FSX Here's a tough one.................

[Tomt478]

Ok, here's a challenge....

Here goes, my entire "airport" is 5000ft. Above Sea Level (ARP), I have a lake that is 100ft. Below Ground Level. So the ARP is 5000ft., the lake is at 4900ft. (100ft )Below the ARP. Now, I have an island which is above the lake. This puts the surface of the island at the ARP level which is 5000ft. Ok, that all works fine, looks great, everything A.O.K. Now, what I need is a way to get over to the island by land vehicle. If I use a Vehicle Link, it raises the lake to the ARP, so I can't do that. I tried using a bridge that I had made a while back to see if I could just go over a bridge, but that doesn't work because I can't adjust the height of different areas of that bridge, it is just a straight bridge that can't be altered except for the altitude. So, is there a way I could possibly make some sort of pathway at ARP level to go over to the island? I'm willing to use SBuilder if I have to, but would prefer not if at all possible.

 

[GaryGB]

In Sketchup, make a 3D model of a bridge, texture it, and import it to MCX.

In MCX Attached Object Editor, add a 'Platform' concrete attribute hardened surface via the 3D model bridge Road texture.


FYI: If the bridge 3D model extent is longer than 100 Meters, you may next wish to also use MCX Earth curve correction editor:

See: 6.10 Earth curve correction editor


Use MCX Object Placement Editor to assign Altitude in AMSL mode to 'place it.

This requires setting AltitudeIsAGL=False


As recently as 2019 MCX referred to to AMSL mode as "Absolute Altitude"; IIRC another FS utility by 'gadgets' did the same.

AFAIK, Arno has subsequently corrected MCX to use the term AGL- rather than Absolute- with regard to Altitude.


Sink the bridge 3D model base- and ends- into adjacent terrain (aligning bridge road surface with surrounding terrain surfaces).

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/altitude.446488/post-833742


BTW: If a MCX Earth curve correction editor bridge 3D model edit causes "fall-through", extend its base to sink deeper into terrain.


NOTE: MCX' PDF Manual is in the MCX installation root folder; use the latest development release of MCX linked here:

https://www.scenerydesign.org/latest-release/modelconverterx_latest_development_release.zip


Open the PDF in a web browser for keyword searches throughout the entire PDF file (faster than using Adobe Acrobat Reader DC)

See: Sections 6.6 Attached object editor and 6.3 Object placement editor


https://www.google.com/search?q=site:+www.fsdeveloper.com+MCX+Attached+Object+Editor+platform+bridge&sca_esv=7466096905fafdc9&ei=F46ZaMKvNJeLptQP88eZkAE&ved=0ahUKEwiCl66DkYKPAxWXhYkEHfNjBhIQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=site:+www.fsdeveloper.com+MCX+Attached+Object+Editor+platform+bridge&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiRHNpdGU6IHd3dy5mc2RldmVsb3Blci5jb20gTUNYIEF0dGFjaGVkIE9iamVjdCBFZGl0b3IgcGxhdGZvcm0gYnJpZGdlSLJUUPcHWIZCcAJ4AJABAJgBhAGgAbUEqgEDNS4xuAEDyAEA-AEB-AECmAIBoAKcAcICBRAAGO8FmAMAiAYBkgcDMC4xoAfNB7IHAzAuMbgHnAHCBwM0LTHIBxM&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

Ok,I already have a bridge that I made with Sketchup a few months ago. It already has a base and a solid surface, but it is a straight bridge and isn't "Curved" to make the ends "attach" to both the airport surface and the Island surface. Remember that the island surface is at the ARP level (5000ft.) and the airport ground is also at 5000ft, but the lake "water" is at 4900 feet (100ft.below the ARP level) I need a 'drivable' bridge that can extend over the lake from the airport to the island that won't raise the water level back to the ARP level loosing the 'sunk-in' effect of the lake. I want the lake to remain at the 4900ft. level. I have tried using the bridge (I'd really love to use it because I spent a lot of time working on it) to just make a link between the top of the hill surrounding the lake over to the island, but the ends of the bridge seem to be 'sunk-in' the ground and not laying on top of the ground on either end. At the start of the bridge it is sunk-in at the 4900ft. level (I could deal with that, I can always drive down the slope to enter the bridge, that's fine) , but the other end (the island) is always sunk-in and no matter how far I put the bridge onto the island, it always sinks into the water instead of being on dry land of the island making my vehicle always hit the water at the end of the bridge. I haven't tried using the earth curve function in MCX yet. I will see what comes up with that and get back to you. It sounds feasible. All I have to do is get the bridge to attach to the top of the airport slope and the island. the bridge works fine, I've used it before, but that was over even terrain and not over a lake that is below the ARP, that seems to be quite a challenge.

Oh, and FYI: I figured out how to make sloped terrain in ADE and how to make islands. It took me several months to figure it out, but finally did. I've learned that developement just takes time and you just have to take breaks every now and then and you will eventually get it.You have been a big help. Thanks, and I will try the 'earth curve' thing and let you know how it turns out, have to kinda read back up on using MCX, been a while since I used it.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Tom:

I am not quite able to visualize what you describe with the bridge positioning issue in your current FSX configuration.

If you post (1) or more screenshots here, with labels using ex: MS-Paint, readers may be able to better follow what you described in text.


IIUC, you assume the bridge must always be perfectly level to the underlying ground; it can instead be sloped when placed via "Pitch".

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/microsoft-esp/cc526978(v=msdn.10)#sceneryobject

"
SceneryObject

This element is used to designate an object"s placement in the world. It can be used to specify the lat, lon, alt position of the object, and the pitch, bank and heading to be applied. This element is allowed to contain Bias, Beacon, Effect, GenericBuilding, LibraryObject, Trigger, Windsock, AttachedObject data and should not be terminated with "/>". The AttachedObject entry must be the last.

<SceneryObject
               lat=" 32.69398294"
               lon=" -16.77601783"
               alt="0"
               altitudeIsAgl="TRUE"
               pitch="0"
               bank="0"
               heading="0"
               imageComplexity="NORMAL">
    <!-- Scenery object data elements -->
    <BiasXYZ
             biasX="0"
             biasY="0"
             biasZ="0"/>
    <!-- Optional -->
    <LibraryObject name="GUID"
                   scale="1.0"/>
    <AttachedObject ......>
    <!-- Optional -->
    </AttachedObject>
</SceneryObject>

However, the best is to pre-plan the slope and implement it in Sketchup relative to the base plane of the bridge object.

That may impact the angle support pillars etc. may descend to the ground so they do not look odd compared to IRL.

Most such objects could have their 'grouped' support pillars edited with the "Rotate Tool", then re-textured


Or one can just group the object, then use "Rotate Tool" to impose a desired pitch matching the FSX target terrain configuration.

Whether / how awkward the support pillar angles look relative to the ground in the context of a local scene depends on how long it is.

How far away is the island shoreline from the adjacent (main-)land terrain surface ?

GaryGB

 

[tgibson]

Just my experience, but pitch never seemed to work for me in FSX. Worked fine in FS 2004 and P3 D though.

 

[GaryGB]

Indeed, FSX / P3D Pitch placement was disabled by DrawCall Batching, which many do via MCX output processing of 3D models

Here's Google AI's take on the topic (...not sure that info is entirely correct, though):

https://www.google.com/search?q=FSX+/+P3D+Pitch+placement+disabled+by+DrawCall+Batching&client=firefox-b-1-e&sca_esv=bf242ef3a2c390d8&channel=entpr&ei=VkmaaPTYKqW2ptQPs5yrwQE&ved=0ahUKEwj027zMw4OPAxUlm4kEHTPOKhgQ4dUDCBA&oq=FSX+/+P3D+Pitch+placement+disabled+by+DrawCall+Batching&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiN0ZTWCAvIFAzRCBQaXRjaCBwbGFjZW1lbnQgZGlzYWJsZWQgYnkgRHJhd0NhbGwgQmF0Y2hpbmcyCBAAGIAEGKIEMggQABiABBiiBDIFEAAY7wVItDZQuQdY-yhwAXgAkAEAmAFwoAHKAaoBAzEuMbgBDMgBAPgBAvgBAZgCA6AC3wHCAg4QABiABBiwAxixAxiDAcICDRAAGIAEGLADGEMYigXCAhEQABiABBiwAxixAxiDARiKBcICCBAAGIAEGLADwgILEAAYgAQYsAMYsQPCAhQQLhiABBiwAxixAxiDARjIA9gBAcICGhAuGIAEGLADGLEDGNEDGIMBGMcBGMgD2AEBwgITEC4YgAQYsAMYQxjIAxiKBdgBAcICFxAuGIAEGLADGLEDGNEDGMcBGMgD2AEBwgIOEC4YgAQYsAMYyAPYAQHCAhQQLhiABBiwAxjRAxjHARjIA9gBAcICFxAuGIAEGLADGLEDGIMBGMgDGIoF2AEBwgIFECEYoAGYAwCIBgGQBhS6BgYIARABGAiSBwMyLjGgB74IsgcDMS4xuAfTAcIHBzAuMS4xLjHIBw8&sclient=gws-wiz-serp


BTW: This was an interesting application of those MCX processing and placement options ...for a G-Poly:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/sloped-ground-polygon.443521/post-805331

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

I don't know the distance in feet, but it is about 1 square away from the adjacent shore. The actual main shore is at GL which is 5000ft , the island surface is also at GL, but the lake (water surface) is 4900ft below GL. All I want to do is place a bridge across the lake over to the island. It should be easy since the island surface is at the same alt as the main shore surface. You'd think I could just place the bridge across the gap and set the bridge to the correct alt. but it don't work that way for some reason.

 

[GaryGB]

I don't know the distance in feet, but it is about 1 square away from the adjacent shore.

1 "square" in which application workspace ...ex: ?

ADE ?

SBuilderX ?

SDK TMFViewer ?

IIUC, you may refer to the ADE 'arbitrary' units grid, or the FS TMF Quad LOD / QMID grid in SBuilderX or SDK TMFViewer.

You should be able to "place" the 3D model independent of any airport or terrain rendering subsystem using MCX.

In MCX Object Placement, the Altitude units in Meters can be set to "AMSL" Altitude for the base of the bridge.


BTW: If you have changed Altitudes for any default FSX or previously created custom Airports in ADE, a _ALT BGL may exist.

Those _ALT BGLs are "stub" airport BGLs made automatically by ADE when Altitude is re-assigned at an existing ARP.

When output, they are written into:

[FSX install path]\Scenery\World\Scenery sub-folder; you may wish to see what is in there.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

I am refering to the grid squares in ADE. I tried doing all of this in Sbuilder, but that really messed things up, the bridge wound up sunken undergraound and doesn't even show up except for the top of it.
I have a question though, does AGL refer to the "sea Level" or does that refer to the "Ground Level" of the airport? In other words, is AGL the same as my ARP which is 5000ft above Sea Level or is it 0ft at Sea Level?

I've been trying to place the bridge over the 100ft gap between the island and the base shore which is 5000ft above Sea Level. I place my bridge leaving the altitude at 0 AGL, should I place it at 5000ft AGL,or should I turn off the AGL when placing the Bridge? I'm thinking that is where my problem is. I'm wondering if placing the Bridge at 0ft AGL is pretty much just putting it at Sea Level which would be below the Base Terrain level of 5000ft. You have to remember, the Uinta Basin in Utah is 5000ft above Sea Level. I had to change the altitude of the airport project way back when I moved the original airport to this location. It was orginally located somewhere out in the Atlantic which started causing major issues with making solid ground and all, that's why I decided to move it inland and just change the altitude of the airport to match the terrain. It took me several days to go in and change the altitudes of all the objects and taxis, and what nots...............I don't ever want to have to do that again, of course when this project was started back in the early 2000s it was less complex and smaller, but it has changed dramaticly since then, I've added A LOT of stuff since then.

I may need to take a look at the bridge model in GMAX (that's what I used to create it) and see what the altitudes of the bridge surfaces are. I used default values when I made it a long time ago, it was made for the original project, so since the altitude of the project has changed, the bridge may not work as it di in the original project. I may need to tweek the bridge a bit. I'm not sure if Sketchup will import a GMAX model or not. I lost the manual to my GMAX ,so I don't remember how to use it anymore, it's been a long time since then, 25+ years, can't even find a copy of the GMAX manual anywhere. GMAX was so easy to use, I wish I could use it again. Sketchup is more powerful, but a bit more complicated.

 

[GaryGB]

I am referring to the grid squares in ADE. I tried doing all of this in SBuilderX, but that really messed things up, the bridge wound up sunken underground and doesn't even show up except for the top of it.

As stated previously, the ADE Grid does not correlate with any Geographic coordinates or SDK TMF Quad Grid coordinates:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site:+www,fsdeveloper.com+grid+squares+in+ADE&client=firefox-b-1-e&sca_esv=3671a83ed5e7efc5&channel=entpr&ei=em6baLmcDpW_p84P2KOhgA0&ved=0ahUKEwi5wYKU24WPAxWV38kDHdhRCNAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=site:+www,fsdeveloper.com+grid+squares+in+ADE&gs_lp=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_EFYtpfvLZxqpCIBgGQBhS6BgYIARABGAi6BgQIAhgHkgcFMTQuMTWgB-S6AbIHBTEyLjE1uAerF8IHCTIuMTAuMTYuMcgHZA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

I have a question though, does AGL refer to the "sea Level" or does that refer to the "Ground Level" of the airport?

AGL - Above Ground Level (local ground surfaces; FSX' terrain render of terrain mesh modified by any superimposed flattens.

AMSL = Above Mean Sea Level; Mean Sea Level (aka "MSL") = 0 meters; FSX' "Living Water" cycles floating objects +/- 1 Foot

Uinta Basin = 5,00 Feet AMSL.

The SWR anomalous "Bubble" recently ID'd as 3,200 Feet at its top = 5,000 Ft. + 3,200 Ft. = 8,300 Ft. AMSL at its top.

Reportedly the SWR anomalous "Bubble" also has a 2,000 Ft. Radius, and extends under local ground surface (+AMSL or -AGL)


IMHO, it's "The Giant Breast Implant From Outer Space".

I wonder if SWR will subdue it with a Giant Brassiere like Woody Allen did in his comedy movie years ago ?

https://www.google.com/search?clien...kEHSMxHGoQtKgLegQIDBAB&biw=1440&bih=744&dpr=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every...w_About_Sex*_(*But_Were_Afraid_to_Ask)_(film)

Spoiler: Fake Object Alert: "UAP = Unidentified Areola Phenomena"

https://oldhollywood.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F15709457957

In other words, is AGL the same as my ARP which is 5000ft above Sea Level or is it 0ft at Sea Level?

I've been trying to place the bridge over the 100ft gap between the island and the base shore which is 5000ft above Sea Level.

I place my bridge leaving the altitude at 0 AGL.

Should I place it at 5000ft AGL, or should I turn off the AGL when placing the Bridge?

No, then Yes.

ARP = AMSL; so ARP is always relative to MSL

An ARP at 5,000 Ft. = 5,000 Ft. Above Mean Sea Level (MSL = 0 Meters or 0 Feet IRL and in the 3D sim world.)

I'm thinking that is where my problem is. I'm wondering if placing the Bridge at 0ft AGL is pretty much just putting it at Sea Level which would be below the Base Terrain level of 5000ft. You have to remember, the Uinta Basin in Utah is 5000ft above Sea Level.

To place the bridge roadway surface at 0 Feet AGL relative to local ground surface as rendered by FSX from terrain mesh:

1.) Measure Height of the bridge roadway surface from the bridge base

2.) Subtract that value from the placement Altitude AMSL otherwise required to place the bridge roadway surface at 0 Feet AGL.

Placement is always measured at the central base of 3D models IF the Origin of Axes @ X=0, Y=0, Z=0 is set at the base center.


I would use rhumbaflappy's Sketchup plugin "center_group_bottom", subject to my suggested extra steps, as discussed here:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/centering-objects.71321/

I had to change the altitude of the airport project way back when I moved the original airport to this location. It was originally located somewhere out in the Atlantic which started causing major issues with making solid ground and all, that's why I decided to move it inland, and just change the altitude of the airport to match the terrain. It took me several days to go in and change the altitudes of all the objects and taxis, and what nots.

I don't ever want to have to do that again, of course when this project was started back in the early 2000s it was less complex and smaller, but it has changed dramatically since then, I've added A LOT of stuff since then.

Chalk it up to learning; it's what we all do as part of the "FS Experience".

I may need to take a look at the bridge model in GMAX (that's what I used to create it) and see what the altitudes of the bridge surfaces are. I used default values when I made it a long time ago, it was made for the original project, so since the altitude of the project has changed, the bridge may not work as it did in the original project. I may need to tweak the bridge a bit.

GMAX info and miscellaneous downloads are all still to be found via FSDEV and a few other websites with a bit of a search.

Sketchup will prove easier to use IMHO, and with a lot less stress.

I'm not sure if Sketchup will import a GMAX model or not.

I lost the manual to my GMAX ,so I don't remember how to use it anymore, it's been a long time since then, 25+ years, can't even find a copy of the GMAX manual anywhere. GMAX was so easy to use, I wish I could use it again.

Sketchup is more powerful, but a bit more complicated.

Numerous plugins can extend the ability of Sketchup to import 3D model exchange file formats.

IIUC, GMAX exports a 3D model exchange file that MCX can import.

MCX then exports a 3D model exchange file format that Sketchup can import.


IMHO, your time / effort would be better spent using Sketchup rather than chasing down old GMAX files versions and Docs.

GaryGB

 

[Tomt478]

I just have to learn how to properly use Sketchup, as the manual for GMAX is no longer available. I've spent hours researching to find at least someone with an old copy, but never found one. I remember a little bit of how to use it, but not enough to do complex things. That's also about the knowledge I have of Sketchup. I can do basic and simple tasks, but complex manipulations of objects is another story altogether. I'm going to try and use the bridge As-Is by adjusting the altitude and such, until I can learn enough about sketchup to be able to use it. there was a link somewhere that had a video tutorial on Sketchup, but can not for the likes of me, find the darn thing.

 

[Tomt478]

So if the island top surface is at 5000ft AMSL, and the lake is 4900ft AMSL which puts it 100ft below the terrain level of 5000ft AMSL, if I add the bridge object it's altitude should be 0ft AMSL which should extend it 'over' the 100ft gap between the terrain surface (5000ft AMSL) and the island surface (also at 5000ft AMSL). the thing is, I think when I made the bridge object years ago, I had no knowledge of all this altitude stuff and the bridge altitude wasn't quite right. Remember, when I made the bridge the airport project was in a different location with a 0ft AMSL so I never had to do any adjustments to objects' altitude, but now since the bridge was made with 0ft AMSL , when you place it on the project which is no longer at 0ft AMSL, the bridge is way too low and actually sinks into the ground which is why when I do place it as stated above, the bridge gets 'sunk' into the ground and actually winds up 'under water' so when you reach the end of the bridge you wind up crashing into the water instead of comming out on the island surface. I tried putting the bridge at 5000ft to compensate, but now the bridge is too high and appears 'floating' in the air and neither end is even on the ground. Remember, I'm working with a 25+ year old object.

 

[GaryGB]

Post screenshots so we can see what your text statements attempt to describe.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

Bridges can have support structures that descend to ground / water level, but I doubt it would be necessary to 3D model that way if it means a vertical descent of nearly a mile.

Bridges over very deep drops to water level likely are only smaller spans of geometry that actually form the roadway and support structures, unlikely to be more than 100 feet in size vertically.

5,000 Feet is nearly a mile, and not cost-effective to make / build IRL.

UPDATE: Here is an example of this type of bridge, the span of which is smaller vertically across a river canyon in the SW USA.

"3D Warehouse" has freely downloadable objects that open directly into Sketchup.

https://embed-dev-3dwarehouse-class...d321a8923a7f8c297806e0604d08fd6/Navajo-Bridge

GaryGB

 

[tgibson]

Can’t you just increase the altitude of the bridge when you place it, higher than 0 feet above the ground? And 0 ft AMSL is on the water, unless you placed the bridge’s reference point well below the bridge when you built it.

 

[GaryGB]

In Sketchup, make a 3D model of a bridge, texture it, and import it to MCX.

Use MCX Object Placement Editor to assign Altitude in AMSL mode to 'place it.

This requires setting AltitudeIsAGL=False


Sink the bridge 3D model base- and each end- into adjacent terrain (but with bridge road surface even with surrounding terrain surfaces).

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/altitude.446488/post-833742


NOTE: MCX' PDF Manual is in the MCX installation root folder; use the latest development release of MCX linked here:

https://www.scenerydesign.org/latest-release/modelconverterx_latest_development_release.zip


Open the PDF in a web browser for keyword searches throughout the entire PDF file (faster than using Adobe Acrobat Reader DC)

See: Section 6.3 Object placement editor