What's the most sensible tool

[CBris]

I'm a real world helicopter and small aircraft tech first. I know helis and real planes (anything with one prop or less) and I also know how to maintain them - even unto doing things such as weight and balance, vibration testing and performance analysis...

So, I keep saying to myself that I should stop picking holes in everyone else's work until I've walked a mile in their shoes. So I think it's time I tried.

3DS Max is horrendously expensive! So what's the best tool to build a 3D Model for FSX? And even if you do say 3DS Max... (anyone got a copy they don't want?)

What tools can I use? Are we limited to FSDS, GMax and 3DS Max only? Are there other tools that may be used? I am no slouch at 2D artwork and I'd like to be able to draw 2D and "lift" the relevant points up into a 3D model... There is something daunting about the GMax interface that is somewhat confusing to a logical thinker like me.

Suggestions?

 

[n4gix]

What tools can I use? Are we limited to FSDS, GMax and 3DS Max only? Are there other tools that may be used? I am no slouch at 2D artwork and I'd like to be able to draw 2D and "lift" the relevant points up into a 3D model... There is something daunting about the GMax interface that is somewhat confusing to a logical thinker like me.

Actually, what you've described is pretty much how one builds in GMax (which is very much more than adequate to the task.

We create planar (2d) backdrops with the three-view of what we're wanting to model. My favorite method is to create a line of splines with the number of vertex points that I wish to use, then use the select & move tool to pull them into the desired curve(s) for the fuselage body, for example.

Although the GUI for GMax is rather crowded, understand that you really need a relative handful for 99% of the work you need to do. The rest could easily be "hidden" from sight with a bit of Preferences configuration.

Of course, the tool you choose to use ultimately depends on just what you want to model: scenery or aircraft. If scenery only, then Google's Sketchup might just serve your needs.

If however, you wish to model aircraft, then I would think the primary concern should be ensuring that the program you choose have an easy and supported export path that will allow you to use FSX Material, skinned-boned animations, and other advanced sim-controlled animations. It serves no purpose whatever to build an excellent model only to discover that there's no way to actually get it into the sim!

 

[lionheart]

Also, good luck in finding the 'right' Max.

Seems you can only use Max 7 thru 9, and 'maybe' Max 2008.

All the rest will 'not' work for being able to export planes to FSX, and Autodesk does not and will not sell older versions of Max no matter how much you beg and plea to them. (look on Ebay for people selling sealed packs of old versions, never used before, and 'not' the student versions).

I recommend Gmax..

 

[CBris]

Splines...

I know what you mean... I think, but as a mechanic, a spline for me is something mechanical - i.e. that thin strip of whatever that keys two pieces together. Who dared mess with my language over the years?

If I google "spline" I get all these weird things that have nothing to do with the splines of my youth. But ever since I started with Corel, I know what they are, even if I don't call them such.

So I take it the "Max" tools and FSDS are the only ones that can actually export a model to FSX? Well, we shall see what I can do or not. The urge is slowly increasing.

Another thing that confuses is that I keep reading various comments that GMax can't do everything. It can't bump or specular or shine "properly". Or is that just hokum from those who want to sell a product? I remember dabbling with GMax once a couple or three years ago and making a "head". Trouble was, it kept crashing on my PC or losing data and settings.

And besides - the "P38 Lightning" lesson worked well enough, but the detail was so yucky from the three views provided that I was easily disappointed.

I know - perseverance! Maybe I was not hungry enough or maybe I just wanted to sprint first.

Of course, thanks for the encouraging words.

 

[n4gix]

Chris, all I can say is this:

I have Max5, Max8, Max9 and GMax v1.2 installed. Which do you think I use the most for FS aircraft and/or scenery modeling?

Max5 - I have to use the freeware Pandasoft export tool to produce an .X file, which then must be manually edited to "FSify" it into something that MakeMDL.exe (FS8 or FS9 compiler) can recognize.

Max8 - I can use the FSX tools seamlessly to generate the .X file and .xanim file, then run XtoMDL.exe via a batch file to compile an FSX model. To create an FS8 or FS9 model, I have to use the Pandasoft export tool as with Max5 above.

Max9 - With some effort, the FSX SDK tools can be used to generate the required .X and .xanim files, then a batch file invoked to compile an FSX .mdl file. Ibid Max5 and Max8 for FS8 or FS9 .mdl files.

GMax v1.2 - FS8, FS9 and FSX SDK tools are fully integrated and exporting directly to .mdl files are seamless, one-button operations for the most part. Export process for FS8 and FS9 may be intercepted using MiddleMan+ModelCommander to capture .x and/or .asm files, which allows for further 'manual tweaking.' FSX compile process cannot be intercepted, unfortunately.

BTW, the P38 tutorial is fundamentally flawed to begin with. If you follow the instructions faithfully, you will have a model that is backwards in the sim.

 

[lionheart]

A Spline is basically a set of 2 or more Vertices with lines connecting them. Sort of like a pencil line in the 'virtual' 3D world of a design program. A polygon can be created from Splines, and then skinned with a Poly surface 'if' the edges reach full circle with no open edges, (beginning and ending Vertices 'welded' together).

Vertices are the points of a polygon. The computer creates parts from the Vertice coordinates in the computers 'virtual mind world'. It then has info for each Vertice set, such as 'this set has a polygon skin on it, using material 'fuselage-B' and its mapped to 'this' coordinate on the texture.

Polygons are like Aluminum skin. They need 'Edges' and Vertices.

Elements are sub-structures of a object. If you join several parts together, you can access one of the few in 'Element' mode.



I like creating parts from Splines. Its fast. You can make bulkheads, then attach all in order, then create cross sections, then create surfaces. You can also use Lathe to make fantastic shapes from a single Spline.


Very cool tools... Quite simular to machining.. but in the mind of a computer.. virtual machine shop..



Bill

 

[CBris]

Chris, all I can say is this:

I have Max5, Max8, Max9 and GMax v1.2 installed. Which do you think I use the most for FS aircraft and/or scenery modeling?

FSDS ?

Talking of which - is FSDS also worth considering?

As for splines Bill, give me a splined shaft any day Knowing me, I am likely to start with making flat 18 swg panels and rolling them all by hand. At least I understand that kind of shop work.

Question - is it best to make various bits separately and import them later - i.e. build the model out of stock?

Gotta go - to see a man about a cat...

 

[decapod]

There are one or two of us using 3D Canvas Pro 7.1.2.0 ($70) for FS9 and FSX models.
(from www.amabilis.com)
Free trial download with very limited options here:
http://www.3d-canvas.com/downloads/3DCanvas7120.zip
Version 8.1 is the latest, but it is not as stable as 7.1.2 yet.

Example aircraft made entirely using 3D canvas - FSX
http://classicbritishfiles.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=162&func=fileinfo&id=1644

FS9:
http://classicbritishfiles.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=162&func=fileinfo&id=1586
http://classicbritishfiles.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=162&func=fileinfo&id=1637

How the swallow was built:
http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=88061

Tutorials for 3DC & scenery
http://www.scenery.org/tutorials.htm

 

[CBris]

I am impressed indeed - a great set of tips there! And a pretty plane too - one with a bit of character. As for the CBFS stuff - well I never did! You live and learn something new every day!

So there IS a grain you can go against... I like that

 

[FelixFFDS]

FSDS ?

Talking of which - is FSDS also worth considering?.

It's worth considering - if you can't wrap your head around gmax.


although FSDS is a flightsim specific modelling tool, gmax/3DCanvas are more powerful general modelling programs. The benefits that FSDS has over the others may not be enough to overcome the better modelling featurs that gmax, etc. have.

The above, of course, is heresy coming from me, considering that I, lilke others here, am a hard core FSDS user.

The end result, however, is usually the result of the artistry of the modeller rather thatn the tools.

 

[CBris]

Okayyyy...

I am going to give GMax another go. I found a "head" I played with a few years ago - look folks, all my own work (see below)

I think I did this in 2007 somewhen - all I can say is that I know I did it and I know I have forgotten every step of how I got there so I am going to start aaaaalllll over again. As it happens, I was on pills and potions at the time (maybe that helped? )

Now I don't necessarily want minutiae details yet, but a general reminder of how to go about self teaching, i.e. what might be an ideal way to start, which tutorials make good practice and so on.

One thing I do know now - I do need accurate 3views. Having just looked at those backgrounds I used for other practice models I think I can see some flaws in using those blurry backgrounds suggested by the P38 tutorial. Why should I use "blueprint mode" when accurate vector graphic line drawings are so much more accurate? Ah... yes I see... contrast for the GMax view panels - a darker neutral background is more restful...

Which means perhaps that I should also create accurate technical drawings of my models first?

Just thinking aloud folks... Kick me if I get too loud feel free to point me at recommended tuts. Or should I do all the GMax built-in tutorials first?



Some early backgrounds...

 

[lionheart]

You cant know yet how valuable that head making tutorial is... Think of it as a fuselage with scoops and things, the nose is a rudder.

I always make my fuselages in halves. Only when they are nearly done (mesh only) and windows are cut (not detached) do I then mirror the other side and weld them together.


Bill

 

[Vitus]

Don't miss the very most awsomest tutorial (see? my English is getting more betterer each day!) is of course the one by Milton Shupe.

*click, click*

It shows almost every aspect of modeling an aircraft and for everything else use this forum often

And for the drawings - I prefer the detailed stuff. Have a look in the wiki for some links to sites that provide plans.

Cheers,
Vitus

 

[TB111]

Don't miss the very most awsomest tutorial (see? my English is getting more betterer each day!) is of course the one by Milton Shupe.

*click, click*

I second that!

 

[lionheart]

One more to add to that is the famous 'Idiots Guide to Gmax', (must google the location, I think it moved). Brilliant tutorial on making a Luftwaffe prototype jet fighter. Goes through all the steps on making it with pictures.

 

[GaryGB]

When I saw the phrase "Idiot's Guide To GMAX", I thought someone was talking to directly to me !


"The Stupid Idiots' Guide to starting with gMax" by Hugh Shoults is here:

http://www.simviation.com/gryphon/tutorials/gMax_00.htm


BTW: I ran across another thread with a somewhat related title that had some helpful caveats by Fr. Bill on texture naming to avoid confusion:

"IDIOTS GUIDE to bump mapping"

http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1215921219




FYI: I'm already in over my head trying to learn Google Sketchup 7; a very nice GUI with an exceptional ease of workflow.

And with Arno's ModelConverterX making it feasible to get many things into FS from other 3-D file formats, life is good.

http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=87



But I know GMAX is still out there... waiting for me... beckoning with sadistic intent, and laughing the whole time behind its obtuse GUI.


So, slowly I turned, step-by-step, and walked towards it (like a lamb before the slaughter) and knew I'd eventually succumb to its insidiousness.

To Be Continued...


GaryGB

 

[CBris]

Gary, if you think you are going to have problems, then take a look at this self portrait and tell me I don't have any...



OK, that's a profile "outline" thing using several extrusions and chamfers and scalings to reduce the size of each slice as I progress outwards.

Guys, have any of you carved soap, wood or even stone? I'll tell you... real world sculpting is a darn sight easier than this. but seeing as how I am only on day two this time around and never got any further three years ago.... well, I'll guess I will go for some objects next. See how nuts and bolts come out...

Gawd, he's an ugly sucker! Must be related to Bernoulli - he sucks too!

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Chris:

Looks like you're off to a good "Head Start"

And I can see plenty of challenges with doing "realistic" human torsos for FS, I suppose.


I have seen some nice ones in certain packages; for example, I wonder how Joe Binka did the "couple" in his Grumman Widgeon... 'Poser' perhaps ?

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004ac&DLID=103955

...Nice set of spinners too, no ?

BTW: (and not really off-topic IMHO)... I saw a very fascinating program on the History Channel this Easter Sunday afternoon:

The Real Face of Jesus?

http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-face-of-jesus/articles/about-the-shroud-of-turin

http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-face-of-jesus/articles/the-technology

This was an extremely interesting exploration of the history, beliefs, science and technology involved in creating a 3-D model (and eventually a 3D sculture "fast prototype") using data derived from a 2-D image of a crucified man seen in the controversial Shroud of Turin; a highly recommended must-see.

Even after the 1988 splash of publicity "disproving" the shroud's authenticity due to its presumed age, now it seems the initial radio-carbon dating sample had mistakenly been taken from a Medieval re-weaved 'margin' (attached to the original main fabric to replace an area then lost in a fire), so the story still is quite intriguing to many.

The various imaging, graphics data processing and 3-D modeling methods used in studying the best approach to derive the data set used for this rendering was rather captivating !


FYI: There are utilities that allow one to create a 3-D model from tracing multiple fixed-position photographs of a subject (average image sources are from 18 different angles).

No doubt these would yield a highly detailed model that one would have to then simplify greatly to get a 'compatible complexity' for use in an FS aircraft etc.

I don't know if trying them would be easier than your ongoing "sculpting" in order to refine your existing model over time, but a few leads:

http://www.sandyressler.com/about/library/weekly/aa031401a.htm

http://www.d-vw.com/examples/head/human_head.htm

http://www.strata.com/products/strata_3d_cx_suite/strata_foto_3d_cx/tryout/

http://www.photomodeler.com/products/scanner/modeling.htm


These have 3D file exports that might work via a ModelConverterX intermediate 3DS file output to get it into GMAX:

http://www.facegen.com/modeller.htm

http://www.freewaregenius.com/2008/04/30/loomis-faceworx-model-a-3d-head-from-two-2d-images/



I'm not sure if these offer an output to 3D model files we could process in ModelConverterX, but interesting if they could be key-framed in 3DSMAX or GMAX, nonetheless:

http://www.flat2d.com/hexagreat_en.aspx

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/3d/motio...tos-turns-on-internet-dating-world-300795.php

http://www.motionportrait.com/e/about/



These would be interesting for static scenery objects creation at least (Sketchup may do some of this already via "animations")

http://www.webdesign.org/photoshop/3d-effects/2d-image-into-3d-model-using-photoshop.16100.html

http://techcrunch.com/2007/04/15/fotowoosh-will-turn-any-picture-into-3d-image/

http://make3d.cs.cornell.edu/


Oh, and a glimpse into what MS is up to for future online browse-ability (....think we'll see a MS "Virtual World" Flight Sim eventually ?)

http://labs.live.com/




Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[CBris]

Hi Gary - as always: interesting reading! I saw that prog too.

Also... I have done that "model making from photos" thing. You put an object on a turntable, take several to many shots from a low angle and every x degrees turn of the turntable. Repeat "face on" to the turntable and again from high... The more photos, the better the model. But maybe the 20 dollars from turbosquid is an alternative? We shall see.

Oh, aren't those two people from the Wilga crew that was built for FS9 a few years ago?

 

[GaryGB]

Yes, Joe Binka was the main man with that unique "Wilga" bird, IIRC; I haven't looked at the Wilga in years, but were the "couple" in that one as well ?

He keeps a low profile, but I hope I might have a meeting of the minds with him (aka "odog") someday, as he is in the Chicago area somewhere.


IMHO, it would be fun to be able to use one of these programs somehow to have "meetings / banquets / award ceremonies" with 'virtual personas' at Emma Field.


Amazing what new technological possibilities are unfolding nowadays, isn't it ?

GaryGB