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Still support FS9?

jtanabodee

Resource contributor
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3,924
Country
thailand
Hi,
I was wondering if you still support FS9 version. It is requested in every new airport. However less developers support that. And I am thinking that I will stop FS9 version too. There are a lot of reasons behind this:
  1. I need to chop down the satellite photos to 1024x1024. Need to make ground poly and apply those textures to that. It is quite a lot of work to do. And it need to be very accurate by hands. Photoscenery in FSX is much easier. Just put 4 corners coordinates an put that to resample.exe and you are done. If you have everything ready to do, you can finish it within minutes and get satellite photo which can curve around the terrain. Ground poly in FS9 takes me more than 10-15 hours of work to chop down the photo, to make night, season textures, set up material for each tile, apply to them, export, get it through MCX, convert texture to be DXT3 textures. If I have 30 tiles, I need to convert those textures 30x3 =90 times to be day, night and season textures (just only one season). If I have 4 seasons, I need to do it 30x6=180 times. OMG! The work that can be done in minutes has to do for days.
  2. FSX has round world model, FS9 has flat world model. The thing that has a lot of detail need to place individually, such as jetway and detail buildings. Things shift when you use the same coordinate on round world to flat world. I need to place hundred of things individually again in FS9 version. Not fun at all and it takes days to do that. No short cut to do.
  3. FSX is capable of larger texture sheet. I can use 2048x2048 or even bigger. But if I need to support FS9, I need to stick with 1024x1024 texture.
  4. Less and less people using FS9 today. It is 11-year program. Hardware today is capable to run FSX smoothly. If you play FS9 since day one, your hardware is 10+ years old. I think your computer need to change since it probably crash at any time.
Do you have any more reasons?
People keep thinking that FS9 version should be easier to do. No, it is not true at all.
Regards,
 
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I never have. I was going to until I realised how much effort it would be. It's not feasible for me.
 
I still support FS9 and will probably continue so in future development, only because I have never been able to run FSX with the same fluidity as FS9.
 
I still support FS9 and will probably continue so in future development, only because I have never been able to run FSX with the same fluidity as FS9.
I think you need to give FSX a try again. I use FSX steam edition and my hardware is just a decent one, i5 and GTX 730. I can run default airport at 50 fps.

Oh, man! I did something wrong with alpha channel. I need to get through each tile and do 180 texture sheets again.
 
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Honestly, I am quite content with using FS9. I see no reason why I need to change.....If no one else, wants to use what I am developing, that is fine with me....
 
I started to convert one of my sceneries (BC PNW Lighthouses Scenery) from FSX to FS9 but I encountered two annoying problems.

1. FS9 (at least on my computer which is an i7 with GTX 750 Ti) stutters when facing in the direction of a hardened surface, which is what I used for the lighthouse helipads.

2. Some of the lighthouses are located on very small islands which the FS9 mesh (custom 19m) couldn't render so the islands appeared flat in the sim.

After these two problems I realized that FSX was eminently better suited for this type of project.
 
Honestly, I am quite content with using FS9. I see no reason why I need to change.....If no one else, wants to use what I am developing, that is fine with me....
There is no problem if you want to make only one version. I still prefer most of the thing in FS9 such as the color of the ocean.
But it is quite a tedious job to do both version. Supporting both FS9 and FSX is not easy at all. P3D, FSX Steam and FSX are almost the same flatform. Round earth and flat earth model cause a lot of difficulties since coordinate of objects cannot be use together.
 
May I suppose it's the first time you (tried to) make something for FS9 ?

I think the above because making photoreal terrain doesn't take me that long for FS9. Actually, it take me ten times longer to build things for FSX. I wouldn't blame FSX for that but me not knowing how to speed up the process.

Support FS9 or not ?
Most FSX addons are payware. Users that can't buy addon often doesn't see FSX as another one may see it. FSX may run very smoothly, but quite uglier than FS9. That's what I have, so it's impossible for me to tell "I like FSX". I simply don't (yet). Since I'm a "visual"-type of person, what matters is what I see, not whether the earth is round.
But that's just me and it's not a relevant reason to decide if someone should support FS9 or not. And there are a lot of other similar facts, that are usually considered as relevant reasons while they aren't.

Keep it simple :
FS9 support just adds too much work ? or waste alot of time ? or requires too much learning curve ? Don't support FS9.
You don't use FS9 ? Don't support FS9.
You lack some handy FS9 specific tools like FSRegen ? Don't support FS9.
You still enjoy FS9 ? Support for FS9.

Just don't ask, you'll always have contradicting opinions. And that's what they are : just opinions !
Whatever you do, there are people who will like it and other who won't. Don't mind the later, they just should do better if they could (and most of the time, they aren't capable of)

If you are still unsure, just assume one principle : FS9 addicted should learn to create addons for FS9. That's what I did for some vintage games I like, and FS9 btw. No need to ask someone to support this or that, if I need, I do it myself...
 
May I suppose it's the first time you (tried to) make something for FS9 ?

I think the above because making photoreal terrain doesn't take me that long for FS9. Actually, it take me ten times longer to build things for FSX. I wouldn't blame FSX for that but me not knowing how to speed up the process.

Support FS9 or not ?
Most FSX addons are payware. Users that can't buy addon often doesn't see FSX as another one may see it. FSX may run very smoothly, but quite uglier than FS9. That's what I have, so it's impossible for me to tell "I like FSX". I simply don't (yet). Since I'm a "visual"-type of person, what matters is what I see, not whether the earth is round.
But that's just me and it's not a relevant reason to decide if someone should support FS9 or not. And there are a lot of other similar facts, that are usually considered as relevant reasons while they aren't.

Keep it simple :
FS9 support just adds too much work ? or waste alot of time ? or requires too much learning curve ? Don't support FS9.
You don't use FS9 ? Don't support FS9.
You lack some handy FS9 specific tools like FSRegen ? Don't support FS9.
You still enjoy FS9 ? Support for FS9.

Just don't ask, you'll always have contradicting opinions. And that's what they are : just opinions !
Whatever you do, there are people who will like it and other who won't. Don't mind the later, they just should do better if they could (and most of the time, they aren't capable of)

If you are still unsure, just assume one principle : FS9 addicted should learn to create addons for FS9. That's what I did for some vintage games I like, and FS9 btw. No need to ask someone to support this or that, if I need, I do it myself...

Relax Mr Stephen.

I didn't blame that FS9 is not good. I would say that I really like FS9 more than FSX. The bluish sea in FSX make me sick. Ground poly in FS9 is crisp and clear than FSX photoscenery. Lots of things are still good in FS9. There are FS9 version in all of my previous airports. I think I have more than five airports in FS9 version. I think I even have a tutorial for making Ground poly in my language and I have a tutorial here how to solve white lines between each tiles of satellite images.

But I only say that supporting BOTH versions is a very tedious job. I need to do the same thing twice. If you only work for one version, it is not a problem at all. However supporting both versions is quite a big job. I would like to know if there are anyone experience the same thing and have solution to do that faster.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't meant to be rough, nor express someting looking like a rant. I'm just not good at english. Don't worry :) (I should have put a nice smiley and I reckon putting some text in bold could be interpreted as shouting - I wasn't, I just wanted to highlight the correct decision to take)

Bottom line is : priority is FSX, just as simple as that :) Why ? Because FSX is even greater than FS9... if only anyone could have global landclass coverage, airports layouts, commercial/military/general aviation flyable aircraft and AI... just to name a few. All of that is already available for FS9, and if there were voids, other developpers can create alternate versions for FS9. You, as a developper, if you find it time consuming to provide support for both, correct decision - I think - is supporting FSX/P3D first, then see if something can be done for FS9. I, as an end user, wouldn't blame you if you don't support FS9. That doesn't make FS9 less enjoyable, but definately make the day I'll enjoy FSX more than FS9 come sooner. You are the developper, you decide ;)

Solutions to speed up FS9 generation : automate things with scripts/tools (command lines on ressample/imagetool, Photoshop scripts, excell spreadsheets, various third parties applications, etc.) If I were to rely only on the provided SDK, I would have got bored long ago. Unlike Arno (and many others), I'm not good at creating user friendly applications, rather merging anything related to FS developpement (whatever version) in an application I started to build more than ten years ago, and still in an unlimited developement state, unfortunately :/ ) Just take ModelConverterX and merge it with AI Flight Planner and GMax, and you get an idea of the thing. My forum ID is just how I named that application. What I can do, if you or someone else were to create a tool to produce FS9 tiles in a faster way, is look in the codes and see if there is anything useful I can give. But on this terrain topic, my application just mimick what SBuilder can do along with the SDK, so nothing magic on that side. It still takes very long to process the textures. By the way, it heavily relies on the SDK because I didn't implemented support for R8 bitmaps (yet - and I don't think I'll have time to)
 
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I found more problem not only the processing. My fps in fs9 drop to 15 fps! There is only one 60-tiles-ground poly in the scenery. I guess tha textures load are too much for the memory.
 
Aaaaaahhh ! I didn't read carefully. It's ground polygons. I thought it was photoreal terrain.

Yeah you're right, if the terrain is not flat, it takes a lot of time to generate meshes and beta test the scenery to make sure the polygons blends well with the surrounding terrain.

Okay. One workaround is use VTP polygons with SBuilder to convert the bitmaps to VTP indices. That way you don't need to create polygons while the photo terrain uses the mesh. But I'm unsure wheter you can have seasonal variations with that technique, never tried.
Otherwise, to ease things, flattens every possible surface and use only two triangles quads per texture sheet. I use GMax to create the squares for the 1024x1024 textures. Areas where flattens cannot be applied must be created triangle per triangle. It also depends on whether you want to make your ground "landable", ie platforms meshes (which should be processed apart, while the textured polygons are just visual object with collision disabled)

Shuttering is an FS9 issue on ground polygons. To avoid them :
- use mipmaps (blurry textures on some video cards - unfortunately)
- Convert 32bits to Dxt3
- remove crashtree in ASM for your ground poly
- I don't remember which one is better : using multimaterial on one single entire ground polygon and various textures like you did, or separate each square surface and export them one by one with one single drawcall per square surface. I think the later is the worse but I've never used more than a dozen 1024 sheets textures, so never made the comparison.
- One classic (but uglier) workaround is not use tons of 1024 textures. Instead, create as many small tarmac/grass/whatever generic ground textures as required (to be tiled), either programmatically, or manually adapting each from small portions from the already available satellite imagery. Save that as 256² or 512² bitmap generic. Draw polygons limits for the various ground textures perfectly following your initial ground mesh, then apply the textures, tiled, per area. What you get is very sharp ugly edges between areas. Create low resolution textures of your initial satellite imagery, by reducing the initial size by a factor of 2 or 4 (you save from 3 to 12 times memory consumption) Then recreate new 1024² textures sets from the reduced resolution, and apply them to your initial poly mesh with a translucent factor to make them blend above the tiled generic grounds (remove unnecessary triangles from the mesh) Export with FS2002 SDK and custom ASM edits or use MCX (never tried though, always did it kind of "manual") That way, you'll recreate the general photoreal aspect of the airport, not as beautiful as with the original very detailed textures, but using much less memory resources. If you aren't happy with the global blending transparency (which is understandable) you should treat the blending through alpha channel, per low res texture... Lot of work.. unless you have a graphic tool that can create adaptating alpha using beziers curves. Photoshop can, but I use a tool of mine instead.
- along with the previous, you can aswell process your satellite imagery through ressample SDK to have a third (very low resolution) layer below the two other, then make your generic tiled textures a bit translucent. That way, you take advantage of the auto generated "noise" (granularity) of the terrain texture, to reduce the look of the blurred pixels. And, when you have terrain LODs shiftings, the defaut terrain doesn't bleed throught that much.

FS9 has a lot of drawcall issues and there are things you simply can't avoid (yeah, there are many great improvements since FSX - FS9 is more than ten years old technology)
60 1024² tiles in view is 60Mb in memory at Dxt3 or 246Mb at 32Bits. Not really a big deal unless you have many detailed structures, library objects, AI traffic and other terrain and environment addons (plus the sound and effects files loaded in memory and perhaps one PMDG user flyable, it quickly rockets...). And I doubt FS9 can handle extended memory anyway (no matter you have 4, 16 or 32Gb RAM, it's like you are limited to 3.7Gb).

If you must use the 60 hires textures for product quality, there's nothing much you can do, except reducing memory loads elsewhere :
- increase LOD shifts from usual 3 LODs to 6 for structures, vegetation, light poles, various objects
- use visibility conditions depending on user point of view
- reduce texture count by improving the used surface per texture
- select framerate friendly libraries or create new ones with improved LOD-ings and textures usage
- Reduce drawcalls by grouping every structure using the same texture in one single mdl export
- use less keyframes in animations wherever possible
...
- by the way, delete unused materials before exporting any object to mdl. FS constantly tries to find the missing textures; at least, for aircraft models I'm sure of.


EDIT : I guess what I've just written is exactly what you wanted to avoid (massive work) Different technologies requires different processings. FSX capabilitites is wider than FS9 is able of. That's also why I suggested to keep things simple. The more you create wonderful things for FSX, the more you have people moving on and go FSX/P3D. I will, like anyone else. I think after this, it's clearer why I don't demand you to have support for FS9. Reducing quality for better performance may not serve you. Instead, one can volunteer himself to carefully go through the whole process to fill the gap, rather than forcing you to find time you may not have, compromising the project with delays and mixed results. Supporting both FS versions is indeed very difficult.
 
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I think I will continue working on FS9 version.
I need to decrease the ground polygons to 12 plate of satellite photos. It works much better.
Problem of objects coordinate is not much. I use bridge that connect between terminal and the jetway separately. Jetways are still in place since there position relate to the bridge. The bridge position shift a bit but acceptable. The light poles in some places shift significantly.

I think if anyone wants to support FS9 should not make groundpoly for satellite photo more than 20. I think it takes too much time to do and it is quite a heavy load to the FS9 which is 10+ year program.

This is 60-plate ground poly.

Fs9-60.jpg


This is 12-plate ground poly

FS9-12 plate.jpg


Not too much different at this view angle. But getting closure will reveal the different of detail. However it loads much better, no stuttering.

May be next celebration is not a century of flight but a century of flight sim program, FS9. in 2104!
 
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