Animation export to glTF?

[arno]

Hi all,

I have been looking at the possibility to export animations to the glTF format from ModelConverterX. Technically it is almost possible, but there is an ethical choice to make here.

Given that the glTF format can be imported into modelling tools like Blender, exporting a full FSX/P3D (aircraft) model with animations to the glTF format would also make it a lot easier to steal somebody else's work. Until now ModelConverterX can only export animations to the MDL format and not export a model with full animations to modelling tools. As such a more generic animation exporting functionality would make piracy easier, I'm thinking it might not be a good idea to release this functionality without a form of protection.

This poll is to check what the position of developers is on this choice. Do you think animation export should be available generally or not? And if not, do you have good ideas on how to allow genuine developers to do their work, while limiting people who want to steal models?

I have three options in mind now to limit this feature:

• The animation export functionality will only be made available to well known developers with a proven track record that they respect the work of others. How to exactly judge this I'm not sure about yet,
• The ability to export animations will only be available for animations that you added in ModelConverterX. This would allow to add an animation to a SketchUp model for example, but would prevent exporting animations from models loaded from BGL or MDL files.
• The ability to export animations will only be available if the modeldef.xml of the user contains the definitions of all custom animations. Theoretically if you made the aircraft yourself you should have them all. But I do know we tried this a few years back and it didn't work that well for many genuine developers either, so then I reverted it again.

Looking forward to hear your inputs!

 

[OzWookiee]

This is going to be a godsend for converting aircraft where the original source is no longer available (hdd crash, etc. etc.) or in a locked legacy format (GMax). In these cases quite often the original modeldef is lost as well (all original sources) so locking that behind needing the original modeldef I don't think is necessary. Besides, aside from exporting with animations there is still a considerable amount of work to be done to get the aircraft into a usable state in the sim (currently going through a couple conversions myself).

I certainly appreciate that this tool, like many many others out there can be used for ill purposes and it's a hard line to walk between making something useable and helping to protect sources, however this only really applies to legacy formats now since the new sim uses an open format that can very easily be adjusted as required with several tools already out there. But at the same time it is an incredible and dare I say indispensible tool to many a developer out there from conversations I've seen.

1. The animation export functionality will only be made available to well known developers with a proven track record that they respect the work of others. How to exactly judge this I'm not sure about yet
   
   Yes this will be very hard and is subject to personal opinion and despite this a version will get into the wild and it wont matter. How do you track if a developer is "proven" or not? What about new developers? How do we become "proven"?
   
   
2. The ability to export animations will only be available for animations that you added in ModelConverterX. This would allow to add an animation to a SketchUp model for example, but would prevent exporting animations from models loaded from BGL or MDL files.
   
   Yes I can see the attraction for this for those converting from other 3D packages that may not have all the tools required. However this then blocks anyone wanting to convert assets where either the original source is unavailable or is in a legacy locked format that cannot be exported with animations (I'm looking at YOU Gmax! )
   
   
3. The ability to export animations will only be available if the modeldef.xml of the user contains the definitions of all custom animations. Theoretically if you made the aircraft yourself you should have them all. But I do know we tried this a few years back and it didn't work that well for many genuine developers either, so then I reverted it again.
   
   Well looks like this option didn't work the last time so I very much doubt it will work this time either

I have over the last few years been delving into FS Development and do hope to have a couple of personal aircraft come out next year, however I have been working on several conversions (with original developer permission of course) for a couple of years now (soooo much to learn) and now I find I have more projects that folks would like a hand in converting to MSFS which I wouldn't be able to do without a tool like MCX! Having the ability to export animations will be a god send for anyone seeking to transfer any assets into this new sim. I'm assuming there will be cleanup and hook-up invlolved with the new materials, ModelBehaviours etc etc but it is going to allow for a much more rapid pace of development on these fronts. And whilst I have STILL to release a conversion of my own, I'm very honoured to have been a part of several other releases.

Piracy, is a fact of life. Do I like it? No. Have I been affected by it? Well I'm not a "proven" developer yet with anything official released so again, no. The fact of the matter though is that the minute you come up with a way to "beat the pirates", that method is broken within 5mins (OK slight exaggeration) of it being released. Like it or not, that's reality. MCX, like any tool, can be used for legitimate or dodgy purposes. I honestly think though, that the benifit is going to greatly outweigh any perceived negatives.

 

[Deano1973]

Flight Simulator survived for many years without support from Microsoft largely because of the work of freeware developers, both creating their own content and converting FS2004 and other legacy models into the new FSX and P3D formats. This was in large part due to the presence of Model Converter X. While it is true that piracy will always exist, that's never a reason to hand them a free pass to steal developer's work.

No true developer, new or established, should ever need, or seek to need, to steal another developer's work. Thus, there is no need to include animations unless we're talking about special cases such as lost source files etc. I myself have seen my freeware P-61C source files corrupted, sadly, so a new project would need a new build. In this case, a new version of MCX that can export with animations would be awesome, the need justified, and as an established developer, it's in safe hands. I'm also more than happy for others whom I know, to undertake the work on my behalf. However, take a pirate, who converts my P-61C and sells it as their own, or loads it with malware and distributes it as a DC Designs freeware product? You can see how that's going to work out, and I don't want my name on it, no matter how much others may think it's "okay and inevitable"!

It's important that we maintain our freeware industry, but not at the potential cost of developer's livelihoods and incomes. I spent ten years as a successful thriller author before becoming a successful developer. I've lost probably tens of thousands of dollars of sales to piracy of both books and now flight simulator aircraft. It's easy to say that we should allow animations to be included when you're not making a living doing it. It's surprising how quickly opinions change when you are. I'd prefer to see this function kept in the hands of established developers, and it's easy to see who they are - they actually release their own stuff, be it pay-ware or freeware, and they're a part of the community. We're not a huge community either, so we soon get to know each other. It's not going to be hard to tell a pirate from an honest developer, and although inevitably the program will eventually indeed be obtained by pirates, again, why make it easy for them?

Keep MCX in the same general format as it's always been, except for the owners of original works and those with track records of honest development / those with referrals from honest developers. It's not rocket science.

 

[Lagaffe]

Hi,
I agree with precedent posts and with their arguments.

Until now, it was possible to convert an MDL into a 3DS file with a message to warn of limits and constraints to be respected. This was a function that had been available for a very long time.
If it was possible before and if everyone thought it was correct, I don't see any contraindication to continue in this way while keeping the alerts about the ownership of the source and the respect of copyrights.
The option of restricting to experienced developers is also interesting, but how to distinguish an experienced from a beginner, who will be able to pronounce this differentiation?
When I started 12 years ago to create aircrafts, I learned a lot by studying other people's creations, that doesn't mean that I used their model to usurp their work : the freeware that I distributed are all original models never approached by anyone or developments made with the agreement of the initial authors who gave me the honour to transmit me their sources (Fravin and Franckart for the Cesnna 150).

Malicious people have always existed and will always unfortunately exist.
My 2 cents.

 

[FlightGirl]

I voted yes... Pirates will always find a way since they have "the motivation" to steal anyway. So the only one getting a harder time by resticticting things are the honest ones.

I don't usually work that much on models myself; -but I have used modelconverter to inspect how it has been done, to learn or debug, and to experiment locally (i.e. on how to tigger opening hangars and also how to add seasonal textures on top of buildings), and also to get a 3d-display of content.

I've also seen people using it for repainting in 3d.

-So my point is: there's a lot of legit usage (even more than we can imagine). And it's those creative souls that will miss out.

The pirates have to be handled by other methods. like contacting the publishers and report them. -We could even use it to use this to gather evidence to prove rip-offs....

So make the best tool, and use other means to stop piracy. (.... just a thought at the end: maybe a simple way to stop the "dumbest" pirates can be to tag some objects, or make a fed dummy-objects ...well, I don't know, but you get what I mean I think)

 

[DaveWG]

It's certainly a tricky one! As a freeware developer going back to FS 2002, I've seen my work ripped off, modified, sold, you name it. I expect MCX was used for some of these, but I don't blame MCX itself. I've used it myself to mod and convert other models for my own use, to look at models to see how something was done and numerous other things. It's an invaluable tool in so many ways.
I think I'm in favour of a "trusted developer" approach, with the animation capability as a kind of Pro feature. Obviously it won't be a fool proof method but it may deter some.
I wonder if it's possible to embed some kind of ID into the gltf file? Probably won't help much as it could easily be edited out.

 

[Alexis]

I am in favour of exporting animations, but conditionally. The idea of making developers Register MCX to be able to do it is one way, screening potential candidates.

The other way is to only export if you have the modeldef file that contains the animations. This should limit piracy when it comes to payware. Freeware releases which mostly used the default modeldef file are still at risk, though.

While I am sure it will be misused by some, the merits far outweigh the problems. Lots of developers are stuck without Gmax or 3ds max and some gems will be lost. MCX provides a way out of such dead ends, while also making the jump to MSFS easier.

 

[Lagaffe]

For your information, do you know theses projects:
- https://github.com/flybywiresim/a32nx/issues/604 (importer/exporter for glTF)
- https://github.com/bestdani/msfs2blend (importer v0.2)

=>

 

[arno]

For your information, do you know theses projects:
- https://github.com/flybywiresim/a32nx/issues/604 (importer/exporter for glTF)
- https://github.com/bestdani/msfs2blend (importer v0.2)

Nope, hadn't seen those. But importing from glTF is not really the discussion here. Once you save your model in glTF format and release that it is kind of open. The question is if an old MDL object should be convertible to this open format.

 

[Paul Domingue]

@arno,

Now that you have released the Genie from the bottle it will be difficult to ignore. IMHO you should implement it but also implement a well developed CYA condition.

It will require some extra work but consider a verification method such as purchasing MCX for a small fee to cover processing and recording. The purchase prefaced by a strong disclaimer and requiring a major credit card that would be added to your records. The identification through the card would discourage most would be pirates. Including an embedded serial # in MCX that can be attached to the purchase record should be considered. Any updates to MCX should then be made available to legitimate users through an account previously created during the original purchase process.

I understand that this may be quite a bit of work but it just might be the best way to go. You have put a tremendous amount of time and effort into MCX and I for one would not mind at all supplying my credentials and CC to have the latest development.
Mull it through. I'm sure you can refine this idea.

Sincerely

Paul

 

[arno]

Hi Paul,

I'll do some thinking about it. The idea of locking it in a Pro version was mentioned a few months ago when we discussed something similar for exporting animations to COLLADA and FBX.

But I am not sure having to buy something will scare pirates away, even if that means some of their data will be stored.

 

[rhumbaflappy]

Asobo was working on a method of obfuscating or encrypting assets if desired by the developer. That would resolve all the issues about including anything in MCX from an unencrypted asset.

 

[Paul Domingue]

Hi Paul,

I'll do some thinking about it. The idea of locking it in a Pro version was mentioned a few months ago when we discussed something similar for exporting animations to COLLADA and FBX.

But I am not sure having to buy something will scare pirates away, even if that means some of their data will be stored.

We are never going to eliminate pirating but you do need to protect your product name and reputation. If MCX becomes the go to tool for pirating that would cast a shadow over your work. Protect that reputation as best you can.

 

[arno]

Asobo was working on a method of obfuscating or encrypting assets if desired by the developer. That would resolve all the issues about including anything in MCX from an unencrypted asset.

I don't think it does Dick. That protects your MSFS addon. But it doesn't help if MCX can export to glTF and thus open your FSX or P3D model towards Blender.

 

[Cheese-Strike]

I got the base model of the Basler BT-67 freeware Manfred Jahn and my team worked on some years ago.
It's either an old Gmax model or the old FSX mdl, sadly I don't got the modeldef.xml so it's quite impossible to export it to newer sims or implement things like PBR without doing all animations again...

Sounds pretty interesting on my opinion!

 

[Paul Domingue]

I got the base model of the Basler BT-67 freeware Manfred Jahn and my team worked on some years ago.
It's either an old Gmax model or the old FSX mdl, sadly I don't got the modeldef.xml so it's quite impossible to export it to newer sims or implement things like PBR without doing all animations again...

Sounds pretty interesting on my opinion!

Load the MDL file into MCX and you will be able to extract the modeldef.xml code. Any custom animation will be marked as such.

 

[arno]

Hi all,

I have now technically finished implementing the animation export functionality. Using it I have been able to export models with animations to glTF and use them in MSFS or import them into Blender. The fact that it is now possible to take a model with animations into Blender is really useful for developers who want to port their old work and have lost the sources (or are stuck in GMax). But now that I have seen it working I am also convinced that some kind of copyright protection is needed.

So at the moment this functionality is not released yet. I'll first figure out what restrictions should be added for copyright protection. Once I have an idea on that balance I'll post the plan here to check if it is feasible. Although 2/3 of you voted to release this in general, I don't feel that is a good idea.

 

[bredok]

I'm working to a project of an aircraft. I think this tool can be very helpfull to understand how the new sdk work, because the new animation system is very very difficult(for me)!

 

[arno]

Hi all,

I did some more thinking about how to balance this functionality. What I have come up with now is shown in the flowchart below. It basically means that animations loading from compiled FS objects (MDL, BGL) can't be exported to glTF. I can't find something in between that allows the author to export the animations, but others not to. Simply because there is no easy way to proof the authorship.

I have also considered the option to have a license on this function, but I don't think that I can judge fairly who should have a license and who not. And I am not convinced that a certain prize on the license would scare the people who try to steal work away.

If there are other thoughts on how to balance this, I am happy to consider them. As I do also understand that restricting animation export when loading from MDL files will restrict many of you.

 

[JanMartinHamburg]

Hi Arno, why not implementing a check function that requires to open an original developers file like *.gmax additionally, and MCX just compares the content or so with the content of the *.mdl file that is due to be converted?

I would really like to convert my HSST (see showroom subforum) model, for which I still have all original GMAX design files, to native MSFS format, since I cannot solve some few problems, which I think are related to the day/night switch that is not available for export out of GMAX.

Will you also block the conversion of scenery files to glTF, or is it just about animated flightsim objects? I have lots of conversions of sceneries I once created for FS2004 in the pipeline ...