I still don't get the ILS thiing

[rondon9897]

I'm trying to change the ILS at EGCC manchester from 24/06 to 23/05. I've change the runways, but can't change the ILS systems. I add new ILS, and the old ones can't be edited or deleted. What can I do? There must be some way of changing this?

P.S. Is there a place where I can get ready-made .bgl files for EGCC, with all the runway and ILS changes? 'cos I'm fed up of fiddling around.


CJ

 

[scruffyduck]

Jim can provide a much more detailed explanation that I can but the bottom line is that you cannot delete stock ILS. This has nothing to do with ADE but the way that FSX works. It provides no way to 'delete' navigational aids of any type from the stock files. You can move ILS, you can even delete the DME or Glide slope elements if present but you cannot delete the localizer.

Are you adding a new runway or just modifying and old one?

 

[jvile]

CJ

I understand your fustration. Not a lot to add that has not already been said by Jon.

THe ADE Home Version does not have the ability to edit XML with a xml/txt editor. This is what must be done to change the runway numbers, Localizer data so FSX understands to use it and all the Approach code required to matchup to the new runway numbers.

ADE Home Version is more for the GA and smaller Airline type airports so a User can add proper parking and other basic code to a airport.

In the near future Jon will release a ADE Pro Edition that has many more features and allows the User/Designer to place code into those areas considered advance that requires rewites of the XML.

You could do a search on AVSIM or other web sites to see if someone has already renumbered the runways. A word of caution. Many User/Designers use current utilities available that will renumber runways and reset the localizer. What they fail to do is rewrite all the approach code which if not updated breaks the foundation of unseen scenery for the airport.

 

[scruffyduck]

A word of caution. Many User/Designers use current utilities available that will renumber runways and reset the localizer. What they fail to do is rewrite all the approach code which if not updated breaks the foundation of unseen scenery for the airport.

This is a very important point so I will emphasise it. If you change the ILS informatin and runway numbering you may very well mess up approach data and that could cause all sorts of problems with AI and user aircraft.

ADE Pro will help with these problems as Jim says.

 

[Difar]

CJ

The ILS information is embedded in the runway data tree. As Jon said, ADE does not allow acess to this data to change the r/w association (for now), but... if you are familier with xml language, you can manually change this information (two great programs are Cooktop and MS's XML Notepad). These programs are very powerful and if you are not familier with the xml language, you can really screw up your file. The SDK has a pretty good info doc if needed.
One last thing, if you do change the r/w and ils info (or just the r/w with a corrisponding precision approach), you must also change ALL the approach tree(s)(ILS, NDB, VOR, GPS...) to corrispond to the new r/w data, or you will have just VFR approaches and no Precision approaches (this information is also found in the airport data tree).

 

[scott967]

There is also a problem. While the compiler lets us assign an ILS to one or both runway ends, the facility data is stored in the VOR section of the BGL. This allows MS do take care of things like KSTL St Louis Runway 30L, where there is an ILS approach using I-RMK and in addition an LDA approach using I-BKY. Only one is tied to the airport runway in the XML code and there is no way in bglcomp to get rid of the separate ILS which appears only in the VOR section.

scott s.
.

 

[scruffyduck]

There is also a problem. While the compiler lets us assign an ILS to one or both runway ends, the facility data is stored in the VOR section of the BGL. This allows MS do take care of things like KSTL St Louis Runway 30L, where there is an ILS approach using I-RMK and in addition an LDA approach using I-BKY. Only one is tied to the airport runway in the XML code and there is no way in bglcomp to get rid of the separate ILS which appears only in the VOR section.

scott s.
.

If I understand correctly what you are saying Scott then I'm not sure it is strictly true. Certainly there are runways with multiple ILS at a single end. Also you are correct that the information is not stored in the airport section of the bgl file but in the vor section. However it is possible to have more than one ILS assigned in the XML to a single runway. Also ADE/SDE will find all ILS for a given runway end and nest it in the runway. The usual caveat applies that the localizer can't be deleted of cours.

 

[jvile]

You can have mutilple ILS's nested with the runway record. You cannot have mutilple type ILS's for the same runway end in the approach code.

This is the basics for any runway that has 2 Localizers assigned to a single end runway. There are many in the airport database such as KSTL, KASE, KSNA, EDDF etc.

Because the Runway Property Element owns the ILS for the User Plane only and mutilples are allowed (ILS Localizer + LDA Localizer) the approach code portion of the XML must have seperate types coded.

KSTL is not coded properly in the APX.bgl because the freq assigned to a ILS in the airport runway record is the LDA coded in the approach record for both LDA's at KSTL. That means when you try to dial in the ILS you are actually flying a offset LDA beam which makes eveyone think the localizer is not aligned to a runway properly.

I have it on a list of to do's to fix this runway/approach code but would like to combine it with Mace's KSTL and not rework a new KSTL for upload. I have already fixed KASE and that is on AVSIM so both Localizers are honored properly when flying into Aspen, Co and using the second Localizer to get out of KASE.

When I rewote Aspen I also recoded the AI so they clear the Mountain range on approach using a hardfloor of 13,000ft. The descent rate once clear of the mountains is very steep just as real world Jepp charts show.

 

[ninebikes]

Sorry to rehash this, if it has already been viewed and reviewed. Is this an issue with FSX 1.39/1.40, or when I change the runway data (add runway > runway info), will it take care of all the approach data? Or, do I need to go into the XML and change this info so AI and user a/c are not negatively affected?
For instance, I extended an existing runway at MYBS from 5000 to 7500. What steps should I take now? Again, using FSX 1.39. Thanks in advance!

Dave

 

[scruffyduck]

Sorry to rehash this, if it has already been viewed and reviewed. Is this an issue with FSX 1.39/1.40, or when I change the runway data (add runway > runway info), will it take care of all the approach data? Or, do I need to go into the XML and change this info so AI and user a/c are not negatively affected?
For instance, I extended an existing runway at MYBS from 5000 to 7500. What steps should I take now? Again, using FSX 1.39. Thanks in advance!

Dave

if you change the length of a runway then you would need to check that the approach code is still working. ADE can't do it automatically. If you can hang on for a few days then we should have the next build ready for public beta and this includes drawing the approaches in ADE to match what the user sees in the GPS. This will show the effects of changing runways and allow you to fix the code in ADE.

 

[jvile]

Sorry to rehash this, if it has already been viewed and reviewed. Is this an issue with FSX 1.39/1.40, or when I change the runway data (add runway > runway info), will it take care of all the approach data? Or, do I need to go into the XML and change this info so AI and user a/c are not negatively affected?
For instance, I extended an existing runway at MYBS from 5000 to 7500. What steps should I take now? Again, using FSX 1.39. Thanks in advance!

Dave

Adding to Jon's post

When this thread was started ADE did not automate many parts of the runway. Ver 1.37 has automation if you renumber a runway all the ILS properties are changed also to keep the IDENTS assigned to the new runway number.

When any runway is renumbered the approach code has to change since runway numbers embed in that code.

If you lengthen an existing runway the approach code is still entact and in most cases nothing else has to be done. IF a ILS exist then move the symbols on the grid to match the amount of length added.

Approaches are coded to the heading or number of a runway so length is not a major factor. Some approaches like VORDME do not end at the runway but the missed approach starts at a MAP Terminal_Waypoint. If the runway is lengthen the MAP T_waypoint may have to be moved back a small amount for the User Airplane.

If you move a runway side to side that can destort the approaches since some of the Terminal_waypoints are aligned with a runway. The IAF and FAF Terminal_waypoints should be moved left or right the same amount as the runway was moved left or right.

 

[ninebikes]

Adding to Jon's post

When this thread was started ADE did not automate many parts of the runway. Ver 1.37 has automation if you renumber a runway all the ILS properties are changed also to keep the IDENTS assigned to the new runway number.

When any runway is renumbered the approach code has to change since runway numbers embed in that code.

If you lengthen an existing runway the approach code is still entact and in most cases nothing else has to be done. IF a ILS exist then move the symbols on the grid to match the amount of length added.

Approaches are coded to the heading or number of a runway so length is not a major factor. Some approaches like VORDME do not end at the runway but the missed approach starts at a MAP Terminal_Waypoint. If the runway is lengthen the MAP T_waypoint may have to be moved back a small amount for the User Airplane.

If you move a runway side to side that can destort the approaches since some of the Terminal_waypoints are aligned with a runway. The IAF and FAF Terminal_waypoints should be moved left or right the same amount as the runway was moved left or right.

Guys,

First off, big thanks! I did not move the runway L or R, just lengthened, so it should be ok. This is a small airport, so I don't expect a huge increase in AI. But, it would be cool if Lear 45's would be seen. Is this for an AI programming/planning forum

Now, a more intense question: when adding a runway, what steps would you recommend? i.e. adding a water runway. I am sorry if this is a questions repeated over and over, but while I have your attention...

Thanks
Dave

 

[jvile]

Is this for an AI programming/planning forum

Yes

Dave

ADE does not add AI Planes but only controls the AI Planes when added by a FP Utility.

Now, a more intense question: when adding a runway, what steps would you recommend? i.e. adding a water runway. I am sorry if this is a questions repeated over and over, but while I have your attention...

It depends. Is the water runway for the User plane or for both User Plane and AI planes.

 

[GHD]

It depends. Is the water runway for the User plane or for both User Plane and AI planes.

A water runway can be used only by a user aircraft.

One may simulate a water runway for AI but it needs to have a hard surface and the AI aircraft needs to have "wheels".

 

[ninebikes]

Prob just user a/c. Again you guys have answered everything I had! Thanks, have a great day

Dave