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Adding Legs to Approaches

Messages
84
Country
us-texas
I am facing 2 problems;

1) In the approach mode for stock airports, ADE is not listing all route waypoints within 60 nm of the airport
2) For the modified airport (from stock airport), only terminal waypoints are listed and route waypoints do not appear in the Waypoint List.

I have created Sugar Land (KSGR) airport from stock airport and the RNAV(GPS) approaches do not show the IAF - these start from IF. So I am trying to add another leg starting from IAF but unable to do so because the route waypoint (which is only 13 nm from the airport) is not showing up in the waypoint list.

In P3D if I go to the Map view I can see that route waypoint.

I am using P3D v4.1 and ADE v1.75

Pramod
 
Messages
223
Country
us-idaho
You have to import the stock navaids from the airport page before switching to the Approach Page. After doing so all nearby terminal waypoints (which should already appear), waypoints, NDBs, and VORs should appear and be selectable on the Approach Page. The only restriction on them will be you cannot move them if they are located in the sim at the wrong location. You can only move and relocate terminal waypoints and waypoints and other Navaids that you added because they were not in the default database.

If the RNAV waypoint you are trying to select that does not appear was "created" after the default database was created it will not show up even after you import nearby databases however. You have to create that new waypoint yourself or install one of the database updates you can find like Herve Sors product.

That import function is under Tools/Load Stock Data/Navaids and Waypoints.

Randy
 
Messages
84
Country
us-texas
Thanks Randy for very useful tips. I have one more question - I am trying to create a GPS approach. I am able to create the one side of 'T' and the missed leg/HOLD etc. However, I am not able to get the other half of 'T' (I mean other half of the top bar of T) - see the attached file please.
Any suggestions?

Pramod
 

Attachments

  • Half T.jpg
    Half T.jpg
    12.9 KB · Views: 201
Messages
223
Country
us-idaho
Pramod,

I use FSX, not P3D, so there is a chance there will be differences in "default" waypoints between the two. I brought up in ADE the default KSGR, Sugarland in Houston and discovered none of the taxiways are labeled, but other than that it's a good rendition of the way the layout exists today in real life. No runway renumbering or new taxiways that I saw.

I looked at your screenshot but the detail is too small for me to make out the waypoint names. I also looked at the current RNAV (GPS) approach to RWY 17. I assume the "right" 90-degree turn leg in your attachment comes from DIZGY to EBOKE. DIZGY is not a default waypoint in FSX, so I assume it is not in P3D either. Did you add it?

That is "technically" not an Approach leg, but rather a transition to the approach leg. Your approach leg can only be a continuous line of connected waypoints from the IF to the runway (or Missed Approach Point) to the Missed Approach Legs. That is why you cannot add the other side of the "T" to the approach. It would no longer be continuous. When you build an Approach in ADE you do that in three steps with three main types of Legs; Approach Legs from the IF to the Runway or MAP, Missed Approach Legs from the Runway (or MAP) to the Holding Point of the MAP, and Transition Legs from the IAFs to the IF. You first build just the Approach Leg, in this case from EBOKE to Runway is the easiest way , although technically on the Jeppesen Charts I use the "Approach" ends at the Missed Approach Point which is 1.8 miles short of the runway. Anyway, After building the Approach you then add the Missed Approach Legs from the Runway (or Missed Point) to the Missed Approach Hold Fix. As you said, you have that displayed correctly. Now you have to add in the Transition Legs and there can be multiple Transitions from multiple points all converging on the IF at EBOKE.

The IF for the RNAV (GPS) Approach to Runway 17 at Sugarland is EBOKE. Note that an IF can also be an IAF, especially in the case of RNAV (GPS) Approaches, however in the case of KSGR it is only an IF, not an IAF also. So, you have to build your approach using EBOKE as the IF, not DIGZY as I suspect you have. There are two transitions listed on my charts to get to EBOKE, one from DIZGY and one from BASGE. To do that, first remove, if it is there, the EBOKE Transition since EBOKE is no longer an IAF, only an IF. Now look on the right side of the Approach Page when you have the RWY 17 GPS approach displayed on the screen. You will see the heading "Current Airport KSGR" displayed and below that right click where it says "R17:GPS". Four choices should come up; Add Approach Leg, Add Missed Approach Leg, add Transition (note the absence of the word "Leg"), and Show XML.

First make sure you have added the two Transition Waypoints of DIZGY and BASGE. Now select "Add Transition" and in the box that appears select "FULL", "TERMINAL WAYPOINT", and then press the down arrow key next to "Fix Ident" and scroll to BASGE and click "ADD". Next do the same thing for DIGZY. Now at the bottom of the text description of the Approach you should see "Transition BASGE" and "Transition DIGZY" listed.

Remember when I said to note that the word "Leg" was missing from the "ADD TRANSITION" option when you right click "R17:GPS"? That's because transition legs are not added to the runway, but rather to the transition. To add a Transition Leg right click either the words "Transition DIGZY" or "Transition BASGE" and the option to add a Transition Leg will appear. Add an IF Leg at BASGE and also when you move to the other Transition an IF Leg at DIGZY. The Approach has an initial fix at EBOKE, but each transition has an initial fix also (IF...really an Initial Approach Fix (IAF), but that type "leg" is not available in ADE because it was never coded by the ACES Team). Now for both Transitions add a TF (Track to Fix) leg to EBOKE (which, remember, is a waypoint, not a terminal waypoint).

After doing this you still will not see both "sides" of the "T" you are expecting to see at the same time, but they are both there, trust me. Clicking on "Transition BASGE" will show you the left side of the "T" and clicking on "Transition DIGZY" will show you the right side.

Clear as mud, right? Here is mine in two separate screenshots...one for the left side and one for the right....

YXaOID2.jpg


HqhYfuP.jpg


Randy
 
Messages
84
Country
us-texas
Thanks again Randy, first of all I apologize for creating some confusion - in my first message I had mentioned KSGR but the snapshots I sent to you were for KELA (which is 35 west of KSGR). So, I was able to get the approach done following your instructions, but I am a little confused by the snapshots you provided. In your snapshot I see ApproachLeg IF and then 2 ApproachLeg TF, and then under Transition DIZGY there is a TransitionLegIF and a TransitionLeg TF. I am confused about different types of approaches in the dropdown lists - AF,CA,CD,CF, etc. Where can I find a description of these? Also is it possible for you to send me the file you created? I want to see the details of each leg.
 
Messages
223
Country
us-idaho
The Approach Leg IF is for EBOKE and is where the approach starts. First TF is the leg from EBOKE to CASOB and the second TF Leg is for CASOB to RW17, then the Missed Approach Legs start. For both the DIGZY and the BASGE transitions there is only the IF at either DIGZY and/or BASGE and then one TF leg from the transition IF to EBOKE, where the approach starts so no more TF legs needed. "TF" stands for "Track to Fix" and is commonly used on RNAV and GPS Approaches. "DF" is "Direct to Fix", and "CF" is "Course to Fix".

Everything I learned about approaches was either self-taught or from a good relationship with Jim Vile ("jvile in most forums). He taught me a lot and was a very patient mentor. Sadly he passed away a few years back, but his knowledge lives on in many, many forum posts here or in other sites. Somewhere...maybe one of his posts...I found an excellent description of each leg type and printed it out on hard copy paper. I will look and see if I can relocate it.

The .ad4 file for KSGR is attached. I reworked the airport itself, naming the taxiways (they were all blank), adding in the A taxiway that split off from the M taxiway that ran the full length of the runway in the default KSGR, and added the flight school parking area and apron across the bridges next to the renamed A taxiway. The only approach I reworked was the GPS RW17, renaming it to the RNAV RW17.

I'll be in touch here if I find the leg descriptor link.

Randy
 

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  • KSGR_ADEX_RVT.ad4
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Messages
84
Country
us-texas
Randy,

You have given me the keys to a gold mine :). However, when I looked at your file, you had BASGE, EBOKE and DIZGY all nicely lined up in a straight line (top of T), but when I looked at my P3D installation, the coordinates for EBOKE do not match with the coordinates in your file!!! I don't know what is going on here. And in both cases the coordinates do not match with the real-life coordinates (from my ForeFlight). I can understand not matching with real-life data but at least two installations of P3D should not have any discrepancy.
 
Messages
223
Country
us-idaho
I don't know, could be a P3D vs FSX issue...could be you have two EBOKE intersections...??? As I explained, I only have FS2004 and FSX. No installation of P3D in any form so I can't help sort that issue...

Randy
 
Messages
84
Country
us-texas
One thing I am not able to figure out is how to specify the decision altitude/height for missed approach. There are several heights listed in the options for each leg and I have read through the manual but that did not help. For example - Altitude1, Altitude2, Altitude desc, etc.

Pramod
 
Messages
223
Country
us-idaho
Pramod,

Sorry, first for the late reply...been a hectic week for me.

I rarely worry about the "altitudes" of the legs unless I am dealing with a hard altitude leg like "CA", climb to altitude; "HA", Hold at Altitude; etc type leg...and almost always as they relate to the Missed Approach segments of the approach code, which comes after the "Missed Approach Point" for obvious reasons. Those altitudes are listed in the leg parameters as Altitude1. Cannot ever recall seeing an "Altitude2". The different "stages" of building an approach can get confusing in terminology, but I assume you are referring to trying to set the altitude (decision height) at which you must decide either to land or to "go missed". There are really only two leg types typically used to get you to that point (DH/MAP) in Flight Sim and ADE is "restricted" by those leg types...CF, Course to Fix and TF, Track to Fix.

Neither CF nor TF have an altitude parameter, so if you use either one of those there is no altitude to set and, so, no way to establish a DH. Those are certainly not the only two leg types that can be used, but are the two most common in an approach. Of the 22 leg types in FS, and therefore in ADE, only three have an altitude parameter that I see and all are listed as "Altitude1" so I am curious where you saw "Altitude2". The three parameters are CA, HA, and FA.

I have not ever tried using any of the three in an approach "toward" the runway, only in the Missed Approach Legs "away from the runway" after passing the missed approach point in in the approach. here I need to digress a bit and talk about the DH/MAP (the point, not the procedure) on a chart. Where these "points in space" actually are located is determined in several ways. The most common is a waypoint in space. They can also be set as a specific distance from a fix or before a runway threshold, or from/to a NAVAID such as an NDB, VOR, or ILS transmitter. But I don't really see how you can attach a specific altitude to any of the type legs that are used for those type of situations.

Randy
 
Messages
84
Country
us-texas
Randy,

Thanks for the explanation. I think I am slowly getting to understand it now. I managed to fix all approaches at KSGR. However, for KELA (Eagle Lake - another nearby airport that I fly to frequently, both in real life and in sim) there is an approach VOR17 - I managed to do a part of it but I am stuck at the procedure turn leg. If you see the actual approach plate, the pilot needs to turn heading 357deg at ELA vor and then fly for about a minute before executing the procedure turn to get established on the final. I have attached my file here. Any ideas how to add this leg?

Pramod
 

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  • KELA_ADEP4_PCM.ad4
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tgibson

Resource contributor
Messages
11,338
Country
us-california
AFAIK you cannot have a variable point to begin your procedure turn (PI) *leg*. You *can* have a variable point to start the turn itself, though. I can't look at your approach (no P3D) but this will show how that works.

1. Use CF, TF, etc. legs to get to the ELA VOR.
2. Add a PI leg. I use ELA for both waypoints in the dialog box, I don't really know what the bottom one is used for.
3. Click on the new PI leg.
4. Set the Turn Dir R or L, depending on the diagram.
5. Change the Leg Basis to Time.
6. Enter 1 in the Time box.
7. Adjust the Course value until it is at 357 degrees, plus or minus 45 degrees (depending on whether the turn is R or L). Use the course that gives you the heading you want (357) departing the ELA VOR.

That should give you sort of what you asked for?

If you want something different, you can have more control if you have a waypoint right at the procedure turn and set the Time/Distance to 0. Then you can set the course from the VOR (357) using a separate leg, AND customize the way the procedure turn looks. But AFAIK this location must be fixed in space, i.e. it cannot be 1 minute from the ELA VOR. Your choice.

Hope this helps,
 
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