Flightsim.to new business model and terms of service leaves content creators without rights to their own work

[Tim Collins]

I have not followed all this thread, but I found this on a Google search for "Tonga":

https://history.state.gov/countries/tonga

If this info is current, does UK's withdrawal from EU impact developer's rights under UK laws ?


I agree with Dick's perspective:

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/t...t-rights-to-their-own-work.456792/post-912621


Developers should maintain all rights to their IP with no restrictive covenants.

IMHO, nothing of enduring value will come from a covenant that restricts a Developer / Innovator / Creator / Maker / Artist.

Witness the misfortune of many musical artists / performers due to bad contracts signed as newbies to the industry's draconian tactics.

GaryGB

Tonga is an independent nation. Its membership of the Commonwealth implies no application of UK law in any way whatsoever.

 

[GaryGB]

Tonga is an independent nation. Its membership of the Commonwealth implies no application of UK law in any way whatsoever.

Hi Tim:

Just out of curiosity, do you have an opinion on the assertions of the topic in this thread ?

After researching this a bit further, one might wonder whether the Commonwealth rather than the UK (according to Tim, at least), may be an entity with jurisdiction over actors in Tonga as a Commonwealth nation ...that may - or may not- deny individuals rights to their own work:

https://www.commonwealthofnations.org/commonwealth-in-action/rule-of-law-2/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Com...aAQYIARABGAnaAQYIAhABGAg&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

GaryGB

 

[WildLynxPilot]

They have changed their Terms of Service now! New rules in effect from 5th March. Read thoroughly!

 

[Tim Collins]

Hi Tim:

Just out of curiosity, do you have an opinion on the assertions of the topic in this thread ?

After researching this a bit further, one might wonder whether the Commonwealth rather than the UK (according to Tim, at least), may be an entity with jurisdiction over actors in Tonga as a Commonwealth nation ...that may - or may not- deny individuals rights to their own work:

https://www.commonwealthofnations.org/commonwealth-in-action/rule-of-law-2/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Com...aAQYIARABGAnaAQYIAhABGAg&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

GaryGB

Gary, you will find my opinion stated clearly on the discussion page at flightsim.to and on the topic I raised myself about this at MAIW. For the record, I am totally against an assertion of rules that remove the content creators’ rights to their own work.

Nevertheless, the Commonwealth is not a jurisdiction. It is an association of independent nations. It is neither owned nor controlled by the UK nor can the UK impose its law on any member country. There are very few territories remaining as Crown dependencies over which the UK has some legal sway. Tonga is not one of them.

Commonwealth of Nations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Truelz]

Sorry to say so, but that ToS isn't exactly new, they had the same thing back in 2020:

Moreover, by submitting or posting User Content to the Service (either directly or through a Third Party Service) you grant this Site a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, assignable, unrestricted, worldwide license to use the User Content, together with all consents or waivers (if any) necessary to distribute, publicly perform, publicly display, transmit, communicate to the public and modify the User Content, by any means and in all media formats and channels now known or hereafter devised in perpetuity, and to advertise and promote such use, without further notice to, or permission from, you or any other person, and without compensation or reference to you or any other person.

The big difference back then was that you could have your content deleted (At least according to the ToS)

As soon as you decide to delete your User Content(s), we will irrevocably delete it completely from our server(s) within two weeks and will no longer make use of the above-mentioned license in the future.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201028204310/https://flightsim.to/legal/terms

But these kind of terms they have now also aren't that uncommon for sites with user generated content, the big difference is some allow for deletion of content others do not:
Nexusmods.com:

When you upload or post content to our site, you grant us the following rights to use that content:

• a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform that user-generated content in connection with the service provided by the website and across different media including to promote the site or the service forever;
• a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence for our partners and advertisers to use the content for their purposes and in accordance with the functionality of the site forever;
• a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence for other users to use the content for their own recreational purposes only and in accordance with the purpose of the site (that is, to enable users to download video game mods for their personal use and enjoyment) forever.

In particular, we may retain your content indefinitely and are not obliged to delete your content if you so request. The rights you grant us continue after this agreement is terminated or your access to the site is withdrawn by us.

Reddit.com

When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content.

Youtube.com

Licence to YouTube
By providing Content to the Service, you grant to YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable licence to use that Content (including to reproduce, distribute, modify, display and perform it) for the purpose of operating, promoting, and improving the Service.

Licence to Other Users
You also grant each other user of the Service a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free licence to access your Content through the Service, and to use that Content (including to reproduce, distribute, modify, display, and perform it) only as enabled by a feature of the Service.

Duration of Licence
The licences granted by you continue until the Content is removed as described below. Once removed, the licences will terminate, except where the operation of the Service, use of Content permitted before your removal, or the law requires otherwise. For example, removal of Content by you does not require YouTube to: (a) recall Content that is being used by other users within any limited offline viewing functionality of the Service; or (b) delete copies we reasonably need to keep for legal purposes.

Right to Monetize

You grant to YouTube the right to monetize your Content on the Service (and such monetization may include displaying ads on or within Content or charging users a fee for access). This Agreement does not entitle you to any payments. Starting June 1, 2021, any payments you may be entitled to receive from YouTube under any other agreement between you and YouTube (including for example payments under the YouTube Partner Program, Channel memberships or Super Chat) will be treated as royalties. If required by law, Google will withhold taxes from such payments.

Steam

When you upload your content to Steam to make it available to other users and/or to Valve, you grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, for the purpose of the operation, distribution, incorporation as part of and promotion of the Steam service, Steam games or other Steam offerings, including Subscriptions. This license is granted to Valve as the content is uploaded on Steam for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights. It may be terminated if Valve is in breach of the license and has not cured such breach within fourteen (14) days from receiving notice from you sent to the attention of the Valve Legal Department at the applicable Valve address noted on this Privacy Policy page. The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license. Valve is the sole owner of the derivative works created by Valve from your User Generated Content, and is therefore entitled to grant licenses on these derivative works. If you use Valve cloud storage, you grant us a license to store your information as part of that service. Valve may place limits on the amount of storage you may use.

And for the fun of it the ToS for fsdeveloper.com:

We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice.

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

So all in all as I said in the start it's not like the flightsim.to ToS is very different from other content hosting sites. But with that said, I do think flightsim.to should provide content creators with an option to have their files deleted if they want to do so!
But to me this seems like a 'Storm in a glass of water' as we say in Danish

Edited to add steam as an example as well

 

[mgr]

New one is here:

Flightsim.to » Terms of Service

✓ Discover thousands of free Microsoft Flight Simulator Add-ons and Mods for PC - our liveries, airports, scenery and planes are 100% free to download!

flightsim.to

FAQ: https://flightsim.to/help/website-related/frequently-asked-questions-terms-of-service

Positive is that at least they sort of listened. They claim you still can request to delete your files :

Marcel

 

[KL791]

Sorry to say so, but that ToS isn't exactly new, they had the same thing back in 2020:

The big difference back then was that you could have your content deleted (At least according to the ToS)

https://web.archive.org/web/20201028204310/https://flightsim.to/legal/terms

But these kind of terms they have now also aren't that uncommon for sites with user generated content, the big difference is some allow for deletion of content others do not:
Nexusmods.com:

Reddit.com

Youtube.com

Steam


And for the fun of it the ToS for fsdeveloper.com:


So all in all as I said in the start it's not like the flightsim.to ToS is very different from other content hosting sites. But with that said, I do think flightsim.to should provide content creators with an option to have their files deleted if they want to do so!
But to me this seems like a 'Storm in a glass of water' as we say in Danish

Edited to add steam as an example as well

For me the lack of right to deletion AND the change of business model, without giving content providers a fair chance to back out before introducing this model is the real issue.

Funny enough Youtube actually seems to be more soft than flightsim.to

 

[Truelz]

For me the lack of right to deletion AND the change of business model, without giving content providers a fair chance to back out before introducing this model is the real issue.

I agree that the lack of right to deletion is bad but as to the new business model How so? It is not like they can sell your work without your permission as is also stated in the ToS:

(4.3.1) You are granting us this license solely for the purpose of enabling us to fulfill the spirit, legitimate interest and purpose of our Website and to offer, operate, improve and enhance our services. The Site does not have any additional rights, such as selling, billing or sublicensing of your User Content against payment without your express permission, or re-uploading your User Content to third-party sites or claiming ownership of your User Content. The Site may use your User Content solely in connection with the Flightsim.to services.

Funny enough Youtube actually seems to be more soft than flightsim.to

Is it though? YouTube explicitly state that they can put your content behind a paywall without compensation to you.

 

[simmershome]

Is it though? YouTube explicitly state that they can put your content behind a paywall without compensation to you.

..but I can delete my content at any time and then it's definitely out.
I can also set my content to "private" or so that only someone who receives the link from me can see it.

 

[Truelz]

..but I can delete my content at any time and then it's definitely out.

No, no it's not:

For example, removal of Content by you does not require YouTube to: (a) recall Content that is being used by other users within any limited offline viewing functionality of the Service; or (b) delete copies we reasonably need to keep for legal purposes.

There are also plenty of cases of videos getting deleted after people have their channels hacked and YouTube being able to restore them afterwards, so they definitely keeps a copy even after you delete your stuff.

 

[KL791]

No, no it's not:

There are also plenty of cases of videos getting deleted after people have their channels hacked and YouTube being able to restore them afterwards, so they definitely keeps a copy even after you delete your stuff.

Any host should have proper back up of their site in order to be able to restore in that case - also if you by mistake delete - another thing is to actually allow users to delete and completely remove from the public eye and Youtube does allow you to do that though they can't guarantee it 100% as eg other users might have included your content. But even there they offer tools to help detecting it. Actually I was quite impressed with the consistency and explanation from Youtube, which is not the case with Flightsim.to. And Youtube has never been shy about saying that they make money and you as a content creator makes money. For Flightsim.to that is quite different... They have gradually been tightening and moving to a very commercial model without giving content creators options to back out while still claiming not to be a company.

 

[GaryGB]

Gary, you will find my opinion stated clearly on the discussion page at flightsim.to and on the topic I raised myself about this at MAIW. For the record, I am totally against an assertion of rules that remove the content creators’ rights to their own work.

Nevertheless, the Commonwealth is not a jurisdiction. It is an association of independent nations. It is neither owned nor controlled by the UK nor can the UK impose its law on any member country. There are very few territories remaining as Crown dependencies over which the UK has some legal sway. Tonga is not one of them.

Commonwealth of Nations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hi Tim:

Thanks for clarifying your perspective on this topic, and for facilitating this important discussion.

GaryGB

 

[darshonaut]

I took the mentioned route and replaced my addons with text files.
Strangely, three of them I could delete without filing a request, the others not and I did not bother.
My three main sceneries I will host myself, the others I don't know yet. Some early stuff,like flightplans, they can keep
Destruction to me is part of the creative process so I need to be able to delete my work if I wish so.
When I joined that website, it was no problem to delete uploads.
Also how dare they introduce a Premium model and not give every uploader a Premium Account automatically.
Without the uploaders they would not have anything to download at all.

It's propably better in the long term if the freeware hosting gets more diversisied for MSFS and is not focused on one big website too much.

I don't mind having fewer downloads for my sceneries in the future.

 

[Tim Collins]

Hi Tim:

Thanks for clarifying your perspective on this topic, and for facilitating this important discussion.

GaryGB

I think, over and above what I've said, that the origin of the domain suffix is irrelevant in any legal proceedings. If it wasn't, any arguments over the content on .com domains would have to be held in the US, wherever the businesses were registered or operated. I think the relevant information is where the business is registered (if it is a business), and where its operating offices or personnel are. I understand that the domain registrar is in California. The site offers no definitive information, but the three major protagonists are apparently in the timezone UTC+2, which is likely to be the eastern half of Europe.

 

[Jonx.]

There is a lot of talk, rumors, articles, policy changes, and boycott talks happening in the community.

I would like to clarify a couple of things for individuals who don't want to read every detail going on in regards to Flightsim.to. Hopefully my merit as one of the leading community aircraft developers is enough to lend your ear.

#1 - Flightsim.to's Terms of Service matches other mod-hosting websites. **This is not the issue.**

#2 - Flightsim.to is starting Premium Memberships. It costs money to run the website. **This is not the issue.**

#3 - Flightsim.to limits your ability to permanently delete your files. Not a problem if you are low-visibility. However, if you are high-visibility, a request to delete your file can be denied. Your file will still be available for download and if you choose to delete your account, Flightsim.to will just re-upload the last working version under their own account. **This has been done before, this is the issue.**

There are arguments going on throughout the community and people are missing the point. Most of us understand the TOS just fine. The TOS combined with the Anti-Deletion Policy is driving developers away from Flightsim.to.

That's really all I have to say. Alot of conversations, forums, discords, reddits, and articles are missing the point entirely. They are questioning other details and making creators look like we are just "pulling the trigger too fast" and "Not being appreciative for a free web hosting solution".

The truth is, Flightsim.to gave developers the opportunity to escape before March 5th, 2023. The **ONLY** time in 6 months, that any high-visibility developers have been able to delete their content, no questions asked. Developers are simply taking advantage of that fact.

If you wish to stay, I salute you. If you wish to leave, I salute you the same and will support you any way I can.

Cheers!

 

[KL791]

Seems the terms on Flightsim.to have been rewritten a few times today and the discussion about their Premium and Creators Program removed... too many negative comments and votes...

Now there is a new section on the Creators Program, which in itself has things that i would personally never have accepted, but as I will delete my account, it isn't really an issue anymore. Trust is lost.

We will in the GAIST team discuss alternative solutions over the next days.

One important aspect of any solution though will be real creator control over content. Second, I at least will support different sites, as monopoly in no business is a good thing.

I was asked on another site why I uploaded to flyawaysimulation.com and simviation.com which also have Premium programs and funny clauses, and I did for one sole reason: to avoid granting Flightsim.to monopoly and I have a direct conversation with the teams behind each of those sites.

 

[Tim Collins]

Jonx, I think it's a little more than that. It may well be that other modding sites (which doesn't accurately describe the flight sim content creation community, but that's semantics) use these ToS. However, I would question the legality of some of these Terms when related to what is Intellectual Property. It's unlikely that can be resolved unless it were tested in court, and that's unlikely to happen, but I would contend that these sites have copied and pasted ToS from other 'modding' sites and haven't done a great deal to legally test those terms. It would certainly appear to me that flightsim.to's terms allow it to modify and distribute your content without your consent, and that must be wrong no matter how benign the intent.

I don't think there really is any issue about the Premium Membership or the potential to monetize content under these ToS.

 

[simmershome]

We will in the GAIST team discuss alternative solutions over the next days.

If FBW provides a platform for freware in their installer, I would even put my previously self-hosted MSFS addon there. What better could there be for freeware in MSFS. At the same time it would be even more convenient for the users

 

[Jonx.]

It would certainly appear to me that flightsim.to's terms allow it to modify and distribute your content without your consent, and that must be wrong no matter how benign the intent.

This morning, Flightsim.to released a new TOS that removes their ability to modify your content. This is a step forward in the right direction.
This said, I do apologize if my post didn't come across correctly. I am NOT saying that the TOS is fine. I am however stating that it is very similar to almost all mod-hosting websites.
Yes, there are issues with the TOS, issues with the Premium Accounts, issues with the Content Creator Rewards Program, and issues with their Website in general.
I just wanted to re-iterate that the main reason why many developers are leaving is "Primarily" because of their limited anti-deletion policies.

 

[Tim Collins]

This morning, Flightsim.to released a new TOS that removes their ability to modify your content. This is a step forward in the right direction.
This said, I do apologize if my post didn't come across correctly. I am NOT saying that the TOS is fine. I am however stating that it is very similar to almost all mod-hosting websites.
Yes, there are issues with the TOS, issues with the Premium Accounts, issues with the Content Creator Rewards Program, and issues with their Website in general.
I just wanted to re-iterate that the main reason why many developers are leaving is "Primarily" because of their limited anti-deletion policies.

No apology required; it’s a discussion, and different points of view should always be welcome.

I do think this ‘copy’n’paste’ approach to TOS is risky, and I suspect flightsim.to are beginning to recognise that! Of course there are minor issues with those other things, but I’m sure they can be ironed out. As you say, the anti-deletion issue is perhaps the main bone of contention, but if they rescind both that and the ‘right to modify without consent’ term, then they might begin to repair the damage they’ve done. And other download sites may learn a salutary lesson.