multiple texture mapping and uvw

[noob24]

Im using max2009 and am having difficulties getting to grips with the correct method of creating multiple texture maps.

i have experimanted with the uvw unwrap modifier and edit function but am not sure if i should place all my in max with the uvw edit or unwrap them one at a time export to photoshop and place them in layers all on to the same 2048/ 1024 size map there .

what is the best method or correct method for doing this. I have tried the individual method and find that once i have exported to photoshop if i then try to manupilate /resize or move them around on the sheet they loose their uvw coordinates and are no longer mapped correctly if i re apply the map the object in max.

could anyone give me an idiots guide to the correct most efficient way to do this from start to finish

thanks

 

[hcornea]

Im using max2009 and am having difficulties getting to grips with the correct method of creating multiple texture maps.

....

what is the best method or correct method for doing this. I have tried the individual method and find that once i have exported to photoshop if i then try to manupilate /resize or move them around on the sheet they loose their uvw coordinates and are no longer mapped correctly if i re apply the map the object in max.
....

Hmmmmm.

First things first .... which FS are you developing for? Max 2009 will not work with any of the SDK tools, so not useful for FSX. For FS9, you can possibly use the X-files for basic scnery objects via MakeMdl

If you Mean 3dsMax 9 (a completely different version!) then you are fine for FSX.

Now..... Maps

It is easier to think of Mapping as being a series of points and how they relate to the texture. They are not stored in the texture file, so it makes no sense to say that they are "lost" when the texture file goes through Photoshop.

UVW coordinates are values between 0.0 and 1.0 ... and therefore relative to Texture resolution. They are stored in your Max file, and later your compiled geometry (MDL file). What you are doing is moving things on the texture ... so the mapping no longer correlates with them.


So a sequence for mapping?

You can do things in many ways ..

eg Make known geometry
Create mapping
Create texture to fit template.

In reality ... I tend to do the following:

1) Make geometry (no textures / specific maps ... unless I am making shapes that are automatically mapped such as lofts)

2) Construct Textures .. based on what I know I'll need to map the geometry that I made in step 1. For scenery objects .. these are typically 1024 x 1024 with mipmaps.

3) Create FSX materials based on my textures.

4) Map to my known texture to the geometry (in Max) ... using the sequence of Select (parts, or subparts/polygons), Apply Mapping, Unwrap and refine.

5) tidy up errors / omissions in textures (repeat 2 - 4)

For performance there are other design criteria ... but that is the basic schema.

 

[noob24]

im useing FSX and 3dsmax 9

what i meant when i said coordinates are lost is that i can open up my uvw template in photo shop edit the map how i like except to move the unwrapped shapes around or resize them. as long as i dont do that i can save the file as say a photoshop extension and then re apply the sheet to the same object in max and the mapping will remain as it was origionally fitting correctly to the geometery from which it was unwrapped. but if i resize the individual parts or move them on the sheet in photoshop and then re apply in max the mapping is all wrong and placed incorrectly this is what i mean by the uvw mapping being lost after editing in photoshop. so if i cant resize or move objects around to fit nicely in photoshop and use the space efficiantly how do i create the map?

how does it know how to map correctly if its just a texture map? particullaly if it been altered and is now a different file type ?

how does max know how to map this newly created texture map/ file to the object? but it does .

If i take a complex aircraft like the pmdg747 for example.

how would the texture maps have been created? they are very densly packed almost no space between objects in places. how was this done? was is manipulated in photoshop to achieve this say in layers one texture object at a time and placed to fit with all the other textures on the texture map there or was is all done in one go inside max in the uvw unwrap editor and manipulated there? ie select all the objects or polys in one go in max and unwrap them all to one uvw template using the editor then move them all around so they all fit in efficiantly then save uvw template to photoshop already layed out and then add the textures you want in photoshop to all the parts? How does max know how to correctly map all these hundreds of textures unless the mapping was all done in max in the first place and not photoshop. does max recognise the shape of the objects or the name of the file or what?

 

[hcornea]

Max simply reloads the file (of the same name) into the map preview. Nothing magic there.

If you move / resize the parts then they no longer match the mapping stored in your Max file.

You need to re-UVWmap them in Max .. typically this is achieved using a UVW Unwrap modifier and scaling / moving the vertices as required. Max has no way of knowing that you have moved the texture about - it simply applies the same mapping that is in its file.

The texture is JUST a picture .. the coordinates are not saved within it.

I think the "Map" terminology is confusing: UVW mapping is not "stored" in the "map" at all. The "Map" as displayed in a Max material is a texture preview, that you can apply mapping over.

With regard to the PMDG example, the textures are painstakingly created (I'd imagine by hand using Photoshop or similar) to squeeze as much in as possible. Max does have a render to texture option, which can apply new mapping also, but this doesn't seem to be very space efficient in my experience.

 

[noob24]

ok so in the case of the pmdg maps they must start in max to get the correct shapes surely. If you have a complex shaped piece of geometery that you need to paint a textureto then to start with the basic correct shape would surely be better than just guessing blind in photoshop the shape and then hoping that it will wrap nicely to the geopetery in max whan applied.
They must be unwrapped in max to a template right. or are you suggesting they start in photoshop no unwrapping?

If so then how do you assign the individual parts from the map made in photoshop to the individual corrasponding geometery in max? You cannot apply just a shape from a mipmap to a perticular selection of polygons you can only apply the whole mipmap to a selection of polygons in max and then manipulate using remapping . now i cant see how you can do this from a mipmap containing hundreds of tiny parts, or is this how its done?

do you see what i mean and why im confused as to how exactly? I still cant see how its done sorry if im being thick what am i missing here?


also in addition in the pmdg example i can clearly see that some of the textures in the vc (main i panel & over head & ped) are actually the 2d panel maps placed on a multi mipmap with all the other textures. so in these cases how are these particular textures applied in max to the geometery. how for example is the pedestal texture selected from the multimipmap and applied to just the pedestal polygons on the vc? was the whole mimpap applied to the ped and then manipulated so that only the ped texture filled the selection or is there another way to do this. Max would not know what is on the mipmap because it was created in photoshop show how is the pedestal texture applied to the geometery on its own ?
Or was the ped texture applied to the ped in max from its individual source from photoshop perhaps along with all the other textures in the same way then all textures were rendered to texture on to one mipmap and placed right there in max producing a complete multi mip map directly in max?
you mention using a UVW Unwrap modifier and scaling / moving the vertices as required but you may not want to move or adjust your geometery if its already as you want it just to fit the texture you have made for it which is why i would have thought unwrapping the origional geometery would ensure that the texture shapes will fit correctly when re applying with uvw unwrap etc etc except in the case of sections like the ped and M I Panel that had already made 2d panel textures ready and correct dimensions to apply.

 

[n4gix]

Not to sound flippant, but you are asking questions about advanced calculus while you're still struggling with basic arithmetic...

When you UVW Map an object such as a fuselage for example, it's like taking a picture of the mesh. When you use the UVW Editor's tools to save a mesh template, you've created a "photograph" of that picture.

If you use that new "photograph" as the Diffuse Color image in Max/GMax, when you next open the UVW Editor you will see the image of the fuselage mesh, and can then place newly UVW Mapped mesh images on the template, using the "empty spaces" remaining.

As you UVW Map new objects and place their mesh images on the template, eventually you will have packed as much as possible onto that one template.

It's an iterative process: you simply keep adding new stuff to the template until it's as full as possible.

 

[hcornea]

..... If you have a complex shaped piece of geometery that you need to paint a textureto then to start with the basic correct shape would surely be better than just guessing blind in photoshop the shape and then hoping that it will wrap nicely to the geopetery in max whan applied.
They must be unwrapped in max to a template right. or are you suggesting they start in photoshop no unwrapping?....

No ... that's not what I'm suggesting (see steps 1 to 5 above). Depending on the part you may choose to create a template or auto-unwrap (the choice and technique is yours!) Most people would create the geometry first (step 1), then create the texture.

..... You cannot apply just a shape from a mipmap to a perticular selection of polygons .....

do you see what i mean and why im confused as to how exactly? I still cant see how its done sorry if im being thick what am i missing here?
.....

Careful with throwing about terms .... I find it difficult to understand what you mean. As an example the first sentence quoted above is non-sensical .... so I can only guess exactly what you mean.

As per the iterative idea ... see steps 1-5 above.

It sounds as though you need to start with something simple to get the "process" then work from there to establish a workflow that you understand / best suits you.

 

[noob24]

thanks and no im not trying to run before i can walk but just trying to get my head around this process as i have read and seen so many different ways and tried endlessly to do it without sucessthat i just needed to get a clear consise explaination of it all its the only way i can understand it, and as i have access to pmdg 747 this was an ideal example to understand . advanced as it may be.

thanks for your explainations all

 

[hcornea]

Bill Womack's example of mapping a house object is much simpler .. and easier to follow.

Complex aircraft have complex shaped parts, which require more tricks ...

Like everything ... start simple, and work your way up.

Can't start out in the Premier League on your first game.

 

[noob24]

Not to sound flippant, but you are asking questions about advanced calculus while you're still struggling with basic arithmetic...

When you UVW Map an object such as a fuselage for example, it's like taking a picture of the mesh. When you use the UVW Editor's tools to save a mesh template, you've created a "photograph" of that picture.

If you use that new "photograph" as the Diffuse Color image in Max/GMax, when you next open the UVW Editor you will see the image of the fuselage mesh, and can then place newly UVW Mapped mesh images on the template, using the "empty spaces" remaining.

As you UVW Map new objects and place their mesh images on the template, eventually you will have packed as much as possible onto that one template.

It's an iterative process: you simply keep adding new stuff to the template until it's as full as possible.

this is what i was trying to establish really weather the texture map was organised/ arranged in max or done in photshop. and from your explaination i think i understand that you do all the arrangement of the meshes in max uvw editer untill it is full with no spaces ( and not in photoshop) then you can save your completed mesh template and open in photoshop to add the individual textures to each mesh shape.

 

[n4gix]

this is what i was trying to establish really weather the texture map was organised/ arranged in max or done in photshop. and from your explaination i think i understand that you do all the arrangement of the meshes in max uvw editer untill it is full with no spaces ( and not in photoshop) then you can save your completed mesh template and open in photoshop to add the individual textures to each mesh shape.

That's mostly correct. As I said though, it is an iterative process...

...you keep exporting a new mesh template (photograph) after placing a new mesh object's unwrapped mesh as you finish placement...

...so when you do the next part, you can SEE everything you've already placed, and will now where you have "empty space" for the next part.

The reason why there are so many different methods described in the various tutorials is quite simple:

There are as many ways to do the task as there are people DOING the tasks! Each modeler will find his/her own preferred workflow, techniques, and tricks.

 

[noob24]

No ... that's not what I'm suggesting (see steps 1 to 5 above). Depending on the part you may choose to create a template or auto-unwrap (the choice and technique is yours!) Most people would create the geometry first (step 1), then create the texture.




Careful with throwing about terms .... I find it difficult to understand what you mean. As an example the first sentence quoted above is non-sensical .... so I can only guess exactly what you mean.

As per the iterative idea ... see steps 1-5 above.

It sounds as though you need to start with something simple to get the "process" then work from there to establish a workflow that you understand / best suits you.

sorry my explaination was unclear, what i meant was if the texture map was created in photoshop and not the result of unwrapping the meshes in max but rather composed from other sources from scratch then when applied in max , max would have no reference to match it to as it was never part of the scene. so i was asking in this case how you apply all the hundreds of individual parts to each surface. for example if you wanted to apply the pedestal texture from the mip map to the pedestal surface in the vc how do you isolate just the ped texture from all the other tiny textures on the sheet? I can understand if the map was unwrapped in max origionally using the method bill described here then this process would be automatc as max would already have the mapping coordinates.

 

[n4gix]

Okay, in an attempt to clear up any confusion, there are two basic techniques that you've brought up that are complete opposites!

1. Texture to the Model:
create UVW Maps, generate a mesh template, paint the artwork.

2. Model to the Texture:
create your artwork, then UVW Map the parts to fit the existing texture.

In actual practice I use both techniques depending on what I determine to be the easiest approach. If I have good source photos I can use, I'll typically use technique #2. A good example might be a building for which I have good photos for the front, sides, and back.

 

[noob24]

yes this makes sense thanks

so in the case of the pmdg mip ped and overhead these clearly already existed as were used in the 2d panels. so their shapes were never the result of unwrapping hense they were placed on the texture map in photoshop amongst(or in the empty spaces remaining) the other textures on the sheet. So these three items had no mapping coords in max so had to be physicall mapped by hand to the appropriate surfaces from the texture sheet. and it was this process that i wanted to understand and how these textures are isolated amongst all the others and mapped to the correct polygons. I am assuming its just a case of re mapping uvw unwrap and manipulating the mip so that the selected texture align with the correct surface.

Oh and if your entire texture map is "model to texture" the you have to uvw map each and every individual texture to the correct surface on your model. and repeat over and over again for each texture on the sheet by applying the whole texture sheet and manipulating it for each texture respectivly.
In effect though if you use this method have you not then applied the same texture map say 50 times if you have 50 textures on it. and are you not also applying a far larger map each time than it needs to be bcasue you are applying the whole map( or should i say max/fsx is having to read the whole map each time) when you only want to use a tiny part of it each time even though you dont see the surrounding parts. where as with the uvw method its all done in one go with one sheet with the correct coordinates selecting the correct textures?

 

[n4gix]

"mip*" Please remove that word from your vocabulary when discussing this subject. It has zero meaning in the context of UVW Mapping, Unwrapping, etc.

If you have artwork already prepared (your PMDG overhead for example), then the task is to create the mesh and then UVW Map it to fit the overhead.

*mip = The most popular approach to minification is to create mipmaps for each texture. A mipmap is a pre-shrunk texture, normally half the size of the original. The mipmap itself then gets mipmapped, and this process continues until a 1x1 texture is created. This is the final mipmap for the texture. You can think of mipmaps as a chain, starting with the original texture and becoming smaller and smaller until the 1 texel texture is reached. When minification is needed, first the appropriate mipmapped texture is chosen, then that mipmap is applied to the object, with real-time texture filtering if needed. The default Texture processor for the Content Pipeline has an option to generate mipmaps automatically.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb976075(v=xnagamestudio.31).aspx

 

[noob24]

"mip*" Please remove that word from your vocabulary when discussing this subject. It has zero meaning in the context of UVW Mapping, Unwrapping, etc.

If you have artwork already prepared (your PMDG overhead for example), then the task is to create the mesh and then UVW Map it to fit the overhead.

*mip = The most popular approach to minification is to create mipmaps for each texture. A mipmap is a pre-shrunk texture, normally half the size of the original. The mipmap itself then gets mipmapped, and this process continues until a 1x1 texture is created. This is the final mipmap for the texture. You can think of mipmaps as a chain, starting with the original texture and becoming smaller and smaller until the 1 texel texture is reached. When minification is needed, first the appropriate mipmapped texture is chosen, then that mipmap is applied to the object, with real-time texture filtering if needed. The default Texture processor for the Content Pipeline has an option to generate mipmaps automatically.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb976075(v=xnagamestudio.31).aspx

i may have misused this term its true further up in this thread but i think i was referring to MIP Main Instrument Panel in this particular case as was referring to the pmdg MIP 2d main instrument panel as used in the vc

 

[n4gix]

i may have misused this term its true further up in this thread but i think i was referring to MIP Main Instrument Panel in this particular case as was referring to the pmdg MIP 2d main instrument panel as used in the vc

Ah, I see. Then it's even more important than ever to be explicit, since some terms have a very common meaning when discussing textures and UVW Mapping...

 

[noob24]

yes appologies my poor brain is fried now


thanks again alot of us owe you big time im not sure if this site would run any longer or fs its self without your dedication to helping us all here

 

[Heretic]

My best friends in Max 9's UVW Unwrapper are "Normal Mapping" and "Render UVW Texture".

The former function creates a highly accurate projection of your object from top/down or left/right or front/back, the latter function creates an image from that projection ready for import in GIMP/PS/PSP/P.net for further processing.


My usual workflow is:

1.) Create a FSX-compilant material with a simple, single colored 2048*2048 px diffuse map (.psd format for maximum convenience).

2.) Assign the material to the first object to be textured (let's say the fuselage)

3.) Use a "UVW Map" modifier on the object with any setting. It's probably a redundant step, but I take it nonetheless.

4.) Either select relevant parts to be unwrapped via "edit mesh" or "edit poly" or

5.) Add a "Unwrap UVW" modifier to the stack and enter the editor.

6.) By default, the editor should be in "vertex" mode. I select "poly" mode from the controls below and select everything.

7.) Then it's "Tools -> Normal Mapping" time. The settings to choose (which side to render from) depend on the orientation of the part's pivot point, but you can try multiple times to find a useful solution. In any case, untick "rotate clusters" that setting just makes things unnecessarily difficult.

8.) The result should be a perfect projection of your part. Now try to fit it onto the bitmap (or the thickly outlined blue frame) for a start.

Hint: Always use uniform scaling on both parts of the projections if you need to scale your parts. Moving or mirroring can be done independently for each part, but anything that's related to sizing has to be done for both sides as once. There's nothing worse than a pattern of stripes that doesn't line up properly in the nose or tail area of a fuselage!
Also, having both parts in exactly the same scale makes paining patterns and liveries a lot easier later on as you can just mirror the left side texture and fit it to the right side with little to no scaling or further adjustment!

9.) Once you're done fitting the UVW Maps of your fuselage or other part to the texture or within the image boundaries, use "Render UVW Texture".
You'll be presented with a settings dialog. It's of utmost importance that you select "2048" for X and Y size of the texture! Then hit "Render" of "Go" or whatever that button is named and you'll be presented with your mesh on a black texture.
Next, hit "Save" and select "png" als output format as it convienently regards all the black parts of the texture as transparent, which makes magic wand selection of your wireframe elements much easier.
Go for a 100% quality setting and save the image somewhere.

10.) So much for the part in Max. Now it's image editing time.

11.) Open your master texture file in your image editor (I use GIMP) and import the freshly saved .png of the UVW map as a layer. Put it right above the background layer and create a new layer for the base color on top of it.

12.) Go back to the layer with the wireframe and use the Magic Wand on the black parts. Invert the selection and you should now have the outline of your part selected. Grow the selection by 2 to 3 pixels to create a "safety zone" so that the polygons at the edge get their colors as well.

13.) Change to your base color layer with the selection still intact and fill the selection with a simple base color (a highly visible one if so desired).
Deselect everything and save the .psd.
Change back to 3DS Max and you should now be able to marvel at your high-viz colored fuselage (or whatever part you've just textured), as Max has real-time texture file reading capabilities.
If not, you need to reload the texture map in the material editor.

14.) UVW map other parts with the same scheme.
As the texture map fills up, you can unify the wireframe layers in your main texture file to a single one containing every part. But leave them in, as they are a great and highly accurate (+/- 1 to 2 pixels) reference for third party painters!

So much for the basic procedure. I didn't cover everything, but it should get you started. Don't hesitate to play around with the UVW editor a bit, since it's a VERY convenient tool for those lucky enough to have 3DS Max!

If you want an example for a FSX aircraft created in Max, check out the source files for my Do-328 (link's in my signature).

 

[hairyspin]

A useful outline Bjoern, thanks!