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FSXA min_flaps_for_spoilerons

delivery guy

delivery guy

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unitedstates
When i try to set any value the spoilerons fail to work unless the value is zero.
But for my aircraft the min flaps must be 25 degrees for spoilerons to activate.
I am thinking this entry is bogus as the SDK does not show any entry besides zero.

Any thoughts on this or solutions?
 
These are the parameters and K vars in the FS9 SDK.
How they quite work I'm not so sure as in the VC10 the spoilers work by themselves and also in tandem with the ailerons.

(A:SPOILERS ARMED ) Auto-spoilers armed (bool)
(A:SPOILERS HANDLE POSITION ) Spoiler handle position
(A:SPOILERS LEFT POSITION Percent left ) spoiler deflected
(A:SPOILERS RIGHT POSITION ) Percent right spoiler deflected



KEY_SPOILERS_TOGGLE SPOILERS_TOGGLE Toggles spoiler handle
KEY_SPOILERS_SET SPOILERS_SET Sets spoiler handle position (0 – 16383)
KEY_SPOILERS_ARM_TOGGLE SPOILERS_ARM_TOGGLE Toggles arming of auto-spoilers
KEY_SPOILERS_ON SPOILERS_ON Sets spoiler handle to full extend position
KEY_SPOILERS_OFF SPOILERS_OFF Sets spoiler handle to full retract position
KEY_SPOILERS_ARM_ON SPOILERS_ARM_ON Sets auto-spoiler arming on
KEY_SPOILERS_ARM_OFF SPOILERS_ARM_OFF Sets auto-spoiler arming off
KEY_SPOILERS_ARM_SET SPOILERS_ARM_SET Sets auto-spoiler arming (0,1)

They are completely separate from flap settings
 
DG
Check if you have this entry in the airplane geometry section of the aircraft.cfg:
Code: 
spoilerons_available  Boolean to indicate if the spoilers also behave as spoilerons for roll control (if spoilers are available): 0 = FALSE, 1 = TRUE.

Spoilerons are used in some aircraft instead of up aileron because they reduce lift and increase drag on the same side of the airplane, which offsets drag from down aileron on the other side.
The down aileron drag can give adverse yaw which makes the airplane turn in the opposite direction to that desired. This is a particular problem at high angle of attack.
The F-4 had spoilerons, but even so, at high AOA rudder was used to apply bank in a turn because of adverse yaw from ailerons.
With gear and flap down an aileron-rudder interconnect applied rudder when the ailerons were used. If the interconnect was inoperative, directional control on the approach was marginal.
Roy
 
WarpD said:
The SDK states the value is the min flap handle position.
Click to expand...


The SDK does have info but under the example for aircraft using the function it shows 1 aircraft with = 0. There is no example of an aircraft with a value.

Roy Holmes said:
DG
Check if you have this entry in the airplane geometry section of the aircraft.cfg:
Code: 
spoilerons_available  Boolean to indicate if the spoilers also behave as spoilerons for roll control (if spoilers are available): 0 = FALSE, 1 = TRUE.
Click to expand...

I already have spoilerons working an enabled to start at 5 degrees ailerons. But when i try to add a value for min flap handle they no longer work. I tried a bunch of tests with different values inputs and different flap handle event keys and it still fails to work. Even the example for the lear 45 should be using min flap and they have it set to zero.
 
If I look at FLAPS_HANDLE_POS it says it's 16383 for down and 0 for up. The values for specific angles are probably a simple slope calculation.
 
The 737-200 has spoilerons and these are the respective entries in its aircraft.cfg:

Code: 
aileron_to_spoileron_gain = 3.00
min_ailerons_for_spoilerons = 12.50
min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.0000
spoilerons_available = 1
 
After more testing on default models they all fail to work. The SKD wants the flaps position as the variable reads 1 through how many positions you have.
I even tried writing a custom code to prevent the spoiler from moving based on the flaps position. This fails because when you flip the switch for the spoilers the spoiler will remain closed but when you move the ailerons the spoiler ignores the axis event for the spoiler and still will move. So this entry for the spoilerons is bogus and no way to fix it so far. I will just have to have spoilerons for all flaps positions.
 
Hi,

min_flaps_for_spoilerons is in radians, not handle position as the SDK and the original comments in the aircraft.cfg say. The parameter refers to the angle position of the leading edge flaps-set (type=2) with the lowest [flaps.x] sequence number. If there is no type=2 leading edge flaps-set in the aircraft.cfg and min_flaps_for_spoilerons is > 0.0 the spoilerons won't operate at all.
If your plane doesn't have leading edge devices you could add a dummy leading edge flaps-set (type=2) with lift/drag/pitch scalars = 0 to make it work.

I tested it in FSX SP2 and P3D V2.5 (it's the same). As a quick check you could verify it with the default 737-800:

Only change the following value:
min_flaps_for_spoilerons=0.008726
This is 0.5 degrees which is half of the full travel of 1 degree of [flaps.1]. [flaps.2] is not involved as its sequence number is higher. The spoilerons now only deflect after moving the flaps handle from position 0 to 1.


[flaps.1]
type=2 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard=0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time=2 // seconds
flaps-position.0=0 //
flaps-position.1=1.0 //
damaging-speed=250 // KIAS
blowout-speed=300 // KIAS
lift_scalar=1.0
drag_scalar=1.0
pitch_scalar=1.0
system_type=1 //Hydraulic


[flaps.2]
type=2 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard=0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time=3 // seconds
flaps-position.0=0 //
flaps-position.1=0.5 //
flaps-position.4=1.0 //
damaging-speed=250 // KIAS
blowout-speed=300 // KIAS
lift_scalar=1.0
drag_scalar=1.0
pitch_scalar=1.0
system_type=1 //Hydraulic


Yves
 
Did some homework and this is what i learned. You do need the flaps on the leading edge for spoilerons.

I found if you want the spoilerons to work after 25 degrees flaps you can only set what flap position like the SDK says.
So if you want 25 degrees your going to have to use flaps 3 position which mean more than 20 degrees flaps.
I set the trailing edge as i need it 0,8,20,40 and the leading edge 0,1,2,3 this way you have 4 flaps positions and it does not matter what the value of degrees is since the span is 0.0 which mean no extra lift or drag.

For the input using 0,1,2,3 which works like flap positions i use these values: ( I find that slightly changing the value will not have an effect)

min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.15 ( 1th flap handle position 8*) NO SPOILERONS
min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.25 ( 2th flap handle position 20*) NO SPOILERONS
min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.35 ( 3th flap handle position 40*) WORKING SPOILERONS


[flaps.0]
type=2 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard=0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time=2 // seconds
flaps-position.0=0 //
flaps-position.1=1 //
flaps-position.2=2 //
flaps-position.3=3 //
damaging-speed=250 // KIAS
blowout-speed=300 // KIAS
lift_scalar=1.0
drag_scalar=1.0
pitch_scalar=1.0
system_type=1 //Hydraulic

[flaps.1]
type=1 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard=0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time=2 // seconds
flaps-position.0=0 //
flaps-position.1=8 //
flaps-position.2=20 //
flaps-position.3=40 //
damaging-speed=250 // KIAS
blowout-speed=300 // KIAS
lift_scalar=1.0
drag_scalar=1.0
pitch_scalar=1.0
system_type=1 //Hydraulic

Working spoilerons==========:yikes: Thanks Yves as your help made me dial in the perfect formula.
 
Last edited:
Good to hear that it worked! :) I have no idea why MS made that condition depending on leading edge and not trailing edge flaps.
 
My main complaint about spoilers and spoilerons is that I usually need to have speed brakes as well, but they all come under the spoiler function.
Real spoilers work by decreasing lift and increasing drag and real speed brakes mainly increase drag.

Spoilerons are not too bad because they can be coded as ailerons which means no need for LE flap interaction. If you need min flaps for spoilerons, just code it that way.

Lift dump spoilers are a problem because if I assign a negative lift effect to them it also will affect speed brakes.

One way around that is to assign something like minus 70 degrees to the last trailing edge flap setting or have a separate flap section for lift dump.
Then spoilerons become ailerons, lift dump spoilers become flaps and speed brakes are the only spoilers.
Roy
 
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