FSX Making a small 50ft recess

[Tomt478]

Maybe someone can help me here. I have a project that is 1524meters above sea level, now I want to create a 'recess' going down about 50meters from the ARP (1524m). I am using Sbuilderx to do this because ADE won't allow any polys above or below the ARP. Here's what I have tried so far: I created a poly using AB Flatten and set it at 1474m, that's 50m below the ARP of 1524m. Now when I compile the BGL and I place it where it needs to be, when I load FSX and move to the lowered area, it appears to stay the same alt as the ARP when I press Shift+Z to show my position and alt. The are I am lowering has only a few mountains around it. I want to create a small valley in the lowered area, but can't get the lowered area to actually 'lower'. I know I will have to create a slope upward to the ARP for my roads, and that's not a problem, I can do that, but first I have to get the area to lower down to that 50m below the ARP. If I can get that to work, then I should be able to do the opposite to create small 'hills' that I can put some houses on. I've been practicing with slopes but even following instructions in Sbuilderx, it just don't want to work. The area I am working in has no polys or PR LC only has a 'Forest' LC and a few Library Objects. It's all just natural land with nothing else added. So there should be no vector problems or alignment problems.

Here's a screenshot of the area I am trying to lower. The blackened area is the flatten poly , the area to the left is the main area that is at 1524m the blacked area is supposed to be 1474m. But it remains at 1524m. I have it set to AB Exclude Autogen at the alt of 1724. Should I use a AB Flatten instead? I tried that but it seems to work opposite, the lower the alt I put it at, the higher the area is and all of my objects vanish, the higher I put the alt, the lower the area is and still loosed my objects. AB Exclusion was the only thing that kept it all level and all my objects visible. Can someone please explain what I am doing wrong without me having to zip and upload a bunch of files. That at this point is impractical to do as there are a LOT of PR files that I would have to include in order for anyone to load up the project in their sim. I also have a LOT of custom made objects that would have to be included as well. So uploading the files is not at all practical anymore. The project is just to complex and large to do so. I just need an explanation of what it is I am doing wrong to accomplish this task.

 

[GaryGB]

IIUC, you want to use a CVX Vector AB Flatten to make a 'ground recess', and it is to be located within the Test Radius of an Airport ARP ?


If ADE is used, quite likely MS' FSX "Airport AI Traffic-obsessed Flat Earth Evil Infrastructure" will force a 'ground recess' to ARP Altitude.

If SBuilderX is used, it "may" work, if the CVX Vectors are not located within the Geographic area of an ARP Test Radius.

The clue about this "Road To Perdition" is 'AB Flatten' (Airport Background).

As a Airport Background object, it is a "Lackey-To-The-Man" ...meaning it is an Airport-related object subject to hijacking by an ARP.

FS has used the expression "As Real As It Gets" to promote FS over many years; IMHO, that's BS;, to me "Realism" infers non-flat Airports.


One can work around this via a local terrain mesh tile compiled via SDK Resample rather than a AB Flatten compiled via SDK SHP2VEC.


If you subdivide your project into smaller segments with multiple Airport (1)-RWY ARPs, each with a small test Radius, this may still work.


I was reminded of this option from a tip George Davison (aka "GHD") on making small discrete (1)-RWY Airports with unique ICAO's.

I realized that one may be able to eliminate the ARP Altitude "hijack" of CVX Vector AB Flatten (only) polygons by limiting ARP extents.


I need to refresh my memory on this further, but IIRC, the mechanism that enables this is having a small ARP Test Radius.


IIRC, FS2Kx this hijacking of CVX Vector AB Flatten Altitude by ARPs is pervasive only in so far as ARP test Radius.

I am not certain if one can separate Airport infrastructure objects such as vehicle taxiway paths from within Airport XML elements.

If one could do that, they may not be limited to display within ARP Test Radius.


But AFAIK, use of such Airport objects as "Roads" may require such code to exist within Airport XML elements in order to display at all.

This is one of the reasons I recommended substituting CVX Vector Roads for such improvised use of Airport objects as "Roads".


BTW: In MSFS SDK, a recent trend is to convert Vectors into XML within the Airport BGL, which forces it to exist within Airport code.

This limits visibility distance to only within ARP Test Radius, which complicates further the process of controlling scenery for realism.


I plan to test if converting MSFS Vectors into XML within the Airport BGL will still allow vector display if placed 'outside' ARP Test Radius.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

So in other words with the current project, it can't be done? I would have to take the entire project apart, then separate each area into its own 'airport' with 1Rwy, using the absolute smallest airport radius? Could I just change the radius to the smallest I can to exclude the area I want to work on? This would put most of the area to the East and WEST out of the ARP radius. Would that work? Is there a way to eliminate the Airport Roads and still be able to use the parking spots. I tried that once and if I run the project error check, it tells me that all of the parking spots and not connected to the network and no aircraft would be able to use them. It still compiles ok, since I only use the "roads" for ground travel. Would I still need the Exclusions under the roads to remove the vegetation, or do I not need that to use 'vector roads'.

 

[Tomt478]

Please let me know how the testing goes. I would really like more instruction on using CVX vectors and making them work within the ARP radius. It would take FOREVER to tear the project apart to create individual airports for each location. If I knew that I was going to add all this stuff when I started the project, I would have already done that. But since things have gotten this far ,that really isn't an option.

BTW: I've never used the Shift+Z function in FSX before now, does the alt shown when you activate the Shift+Z show the alt of your aircraft (or ground vehicle) or does it only show the alt of the airport? I never see this change and I know for a fact by looking at Google Earth, the entire "Ranch" alt is not all the same alt. It changes from area to area by up to 100ft, but the value shown never changes. The coordinates change as you travel, but not the alt. If the alt only shows the ARP alt. then how can I tell if the area I am working on changes in alt?

 

[GaryGB]

This would likely be a quick operation in ADE for you.

Assuming (4) RWYs , make (4) copies of the current *AD4 project file, and rename them with a unique ICAO: KWR1, KWR2, KWR3, KWR4.

Edit them 1 at a time in ADE to delete all but (1) of the (separate and different) RWYs and all content outside its ARP Test Radius area.

Keep ARP Test Radius small around each (default is 5,000 Meters); regardless, keep ARPs 1,000 Meters from an intended 'ground recess'.



As to why my FSX install has been crashing either immediately or as soon as the 2nd reload of your project, I just remembered this is why:

Aircraft parking spots not connected to the network = "Orphan Parking"


You have multiple "Orphan Parking" errors in ADE Fault Finder which must be fixed immediately; there are numerous other errors as well.

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/fsx-crash-to-desktop.442858/post-799585

I would go as far as to say that orphan parking is the leading cause of CTDs

Stop loading your project airport BGL in FSX; you are likely incrementally damaging your install every time FSX crashes.

My FSX install normally never crashes; but does- and has repeatedly- ...with your BGL loaded.

I spent HOURS into the night yesterday gathering files required to reinstall FSX from the ground up because Windows also malfunctioned.

Windows update apparently installed some code that prevented me from substituting / activating one of my backup FSX archives.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

I know, I fixed those already. It raise an eybrow the first time you told me it crashed on you. I can upload a new AD4 if you need it. I've done a lot of changes since then. I have added a couple of PR LCs since then as well, but for the area I'm working on those won't matter, you won't need them. The area I'm working on has no PR or anything else for that matter. I'll zip up the current AD$ and let you take a look at what I have so far. I tried lowering the radius to 5000m and I'm not sure if it did anything or not as I have no way to see what alt I am at on the ground. I've been checking things and fixing whatever errors ADE reports, other than that, any other errors are not known.

 

[GaryGB]

Both ADE and SBuilder have a means of measuring distances.

If you import the project CvxExtractor-derived *.SHP files into Google Earth Desktop Edition, you can measure in there as well.

I'll check back later this afternoon or evening to see what you may have posted links to.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

KWR1_ADEX_TT_ALT

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Ok, here's the current AD4 file. I took out the SbuilderX poly and replaced it with several ADE AB Polys, each at a different alt. I only started at 1490ft and gradually went up to the 5000ft of the airport. I changed the ARP Radius to 5000m. Everything displays fine, I just can't tell if it worked or not because I have no way to tell what alt I am at on the ground.

 

[Tomt478]

Ok, well as per Gary's information, I accept defeat, what I wanted to do cannot be done. I just thought there would be an easier way to do such a thing other than creating several different airports for each area, and even then not sure if that would work without further reprocussions. So unless someone does come up with a solution, I will abandon that attempt. It's just too much work to do to create different airports and 'hope' it works the way I want it to. It's really not worth the headaches and time to do something that may or may not work. this is one big mother of a project and separating everything including all of the PR LCs and objects, and all would take just too long to do. I might consider trying just the area I am working on by removing everything from that area and creating a new single airport there. since I'm going to use only ground transprtation there, would I really need to create a runway there? I do have one there, but considering removing it. It's going to be a bit of work to line up the roads using two separate airports as I would not be able to load up both airports on top of each other to line the roads up.

 

[GaryGB]

To get on-ground Altitude:

With the aircraft on ground, press the <Shft>+<Z> keys 2 or 3 times to toggle on-screen parameters, including Altidude of aircraft central datum.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

the above test didn't work either. It still remains at the ARP alt. So I accepted that it won't work and can't be done. What would happen if I made another airport with just the flatten poly at the correct alt directly over the area without removing anything. Would it create the 'recess' in that area and leave the objects where they are? I know, it's a long shot. Just a thought though.

 

[GaryGB]

You already have RWYs you can use, so just copy the *.AD4 files as described above, giving the names I suggested, and make the recommended edits in each opened ADE project file.

Geographic coordinates are precise, so you should not have any misalignment of AFD or CVX objects that are in separate *.AD4 files, and the compiled BGLs, all loaded from the same [top folder name]\Scenery sub- folder linked to an active Area layer in Scenery Library.

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

I do not yet know how far away from an ARP a AB Flatten compiled by SBuilderX needs to be in order to avoid being hijacked by an ARP.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

So load the Original AD4 remove everything except the area I want to work on, change the ARP alt to the alt I want to use, then change the airport data to reflect the new name, save the airport with the new name, then start my 'flight' at KWR1 and I should be able to 'drive' to KWR2 and be at the correct alt. I tried just making an airport over the area at the desired alt. but that just removed all the LC and left deep chasms on the sides, not really what I wanted.

 

[Tomt478]

Wouldn't that change the alt of the original airport?

 

[Tomt478]

Tried it, don't work. I'll leave this as something for others who may want to try, to do. The AD4 file is there for whoever wants to give it a shot. I, not going to try anymore, just too difficult to do, too many variables. Without extensive design knowledge, it can't be done. So, until someone actually does it and shows me that it can be done, I'm leaving it alone.

 

[GaryGB]

You can export the Taxi_Points from ADE, then edit the *.CSV Record Field sequence and process it to make a *.SHP file.

When imported to Google Earth as a CSV, they appear as "Radio_Button" type points with vector poly lines.

Appended to SBuilderX as a *.SHP file, you could assign the CVX Vector GUID for converting those Taxi_Point Vectors to Roads.

Thus, you need not be concerned about losing data / repeating"Road" vertex placement to convert ADE Taxiway Paths for Vehicles to CVX Vector Roads.

The (3) RWYs, Taxiways, Parking, and Aprons can all be made in SBuilderX or Sketchup if you are willing to not use airport ARPs.

But, we do not know that to be necessary yet, as you keep using assigned AB Flatten Altitudes under your CVX Vector objects.

Perhaps if you do not assign AB Flatten Altitudes under CVX Vector objects, if outside a ARP Test Radius, they may 'mesh cling'.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

The problem I had with everything is when I create a new airport for the area I was working on, unless I am willing to just completely sacrifice everything in that area and just re-build the entire area as one complete airport, which is a whole lotta work, I will be unable to 'line up' any roads with the existing roads in the original project, and my parking spot for that area will now become spot #1 instead of the #50 that it is in the original project. So traveling to the area from another spot ,say #48 to Spot#50 would not be possible because spot #50 will no longer be valid because it was then changed to spot#1 because the area is now a completely new airport. I tried it and creating new airports for every area just isn't feasible because of the 'other' problems it presents which I would now to compensate for and try to fix, it would just be too much headache that way, so creating new airports for each area, not the way I want to go. And as stated by you and figured out by me, it is not possible to create a recessed area in this project without completely re-designing the entire project from the ground up. I am going to try one other thing using SbuilderX, and that is to create a normal poly in the area, then gradually 'slope' it down to the 50ft mark and see if that will work. But making a single recessed poly is not going to work. This will be the last attempt, I don't want to spend any more time on doing something that possibly can't be done in the project's current configuration. It was just a passing idea anyway and isn't that pressing of an issue if I can't do it. If something can't be done, I just accept it. I do believe in the 'It's the best it can get" statement. FSX was not designed to be modified in this way. The designer of the program made it the best they could with the computing technology of the day it was created. I doubt he had in mind for people to start modifying things and did not write the program to be modified. In other words in his mind, it really is "the best it can be".

 

[GaryGB]

The problem I had with everything is when I create a new airport for the area I was working on, unless I am willing to just completely sacrifice everything in that area and just re-build the entire area as one complete airport, which is a whole lotta work, I will be unable to 'line up' any roads with the existing roads in the original project

That is incorrect; did you not read my reply above ?

You can convert your Taxiway Path vehicle links to CVX Vector Roads with no change in precision alignment.

, and my parking spot for that area will now become spot #1 instead of the #50 that it is in the original project. So traveling to the area from another spot ,say #48 to Spot#50 would not be possible because spot #50 will no longer be valid because it was then changed to spot#1 because the area is now a completely new airport. I tried it and creating new airports for every area just isn't feasible because of the 'other' problems it presents which I would now to compensate for and try to fix, it would just be too much headache that way, so creating new airports for each area, not the way I want to go. And as stated by you and figured out by me, it is not possible to create a recessed area in this project without completely re-designing the entire project from the ground up. I am going to try one other thing using SBuilderX, and that is to create a normal poly in the area, then gradually 'slope' it down to the 50ft mark and see if that will work. But making a single recessed poly is not going to work.

I do understand that this is a scenery for a Flight Simulator, and flying is involved in use of this scenery.

But explain to me why you need 46 Parking spots ?

And why would you need to park in specific numbered Parking spots ?

This will be the last attempt, I don't want to spend any more time on doing something that possibly can't be done in the project's current configuration. It was just a passing idea anyway and isn't that pressing of an issue if I can't do it. If something can't be done, I just accept it. I do believe in the 'It's the best it can get" statement. FSX was not designed to be modified in this way. The designer of the program made it the best they could with the computing technology of the day it was created. I doubt he had in mind for people to start modifying things and did not write the program to be modified. In other words in his mind, it really is "the best it can be".

I daresay FSX can be modified in any way required ...if one learns how to do the work, and then does it.

The issue seems to be your willingness to do what is required to properly align and convert certain scenery content.

Since you stated you do not need / use AI Traffic, you can create saved flights to spawn aircraft for takeoff.

3D models and CVX vectors can substitute for airport objects with no requirement for use of ARPs or RWYs etc.


Thus far, it appears you may not be reading and/or comprehending the SDK Docs and linked threads, which make it clear there are types of CVX Road vectors which can be placed with- and without- an AB flatten attribute 'enabled'.

In short, there are numerous options you have not yet explored over a sufficient amount of time ...to allow learning.


Rather than repeatedly asserting certain tasks can not be done (that misleads other newbie readers here), it may be best to more consistently assert that you are not yet ready / willing / able to allocate the time to successfully do this.

IMHO, you should pace your self, and recognize physical limitations when recovering from COVID, and working on complex tasks of learning for what, IIUC, is likely many, many hours of sustained striving every day.

It would not be unreasonable for you to take breaks regularly, perhaps for longer periods of time, to prevent burnout.

If you need a timeout... by all means do so, and we are likely to still be here when you get back.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

Experimenting with different aircraft, I have found that if you land on top of a mountain where there are no polys, your alt will change when looking at the information using the Shift+Z , but if you land anywhere there is a poly used, no matter what alt you set that poly at, it will ALWAYS stay at the ARP Alt. If you remove the poly (and I mean every poly) from the same area, it will change to the alt of that area, but putting any type of poly, even a custom poly, will force the area to the ARP Alt. I haven't tested it using an Apron, but you can't adjust the alt. of an apron so it would be pointless, but I would assume if you could, it too would stay at ARP alt. So, it is not possible to create an area lower or higher than the ARP alt. You can set the alt for the entire airport, but you cannot make individual alt adjustments within an airport. Now it seems a bit strange that you can do this with Water Polys, but I guess FSX treats water polys differently. I have created small recess areas filled with water and they do work, you just can't do it with flattens. I'm not sure about using a Land Class poly, I might give that a try and see if that will create the 'valley' I am looking for.