MSFS20 Runway Start points issue

[FlyingsCool]

I think I'm reporting this for Alpha 11, so perhaps you've already addressed this, but....

So, when I read in KCON, I had it read in the default airport definition as a starting point, I created the project using ADE2020, and then did some work to get it consistent with the way I tend to create my airport projects (where the xml files reside, I add living world config and services stuff, I added Marketplace info, changed the content info to my default, little things like that) and started editing it in the scenery editor in MSFS.

I was going through the options for the runways and noticed that the start points were "missing". So I added them in the runway object for the runways.

Then I tried to compile the airport and it failed

Looked through the errors and it had duplicate start points.

By default, MSFS now includes the start points in the Runway definition like so

        <Runway lat="43.20655720449712" lon="-71.50119386277319" alt="103.85008193738759" heading="105.07199859619141" length="984.40997314453125" width="22.86000061035156" patternAltitude="92.90303802490234" surface="{2E0DE83F-B79A-4435-905C-DCBBEAC55C59}" transparent="FALSE" number="12" designator="NONE" primaryLanding="TRUE" primaryTakeoff="TRUE" primaryPattern="LEFT" secondaryLanding="TRUE" secondaryTakeoff="TRUE" secondaryPattern="LEFT" primaryMarkingBias="0.00000000000000" secondaryMarkingBias="0.00000000000000" groundMerging="FALSE" excludeVegetationAround="FALSE">
            <RunwayDeformation alt="103.632004" ratio="0.000000" controlPointBefore="0.000000" controlPointAfter="0.000000"/>
            <RunwayDeformation alt="104.241997" ratio="1.000000" controlPointBefore="0.000000" controlPointAfter="0.000000"/>
            <Coloration red="148" green="154" blue="159" alpha="255" override="TRUE"/>
            <Markings edges="FALSE" threshold="TRUE" alternateThreshold="FALSE" fixedDistance="FALSE" alternateFixedDistance="FALSE" touchdown="FALSE" alternateTouchdown="FALSE" dashes="TRUE" ident="TRUE" leadingZeroIdent="FALSE" precision="FALSE" alternatePrecision="FALSE" edgePavement="FALSE" singleEnd="FALSE" primaryClosed="FALSE" secondaryClosed="FALSE" primaryStol="FALSE" secondaryStol="FALSE" noThresholdEndArrows="FALSE"/>
            <Lights center="NONE" edge="MEDIUM"/>
            <OffsetThreshold end="PRIMARY" surface="{00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}" length="20.000000"/>
            <RunwayStart end="PRIMARY" lat="43.20760128188127" lon="-71.50651998447493" alt="104.71470215637237" heading="104.58634948730469"/>
            <RunwayStart end="SECONDARY" lat="43.20547030044240" lon="-71.49567615132545" alt="100.23726534657180" heading="285.07199096679688"/>
        </Runway>

Whereas when ADE2020 wrote out the airport definition xml, it put the Runway start points as separate objects at the end of the xml.

I also found the altitude of the runways to be wayyyy off. I think maybe it's metric height in feet, IOW, instead of 103 ft it was at 30 ft or something. I didn't figure out enough information to really report it as a bug, but you might want to look at it. It might be me, too? No idea.

 

[scruffyduck]

Alpha 11 is really out of date. There are bug fixes going on all the time so please ensure you are using the latest before reporting issues. The notes contain a change list for each alpha and also a list of known issues. Those I know about but haven't fixed yet

There are two types of start. One is embedded in the runway code and the other in the airport code as you found out. As far as I know this comes from the old FSX and ADE has always opted to generate start code at the airport level. I am not aware that this causes and issues in sim. It is possible to get duplicate start points but I think I have only seen that in projects started from old ADE projects.

 

[FlyingsCool]

Well, I haven't used ADE for a few weeks, and I only just found this forum. I read through and didn't see anyone report either of these items, so I thought I would. I assumed it would be better to start a new thread for each bug.

In this case, as I reported, it won't compile the airport with both start points created. Which makes sense. I prefer the embedded ones because I can edit them graphically with the scenery editor. I only discovered it by accident because I thought it was odd the editor said there were no start points.

 

[scruffyduck]

OK thanks. I have added this to my list. I want to make ADE as compatible with the in sim tools as possible. There are other start types than runways which need to stay part of the airport record but I should be able to accommodate both. It may take a little while since there is currently no support in ADE for starts in the runway record.

Thanks again for reporting this.

 

[scruffyduck]

I am going to add this to the known issues list. Looking at the implications of placing runway starts under the runway record indicates quite a bit of work. ADE since the start has only worked with starts under the airport record. I need to change ADE so that it handles the starts under the runway which are somewhat different in format than the airport starts. Any ADE project or pre MSFS bgl file used as the basis of a new project will need to be modified on load to move runway starts under the relevant runway. Source generation will need changing as will reading XML source back. Basically I am not currently sure of the best way to handle this but it isn't trivial. It won't be in alpha 14 but hopefully in alpha 15.

It will be implemented as soon as possible

 

[art209]

To start a flight in MSFS, you can select nodes for parking spots or runway ends as departure points. Selecting a runway end node puts the airplane at the runway end ready to takeoff. Just selecting the airport as the departure point puts you on a connecting taxiway nearest the active runway end, moving onto the runway at that point.

When I imported stock airport MYSM into ADE, start points were displayed at each end of the runway, and I left them there. After putting a package developed with ADE into the community folder, starting a flight with the runway end as the departure point results in the same scenario as just selecting the airport as the departure point (selecting the runway end has apparently been disabled even though the node still appear in MSFS). If the runway start points are eliminated in ADE, the runway no longer appears on the MSFS map and it's end nodes are gone as departure points.

 

[scruffyduck]

I hope to fix this over the coming days. It is a change in the way MSFS handles runway starts over FSX

 

[scruffyduck]

This has now been updated in ADE 2020 so that runway starts are in the runway record. What I have found odd, but not confirmed, is that MSFS seems to ignore the Starts. I tried placing a runway start in a location further up the runway but MSFS appears to ignore it and place the aircraft where it chooses

 

[GaryGB]

To start a flight in MSFS, you can select nodes for parking spots or runway ends as departure points. Selecting a runway end node puts the airplane at the runway end ready to takeoff. Just selecting the airport as the departure point puts you on a connecting taxiway nearest the active runway end, moving onto the runway at that point.

When I imported stock airport MYSM into ADE, start points were displayed at each end of the runway, and I left them there. After putting a package developed with ADE into the community folder, starting a flight with the runway end as the departure point results in the same scenario as just selecting the airport as the departure point (selecting the runway end has apparently been disabled even though the node still appear in MSFS). If the runway start points are eliminated in ADE, the runway no longer appears on the MSFS map and it's end nodes are gone as departure points.

Indeed, I had also noted this behavior with manually edited airport XML when exploring MSFS-2020 SDK airport "Start"-related issues in this thread:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/runway-and-other-starts.449914/#post-862647

GaryGB

 

[art209]

This has now been updated in ADE 2020 so that runway starts are in the runway record. What I have found odd, but not confirmed, is that MSFS seems to ignore the Starts. I tried placing a runway start in a location further up the runway but MSFS appears to ignore it and place the aircraft where it chooses

I assume that the runway end start points will no longer be an issue with alpha 14. If an alpha 13 created project is loaded in alpha 14 and compiled, will the runway end points function in MSFS? Or, will they function only if a project is started with alpha 14 from stock?

Art

 

[scruffyduck]

That is what I am seeing also. the starts are needed to allow the user to select a runway but they don't necessarily mark the position that the aircraft starts on. This is with ADE using the starts embedded in the runway record So far alphas have used starts embedded in the airport record. Seems these work in a similar way. Bottom line is a

 

[scruffyduck]

I assume that the runway end start points will no longer be an issue with alpha 14. If an alpha 13 created project is loaded in alpha 14 and compiled, will the runway end points function in MSFS? Or, will they function only if a project is started with alpha 14 from stock?

Art

ADE will remove old type starts from existing projects and replace them with the new ones

 

[scruffyduck]

Code testing is done here and ADE now uses Runway Starts which are part of the runway record. If a project was created by an earlier alpha (before 14), or a project is created from an ade project file or non MSFS bgl file then ADE will replace the old starts with the new runway starts and remove the old start. It will also remove any orphan runway starts left in the airport record - this should remove the risk of duplicate runway starts errors. ADE also no longer allow the user to create the old style runway starts but will continue to support HELIPAD and WATER starts.