Lazy m_o_r_o_ns?

[radialronnie]

I have not been actively participating in any fs community for a while so when I came back to fs dev I was very surprised to see the number of "I'm a newbie, plez help to make my YouNameIt". What is the deal with that? all these lazy morons should grab a copy of gmax/3dsmax and a tutorial and start learning. Also come to fs dev to ask learning questions but NOT to ask someone to do all the work for them and then they get a part of the profit. That, I think, has a place. But that place is not here! I don't know what has caused this surge of these kinds of posts but it ugly to say the least. Like take these for example:

(this following one was very nicely aske, i'l give him credit for that: Link)

link

(mirrors my current state: link)

link

</rant> any thoughts on this?
sorry if i was a tad bit too harsh

 

[arno]

Hi,

Questions by people looking for help pop up now and then. Usually they do not really get much responds either.

I don't think it is a problem, somebody should be able to propose a project and ask for help by other people. Although I agree that a lot of those people how no idea what they are asking and how much work such a project really is.

Maybe we should make a special subforum for this kind of requests?

 

[scruffyduck]

Agreed Arno

I think these are legitimate posts. On the other hand it makes sense to have them all in one place. Also it does seem to me that a bit more explanation than 'I need a developer' should be expected. Perhaps this should be a pre-moderated forum like news?

 

[arno]

Hi Jon,

Also it does seem to me that a bit more explanation than 'I need a developer' should be expected. Perhaps this should be a pre-moderated forum like news?

I am not in favour of that. If somebody does not post enough information, he will not get many response. That is his problem. I don't think the moderators can easily justify which posts to allow and which not.

 

[Mace]

I guess the question is, do you want this site to be more of a "learn site" or do you want this site to be a soliciting site.

I've always thought FSDev to be more of a learning-type site.

 

[arno]

This site is definitely more a learning site, but that does not mean questions for help like this are not allowed. And we try to keep moderation to a minimum, so therefore I want people to remain free to post this kind of things as well.

 

[FelixFFDS]

I tend to agree with Arno on this.

New modellers generally get their start in more general flightsim forums, and gravitate to fsdeveloper.com (and FFDS) by referral - word of mouth, so to speak. There will always be the enthusiastic beginner that wants to know everything there is to know about flightsim modelling - in 25 words or less.

It is up to the experienced modellers among us to gently bring these enthusiastic beginners (and age has nothing to do with it) and make them face reality. However, if we blast them from the beginning, the real loser is the particular site - fsdeveloper.com or freeflightdesign.com, where they were rejected, etc etc.

What we need to do is bring them in to the fold and not abuse them - until they've been around long enough to know better (what, you didn't press the little blue checkered box to make the material show up?).

Just remember, WE were once the beginning modeller, with no clue how to apply the glue and avoid bleed throughs (and whoever remembers what I'm talking about has been around a LONG time - in flightsim modelling terms)

 

[n4gix]

Just remember, WE were once the beginning modeller, with no clue how to apply the glue

Elmer's Testor's or Duco?

 

[jdhaenens]

Super (duro)

 

[B17Sam]

Sentiments well taken

I am new to this forum and can appreciate the opinions of those who have put in the work to learn how to model well.

I am one of those beginners digging through the tutorials and doing my best to learn how to model in Gmax. Right now I am using "Idiots Guide to Gmax". It has been a great help, but sometime more questions arise and don't seem to be covered. I know the answers are out there and I'm digging. It is fun to see something coming together, even if you don't know how it will turn out until you've put in a lot of time.

Arno's idea of having a designated place for beginners questions and to 'learn a few ropes', so to speak, seems like a good idea to me. Experienced developers who are just too busy or just don't want to get involved can be spared.

There will always be questions asked by those who are looking for the "25 word" how to do everything answer. I hope that won't discourage you experienced developers from sharing your incredible knowledge and experiences with others who don't mind earning it with their own hard work.

 

[EssieP]

Also, don't forget also that many posters don't have English as their first language. Sometimes we will have to tease clear meaning from them.

 

[bobbyjack]

Sorry if I'm a tad bit harsh. But I think the OP was a tad bit out of line. MHO.

Bob

 

[=Hollywood=]

I appreciate Arno's approach too...

Even though I'm now doing commercial projects (which are necessitated by multi-million-dollar-source-data business arrangements that cannot be achieved by freeware), I got my start back in FS4 as a freeware designer and have numerous freeware and commercial projects that need up and coming talent for...

Right now I have need of a simconnect programmer for freeware and commercial projects, a GMAX/3DS experienced building and LOD optimization modeller (for commercial projects including ESP), and both Mission designers and Aircraft modelers for commercial projects...

Trying to find talent is the hardest thing we're finding, and we need more people in the FS community... We've got projects for the FS community that we want to release as freeware where ever possible, and commercial projects coming up that also have markets with big corporations and governments...

Honestly we need new talent, most current talent are either already taken up with their own projects or are unreliable...

So yeah we need new people here... I'm honestly in need of people in several departments...

Dean.

 

[arno]

Just remember, WE were once the beginning modeller, with no clue how to apply the glue and avoid bleed throughs (and whoever remembers what I'm talking about has been around a LONG time - in flightsim modelling terms)

Humm, the good old days of Flight Simulator Flight Shop. In that time I was even trying to make some aircraft for FS5. With the glue indeed.

 

[arno]

Arno's idea of having a designated place for beginners questions and to 'learn a few ropes', so to speak, seems like a good idea to me. Experienced developers who are just too busy or just don't want to get involved can be spared.

There will always be questions asked by those who are looking for the "25 word" how to do everything answer. I hope that won't discourage you experienced developers from sharing your incredible knowledge and experiences with others who don't mind earning it with their own hard work.

I don't think we need a special forum for new designers, I think it is better if they participate in the normal discussions.

What was suggested is to make a special forum for people posting things like "I am looking for a designer to make me a Boeing 747", etc.

And I am sure a lot of the people are willing to help new designers to get started. As long as they show some initiative themself as well and some willingness to try the things suggested. The ones that expect the easy answer and expect everything done for them are less fun to help, but luckily most members are not like that here .

 

[solid]

I tend to agree with Arno on this.

New modellers generally get their start in more general flightsim forums, and gravitate to fsdeveloper.com (and FFDS) by referral - word of mouth, so to speak. There will always be the enthusiastic beginner that wants to know everything there is to know about flightsim modelling - in 25 words or less.

It is up to the experienced modellers among us to gently bring these enthusiastic beginners (and age has nothing to do with it) and make them face reality. However, if we blast them from the beginning, the real loser is the particular site - fsdeveloper.com or freeflightdesign.com, where they were rejected, etc etc.

What we need to do is bring them in to the fold and not abuse them - until they've been around long enough to know better (what, you didn't press the little blue checkered box to make the material show up?).

Just remember, WE were once the beginning modeller, with no clue how to apply the glue and avoid bleed throughs (and whoever remembers what I'm talking about has been around a LONG time - in flightsim modelling terms)

I totally agree with you. I came here as green as an apple and it is here where I have learned much thanks to so many nice people who are willing to help a newbee. the guy who started this post is probably a sour apple and should go cry under the apple tree, he sure does not portray the majority of great developers here.

PS....this guy is probably reading his manuals and trying to make do of the words with his dog by his side, hungry because he forgot to feed him. (talking about Morons??)

And to top this : I take the opportunity to congratulate Arnold for this site, it is Unique!!! the best in the Internet for us all developers and "quasi" developers...Thank you Arnold and so many others who really show our community how to be civil and teach one another this intricate technological Art!!!!!...May God bless you all.

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

In the case of New Bloods looking for answers i contend nothing works better than the search function, a sticky in the modelling section with instructions on how to use the search engine and key words to track down the answers , also a link to the Wiki and how its knowledge base can be sorted is appropriate.
There will always be someone showing up wanting to open a .mdl to modify (****) or the kind of post where they want it handed to them on a platter , snap fingers poof done model finished, the first thing they will learn is to deal with disappointment, after that some percentage will persevere through the many stages to accumulate the needed education in 3d modelling , textures , the SDK and how to use it, they will all have one thing in common... They asked very few questions, because the answers are already there. you just need to know how to track them down.

It happens once in a blue moon that the masters will post a question, but even in the information age the adage " One learns more by listening than talking " holds true , the only adaptation being that one now listens with their eyes and lets their fingers do the talking.
C.J

 

[decapod]

It happens once in a blue moon that the masters will post a question, but even in the information age the adage " One learns more by listening than talking " holds true , the only adaptation being that one now listens with their eyes and lets their fingers do the talking.
C.J

An interesting adage and mostly true.
I'm new-ish to flight sims but an experienced 3D modeller of trains.
I have found that writing tutorials causes you to think more about what you're doing and writing and you learn quite a lot that way.
Tutorials on forums can also start conversations about techniques again starting the learning process.

Paul

 

[Chuck Jodry VJPL]

Good point you made there , it’s the exception that proves the rule , one of the dangers in the belief you know something already is your less inclined to think there is another way, and perhaps the chief reason i continually read these forums are those discussions that pop up now and then where real progress gets made overcoming a limitation or following the learning process , a great recent moment was Bill's Epic.
Moments that make it worthwhile, its grand to see masters in action and making visible the process, its a trait that is generous of the parties involved not only of their time but for the knowlage itself.