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FSX Problem with Color or Texture Blending

Will you elaborate on what you mean by "using polygon colors." Do you mean I'm using the wrong colors, the wrong tools, or what?
There are two accepted means of visually defining the face of a polygon. The first method involves assigning a color to the polygon, i.e. "polygon colors," the second method involves mapping the coordinates of the polygon onto a texture image.




Are you saying that using the RGB values is the wrong tool? I was using the RGBs to set a particular colors.
I am not saying RGB registered polygon colors are wrong to use. Polygon colors have a limited ability to display realistic representations of real world objects because the human eye can distinctly see each of the 16777216 colors in the RGB register. That means real world situations like shadows and fades are impossible to display with RGB color, suggesting the alternative will provide a better representation.


I've done that in other sceneries that looked realistic. I seems like this is going to mean much more time and work in making good textures. I didn't realize that there was more involved than to color or texture a model. So, does this mean that all developers that texture an airport scenery have to do all this work to make their textures look right? If that's the case, I need to learn how to do it. Isn't there a tutorial in Sketchup that explains in detail how to properly shade and bake textures?

Sketchup software has no AO function and certainly no ability to bake to texture. All of the AO plug-in's or extensions will have documentation how to use them. There is no tutorial that I know of. After reading suggestions of the possibility here on this forum, I developed my own technique that works quite well for me and I've already shared the procedure above, which you are welcome to use and develop further.
 
http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/problem-with-color-or-texture-blending.441296/#post-783858

Hi Gary,

In the Material Editor in MCX, there's a tab that says Optimize, showing the Property on the left with green on the left and red on the right.

Some of them say False and some say True.

Under Property are colors and textures and say Double Sided.

What does all of this mean and how to I know which color to choose, and how do I know rather to select true or false, or "use left value or use right value?

Ken.

I would recommend that you NOT attempt changing any settings for a 3D model imported into MCX, from that "Optimize" dialog. :alert:


FYI: Those attributes for texture mapping onto the geometry of a 3D model are best assigned and/or changed within ex: Sketchup:

* during modeling

* during export as a particular 3D model file format


In the case of this discussion for your 3D model of KPVD terminal, you were asked to export as a KMZ.

This means that rather than using the Collada *.DAE "Export" selection, you used a KMZ file format (KMZ contains a *.DAE in a ZIP)


The unique settings for Export of 3D file format types and pertinent modeling attributes are accessed via:

Sketchup Menu > File > Export > [Options] button


Export of a Collada *.DAE file (which is NOT packaged in a ZIP *.KMZ) offers a number of 'Options'.

Export of a Collada *.DAE file (which IS packaged in a ZIP *.KMZ) offers offer only 2 'Options'.


NOTE: Caveats and work-arounds for issues regarding geometry for a Face being 'single-sided' or 'double-sided' when Exported as KMZ versus a Collada *.DAE file (which is NOT packaged in a ZIP *.KMZ), are discussed here:

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/dae-vs-kmz.261266/


AFAIK, a 3D model is intended to be Exported exactly as displayed in Sketchup's work-space when KMZ file format is used.


So, if your 3D model is displayed as you want it to be in Sketchup, those attributes will be properly retained during KMZ Export.


BTW: Attributes for Sketchup 3D models retained during Export as a Collada *.DAE (and/or a KMZ ZIP-packaged Collada *.DAE) includes unique "Normal" vectors for all 'Front' or 'Reverse' Faces, as well as those used for "Smoothing Groups", and regardless of whether geometry for a Face is 'single-sided' or 'double-sided'. ;)


Attributes for Sketchup 3D models retained during Export as a Collada *.DAE (and/or a KMZ ZIP-packaged Collada *.DAE) also includes all 'color' RGBA data associated with Materials, regardless of whether a mapped Material is a "Texture" -or- default "Color". :pushpin:

https://forums.sketchup.com/t/model-exports-without-textures/28758/6


MCX retains all those features utilized / assigned by a user within a 3D model Exported as a KMZ file format ...during KMZ 'import'.


When MCX 'exports' such a 3D model, the FSX and/or P3D XtoMDL compilers will also retain the features utilized / assigned by a Sketchup user in the resulting output MDL


AFAIK, all those features utilized / assigned by a Sketchup user within a 3D model Imported by MCX, then Exported by MCX, are rendered by FSX and/or P3D at run time.


IMHO, you need not concern yourself with changing any MCX Material Editor Texture 'Property' settings in the "Optimize" dialog.


Hope this helps ! :)

GaryGB
 
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I would recommend that you NOT attempt changing any settings for a 3D model imported into MCX, from that "Optimize" dialog.
:confused: The optimize window is an attempt to reduce draw calls by matching material attributes to the texture. In two simple examples, you may have a mapped texture of an automobile. Now the polygons of the transparent windshield may very likely have different material attributes from the body, namely attributes that make the polygons transparent. In that situation you would chose neither pane. The green one would probably be set default opaque and the pink one would be set default transparent; if you selected either, all polygons would be assigned that attribute.
In another example, let's say you exported your propeller to FSDS to animate it. When you join your propeller animation to the main model, you will see that FSDS has applied some slightly different material attributes to your model. So even though your texture covers the whole model, including the propeller, you now have two draw calls, instead of one. In this circumstance, you would want to select the green pane, the pink pane would have the material attributes that FSDS had assigned. There is probably nothing wrong with the FSDS material attributes, you could just as easily run with them.

Finally, like many of the wonderful tools Arno provides, the optimize window is a short cut. You will really want to learn all these attributes, what they mean and do, experiment with them! Because then you will see the differences in the materials attribute window itself, where you should have your nose and pardon the joke:rotfl:and you will not need the broad sweeping crutch of the one-or-the-other attributes matching and I should say it also does multiple reductions, in other words, if a texture has several different attributes, it will allow you the option of combining them in pairs and each time you load the window you will see new options as a result of any selections.
 
:confused: The optimize window is an attempt to reduce draw calls by matching material attributes to the texture.

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the information. I do recall that the Optimized Tab had something to do with drawcalls because I watched one of Arno's videos discussing that. He didn't go into details about it but that's where I got the intell. It may take me awhile to understand what it's about. If I mess with them in MCX, I'm not going to compile it to FSX until I better understand it. I just wanted to understand more about it what it does and knowing rather to choose the green or the red. It's just something I'm curious about and want to better understand. But I probably don't have much use for it.

By the way, when ya'll say mapped textures, does that only apply to photo textures, such as New Match Photos in Sketchup, or does it also apply to textures and images? I'm thinking that mapped textures is when you apply a photo to a face, as one would do in Sketchup.


In two simple examples, you may have a mapped texture of an automobile. Now the polygons of the transparent windshield may very likely have different material attributes from the body, namely attributes that make the polygons transparent. In that situation you would chose neither pane. The green one would probably be set default opaque and the pink one would be set default transparent; if you selected either, all polygons would be assigned that attribute.

Okay, so you mean that if you choose either one, the windshield would be either fully opaque or fully transparent.

But what's this True and False all about that show up in those colors? After looking over that, I've noticed under "Property," there are textures that say "Double Sided." I think y'all used that word several times and correct me if I'm wrong. Does double side mean that there are textures on both sides of a face? And does that False and True have something to do with selecting which side of the face is true or false?


In another example, let's say you exported your propeller to FSDS to animate it. When you join your propeller animation to the main model, you will see that FSDS has applied some slightly different material attributes to your model. So even though your texture covers the whole model, including the propeller, you now have two draw calls, instead of one. In this circumstance, you would want to select the green pane, the pink pane would have the material attributes that FSDS had assigned.

But how do I know that I would want to select the green rather than the pink? The green and pink colors must mean something as well as the True and False.


Finally, like many of the wonderful tools Arno provides, the optimize window is a short cut. You will really want to learn all these attributes, what they mean and do, experiment with them! Because then you will see the differences in the materials attribute window itself, where you should have your nose and pardon the joke:rotfl:and you will not need the broad sweeping crutch of the one-or-the-other attributes matching and I should say it also does multiple reductions, in other words, if a texture has several different attributes, it will allow you the option of combining them in pairs and each time you load the window you will see new options as a result of any selections.

What would be some good textures I could use to experiment with using the Optimize Tab? And by the way, when ya'll say "attributes, such as a texture has several different attributes, what do y'all mean by that? The dictionary really doesn't seem to explain that.


Ken.
 
Hi Rick,
Thanks for the information. I do recall that the Optimized Tab had something to do with drawcalls because I watched one of Arno's videos discussing that. He didn't go into details about it but that's where I got the intell. It may take me awhile to understand what it's about. If I mess with them in MCX, I'm not going to compile it to FSX until I better understand it.
Ken, you are not going to understand the thing until you use it. Please do us a favor and think for yourself, do you see anyone else screaming in big red letters to not do something without knowing or saying why???????

Play with it, learn it, the absolute worst thing that can happen is that your model will be too shiny, or the windows will be too pink - what, pink windows, you don't believe me? No, ken, you can make that mirrored sunglass look, you know, when the glass is almost clear, slightly green (any color) and then when it gets a flash of sun it is a bright green streak. To explore this feature, you will want to work with pure polygon color - it is easier to see and understand this way - you will want the polygons to be able to be clear or translucent and you will want to play with the Material Editor Colors. In fact, this is great stuff and it is my hope we can all take a few minutes to learn why it is ok to play with material attributes. When you first import your model, it's material attributes will be those assigned by the modelling software. In the image below, the ambient color value will match the polygon color the model currently has. All three values are 204 and we can see it is a light bluish gray color.

ovqO8zU.jpg


You can change those numbers and the model color will change to conform. You can click on one of the boxes and set a custom specific color, which MCX will store for your forever use in one of the spare boxes below. Alternatively, you may select from a range of preconfigured colors like burnt sienna by selecting either the web or system tab.

Ok, so now we are quite comfortable selecting any one of the 16 million plus colors available and applying those to our polygons. Take a look at the little blue slider to the right of the color palette. The top represents full opacity and that value is not added to the three RGB values that define color. If you move the slider slightly and close the drop down window, you will see a fourth value has been added to the RGB field. Zero is full transparency and 255 is full opacity and you are free to assign any value in between. Here are two examples of transparent colored polygons:

LnhENYW.jpg


DQ3AAvS.jpg


Note that in real life, two panels of the control tower are opaque to protect the controllers from sun glare and we are able to reproduce that with this technique.

Now we go into a little more detail. Please refer to the color palette image above. You can see that I am discussing "ambient" color, but the field that is selected is "specular." Specular controls the shininess. Ambient is the normal color of your model, the color assigned by your modelling software. 255,255,255 is pure white. Back to specular, Your model above has a specular value of 0. You don't ever want to do that intentionally, imo, except maybe in a smoke stack funnel or something. Specular zero is the black hole of highlights and no virtual light escapes it. Even for military "non" reflective paint I use a specular value of 20.
Now let's play with those values even more. So far we have been using all three as the same, maybe adding a fourth as a little translucence. We already know what changing those numbers in relation to each other does to ambient color. Any guesses as to it's effect on shine? Yep, you can have blue, or gold or whatever color sun glints. Try black, that's really weird.

___________

There was no tutorial for these discoveries, no documentation I could find anywhere and I searched. There is none really necessary. It is all very straightforward, Arno is a wizard himself in how he lay's out these menu's and window's and it's all fairly self explanatory. What isn't self explanatory is consistent with the RGB tables with simple intuitive extensions. I like simple.

Ok, I think that about covers it for the material attributes and now here's the bad news. We have already discussed the advantages of mapped textures over polygon colors, material attributes are trumped by any texture assigned to that field:

dMMhs8o.jpg

___________


I didn't really want to go into the differences between polygon color and mapped textures, but I can see it might be expedient. Let's use the example of some tanks and stuff, because I like to model those, as part of my plans for global dominion. Just kidding, I love to model them. Just kidding again. :)

Here's the big bad DF-21 that changed global policy. They were so proud of it in fact, that an overzealous spot light blasted the thing with a glaring contrast. The gaffer probably got sent to a reeducation camp to make Christmas ornaments. You can see the effects just aft of the cab:

getpubliccontent


Here is the texture:

jT5YQY7.jpg


This is a model with a photographic texture mapped directly to it. Now you may suspect that it would be impossible to do with only the one photograph and you would probably be right. This model is composed of several textures, but they were not required.

Here is a photo textured model where the photo was edited extensively to facilitate projecting onto the model. It also, incidentally, contains tinted translucent polygons:

getpubliccontent


Now look carefully at the tail numbers. This is a trick I developed myself, to avoid the reversed characters that result from projecting photographic textures. I won't describe the process, but everything is there and you can download the model from my warehouse and explore yourself, I encourage you to.
;)

Now I will explain a little bit how mapped textures can substitute for polygon color. In the image above, there is a LOT of unused real estate. Would it not make sense to add every part, indeed every color to some portion of the texture sheet, so that I could move it, expand it and color every polygon exactly as I please? Kind of like this:

T16EVja.jpg


In order to create this:

X9LdTEa.jpg


You may notice some details are missing like the tail lights or the varmint sticker, I use layered photoshop textures for simplicity and those particular layers were switched off for the screen capture.


I need to say this about optimizing, by and large, ignore it. It does not help you learn attributes, it applies attributes, without explaining them, that you need to know the meaning of before applying them. What it considers green is arbitrary, based on a probability algorithm. It is YOUR model, you know what YOUR green is, learn it and stick to it. I never use the optimizer as my main tool because it adds work, it does not remove it. Bottom like is that there is no one size fits all, no ideal attribute and the implication that the optimizer will establish this is false. Please reread this paragraph:

Finally, like many of the wonderful tools Arno provides, the optimize window is a short cut. You will really want to learn all these attributes, what they mean and do, experiment with them! Because then you will see the differences in the materials attribute window itself, where you should have your nose and pardon the joke:rotfl:and you will not need the broad sweeping crutch of the one-or-the-other attributes matching.

Now that we have learned about defining polygons, let's expand on this. We already know the render is limited and it is burdened by both draw calls and polygon count. Because of this, we only define polygons that are seen, untextured/uncolored polygons do not render. If we create a cylinder, the interior should be transparent in order to conserve render resources for other visible areas. A glitch of the simulator removes visibility of ALL defined polygons behind an untextured polygon. If you took that same cylinder and added a window of colored or textured polygons, the inside would remain invisible and so would any model behind those invisible polygons. This could be a problem in the case of an airplane canopy connected to an untextured interior. The easy solution would be to texture the interior, however that would add many hundreds of polygons to the render that aren't really seen. How might you solve it?
 
Ken, you are not going to understand the thing until you use it. Please do us a favor and think for yourself, do you see anyone else screaming in big red letters to not do something without knowing or saying why???????

Hi Rick,

Where do you get that I'm not thinking for myself and that I'm using big red letters, unless you're just using a phrase? I wasn't necessarily saying that I would not try out and experiment with them. What I meant was that I didn't think it would be necessary to export them into FSX if I can see their effects in MCX, and it seems to me that one should see the effects in MCX before exporting them into FSX. For example, by selecting a particular texture on the left side of the Material Editor with the Property Tab selected, I was able to make changes to the colors by changing the RGB values of the box that says "Diffuse Color" and I could see the different colors in MCX. But you mentioned that Specular Color controls the shine and when I made changes to the RGB values in the Specular Box, I did not see any change in shininess. And regarding the level of opacity and transparent, I did not see any changes in that. So, that brings up this question. When I make changes and experiment with the things you talked about, am I suppose to see the changes in MCX?

There's one thing you also said that I don't understand. You said that my model has a specular value of 0. I'm not showing that. On my model, I'm showing all 3 values of 102 for the Specular Colors. I assume this is the box you're referring to.

Ken.
 
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The big red letters were from another post in the thread, the author of which has not yet informed us why using the optimize tool is not recommended. you are correct about the specular value, I was mistaken. 102 should be the default value for Sketchup models.

Herei s a model with a high specular value of 255,255,255 and a low value of 20,20,20. It seems pretty obvious from here.

O0f3E1N.jpg
5OkcMXh.jpg


Similarly, here is the same model with high diffuse opacity and low diffuse opacity. You can see the values in the table to the right. However above I implied that the ambient field controls opacity, that is not true, the diffuse field does as shown in the images.

JoDnfOH.jpg

MV14PBW.jpg


You should understand that the MCX rende is not he simulator render. It is very close but that software is proprietary and undisclosed and Arno has done his best and a very good job of reproducing it. The differences are most apparent in the effects tool. So ye, you should always text models in the sim they are intended for. Animations usually play backwards in MCX from how they run in the simulator.
 
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