon: -01.7687845
Alt: -0.0859375

The "-" value results in a "pit" at the base of the hill on the South side.; is this a desired part of the features for your hill design ? :confused:

BTW: IIUC, by "FSGW3" you were referring to a Bill Lyon's "Golden Wings version 3" custom installation / configuration of FS9 ?

Also, I wasn't sure what the "OE" prefix in "OE IBS2.bgl" referred to ?


FYI: Regarding the need for a "rectangular" base for your Battle HQ building, you may be able to make the desired ground surface shape in SBuilder for FS9, by adding points /vertices to a rectangular polygon at the center of your polygon structure (apex of the hill) all with the same altitude / elevation ...as alluded to in SBuilder's Help file:

SBuilder Menu > Help > Search Tab > Search String: "Line" > click 'List Topics' > Working with Points, Lines and Polygons > Scroll to: "Holding I D B and clicking"



Regarding the lack of vegetation on your custom hill:

Because your hill arises abruptly from the average base plane of nearby terrain surfaces, it has a steep slope angle, which causes the FS terrain engine to select a more mountainous type of land class texture (specifically, a special "slope texture") to display blended on top of the other land class textures of the sloping terrain of the hill sides and surrounding area.

Probably you could over-ride this by superimposing a VTPP over the area of the hill, which uses a land class texture with vegetation / autogen trees etc.


Hope this helps a bit more with the learning process ! :cool:

GaryGB
 
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Gary.....no pits wanted so I'm playing with editing the - numbers.

The hill in grab_012 is what I'm after with lots of playing around with shapes, etc, but it's orientated E-W where N-S is what I'd like, so I'll keep playing.

My latest new shape has a circular shape for the top with 9 points, & your FYI tip is something I'm about to try. I'll post a pic when I get what I want.

ATB,
Terry.

OE = Original Equipment....or KEEP.
 

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Hi Terry:

Looks like you are getting a good grasp of the methodology for LWM3 flattens ! :)

GaryGB
 
You flatter me Gary. I haven't got a clue what's going on here! Out of 15 efforts or so, 1 works & I cannot see that I've done anything different. On Saturday evening I did get a nice hill but it had a lake attached. When I checked the file I saw I'd done it as a water mask. I changed to a land mask. The water went & the hill remained. This was done in the Windows7 machine I use to do things for FSGW3.

Somehow Hampshire County Museum Service has heard about my Ibsley & have asked if they can see it, & I'm taking it to Winchester on Thursday. Yesterday I fired it (the flight sim tower [Vista] I use to show RAF Ibsley) & as the hill file from W7 didn't show up I did another from scratch. This took 4 hours before I got my hill. I've just installed the Battle HQ...see screenshot......just right of mid-centre.

Using ADE9 I put a path (I use taxiway paths) up the hill to the Battle HQ but the hill moved east & the HQ & path are at ground level. I didn't put a path on the actual hill file so will try that....or forget it. At least I have a hill now with the BHQ on it.

Oh - if I make another land mask can it overlay the one I have so I get 2 summits close one another?
Best wishes,
Terry.
 

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Hi Terry:

A few initial considerations may help achieve more predictable results when making vector objects in SBuilder for FS9 ...for use in FS2004 (aka "FS9"), and when displaying one's scenery on another computer installation of FS9. :idea:


First, when using "tilted" or "sloped" flattens (whether to build a hill or tunnel, or to blend the edge of the airport background / RWY flatten into the surrounding terrain elevations) in either FS9 or FSX, it is important to decide what terrain mesh resolution you intend for your airport to be used with, because the terrain mesh "shape" may change with different factors.



Then, to paraphrase my statements in the above linked post:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showpost.php?p=239862&postcount=4



To better control factors affecting displayed FS terrain mesh "shape" ...on the FS developer's and end user's computer installation of FS and one's custom add-on scenery :

1.) Be sure each FS9 installation uses the same resolution terrain mesh BGL files ("density" of mesh expressed in Meters between elevation data points)

NOTE: Maximum displayable resolution of the terrain mesh quad matrix grid in FS9 is 19.1 Meters (aka "LOD-11")


2.) Be sure each installation uses the same TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL (aka "TMVL") setting in the active FS9.Cfg file (located in the main FS9 install folder); it should read:

TERRAIN_MAX_VERTEX_LEVEL=19


NOTE: Be sure to save that edited Fs9.Cfg file with a ".Cfg" file extension and not ".Txt"


3.) Be sure each FS9 installation intended to display one's add-on custom scenery uses the same FS9 GUI terrain mesh complexity slider setting of "100" (100 percent complexity)



BTW: Unlike FSX, FS9 GUI does not have a slider for setting / limiting the displayed FS run time terrain mesh resolution; this is done via the TMVL setting inside the FS9.Cfg file, and by loading a 3rd party add-on FS9 format terrain mesh BGL file of the desired resolution (expressed in Meters and/or LOD as described above).


NOTE: If one does not load a 3rd party add-on FS9 format terrain mesh BGL, the default (very low !) resolution terrain mesh of FS9 itself is what will be used at run time.


FYI: If a 3rd party add-on FS9 format terrain mesh BGL is used, the Area entry for its folder location should be placed physically lower in the FS9 Scenery Library GUI stack of layers (Ex: in Addon Scenery\Scenery folder or a separate folder chain added to the the FS9 Scenery Library GUI using the "Add Area" button).

One's custom vector LWM3 hill should be placed physically higher (Ex: at the top) in the FS9 Scenery Library GUI stack of layers than the entry for any 3rd party add-on FS9 format terrain mesh BGL(s).



Doing all the above allows LWM3 BGLs to modify the terrain shape otherwise displayed by underlying default or 3rd party add-on FS9 format terrain mesh BGL(s) for one's scenery area of interest. ;)



PS: I found the original post by SBuilder's author on implementing LWM3 vector polygons which was the basis for the section in the Help file for SBuilder for FS9:

http://www.ptsim.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=299&start=0


The SBuilder for FS9 Help file version of the above is found via:

SBuilder Menu > Help > Search Tab > Search String: "Tilted" > click 'List Topics' > LWM Scenery > Scroll to: "LWM tilted polygons"



[EDITED]

I also would like to point out the SBuilder Help topic on how to display a LOD-21 Grid and how to select, and how to snap all polygon vertices to that LOD-21 Grid ...for better predictability of results when drawing your custom "hillock" upon the underlying hill in your FS9 terrain.


How to display a LOD-21 Grid

SBuilder Menu > Help > Search Tab > Search String: "Grid" > click 'List Topics' > Display Grid


How to "Snap" points / vertices to a LOD-21 Grid

SBuilder Menu > Help > Search Tab > Search String: "Grid" > click 'List Topics' > Snap to LOD



Again, I would draw your attention to the importance of pre-visualizing the alignment of ones "intended" vector polygon vertices within the framework of the FS quad matrix LOD-21 grid as shown by this post:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showpost.php?p=632954&postcount=28


...within the context of this topically pertinent thread:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425495&highlight=LWM3&page=2


NOTE: Although the above post was for FSX, the author still chose a QMID grid of LOD-23 in SBuilderX ...which was the same as a LOD-21 grid in SBuilder for FS9.

The max displayable terrain grid resolution in FS9 is LOD-11; but a LOD-11 quad has a sub-matrix of 256x256 "Area Points" per LOD-11 quad that is technically on a LOD-21 grid, and which is available for purposes of FS9 point / vertex placement. :teacher:

[END_EDIT]


Hope this helps a bit more ! :)

GaryGB
 
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