Modification and Use of Third Party Addons

[spotlope]

Thanking Jon Masterson, Arno Gerretsen and a few other people for helping me get to grips with ADE, ModelConverterX, FSX, Sketchup, Gimp and a few other tools I already forgot

They helped me figure out how to get into the Orbx add-on for PFJ and change the stock terminal they put there. Next steps is to replace the other non-realistic buildings, adapt the parking positions, build a correct gate and then some.

ADE also was the tool that made me discover that the much heralded and eagerly protected 'Orbx objects libraries' contain quite a few 'Tongass Fjords' objects. Hmmmmm...... still not sure how that works, but I'll figure it out one of these days.

Now to get some real work done, and then back to finishing the terminal first before tackling the other buildings, moorings, ferry and the rest.

Even if I lose lots of money on this, it is fun work

Just to be clear, the Orbx objects you're referring to are very similar to the Tongass objects for a reason - I created them all! The cabins we used were re-worked versions of the ones I did for Tongass. Most of the base mesh is the same, but I re-worked the textures.

This is nothing new, by the way. If you look closely at some of the fictional buildings in the FSAddon "Freight Dogs" scenery, you'll see a striking resemblance to some of those in the MAAM-SIM KRDG scenery. It's some time ago, so you probably don't remember, but I informed you of that fact at the time. There's not a modeler out there who doesn't reuse his object libraries when appropriate. That's why I retain the IP rights to everything I've created, for just such occurrences.

 

[scruffyduck]

As a matter of information ADE uses the object GUID so if the GUID were unchanged from one iteration of an object to the next then it would not know there was any difference.

 

[Francois]

I understand they are yours, Bill.

And just so it is clear, I am not disputing YOUR right to re-use stuff you've made, nor your copyrights.

But here's my observation:
- I disable Plum Island, Tongass Fjords X, Vancouver and just about every other add-on scenery on my PC
- Orbx' enhanced PAKT remains fully functional and visible. Fine.

but then this:
- I load Orbx 'enhanced' PAKT into ADE.
- ADE doesn't recognize the non-default objects
- I import ALL Orbx bgl's (libs) into ADE (Orbx libs, Orbx NA and Orbx PFJ)
- ADE now recognizes 3 static aircraft, but almost ALL other objects at PAKT are STILL black boxes..... I am very puzzled.
- Now I load the bgl's contained in our Tongass Fjords X package and lo and behold.... ALL objects except for 1 little shed turn up in ADE

I am not an expert like everybody else here, so I'd love to hear another conclusion than the one I reached, i.e. PAKT Orbx is either using the TFX library somehow, or its objects.

If things work differently, I'd love to learn.....

 

[scruffyduck]

As per my post above one reason is that the GUIDs in the Tongass libraries are the same as those used in the Orbyx scenery. ADE reads the GUID from the decompiled placement bgl and looks for an object in its database with the same GUID. If it finds it then it assumes that is the object. Thus ADE is recognizing them as Tongass when in the released scenery they are the same GUID but different objects. I would assume that somewhere is another library with the Orbyx objects in it which you did not yet find Francois.

I would also remind us all (me included ) that this would not be the place for a discussion over the rights and wrongs etc of these objects - it being way outside our remit

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Jon:

[EDITED]
Should we not also be addressing in this thread the issue of how the onus is on all FS Developers to avoid willful ...or accidental... duplication of object GUIDs in anything intended for distribution out into the FS Community, as IMO, this practice ultimately increases the risk for CHAOS and impaired performance in the FS world for potentially everyone (...not just former business associates) ?

[END_EDIT]

GaryGB

 

[spotlope]

As per my post above one reason is that the GUIDs in the Tongass libraries are the same as those used in the Orbyx scenery. ADE reads the GUID from the decompiled placement bgl and looks for an object in its database with the same GUID. If it finds it then it assumes that is the object. Thus ADE is recognizing them as Tongass when in the released scenery they are the same GUID but different objects. I would assume that somewhere is another library with the Orbyx objects in it which you did not yet find Francois.

I would also remind us all (me included ) that this would not be the place for a discussion over the rights and wrongs etc of these objects - it being way outside our remit

I worked to make sure that the Orbx cabin GUIDs were indeed unique, and not duplicates of the Tongass IDs. Using ModelConverterX, I just ran reports on both the Orbx (no "y" in there, btw ;-)) and FSAddon libraries, and the GUIDs were indeed different. If somehow there are other models that share IDs, that's unintentional. Can someone point out which models use the same GUIDs?

thanks,
Bill

 

[scruffyduck]

I would never assume it is 'willful' It is a fair point though that duplicated GUIDs do cause issues and should be avoided. On the other hand we have the situation where the same object can and does appear with different GUIDs. It would be nice to think that we would have one GUID for each unique, distinct or modified object. For a long time we did not allow our decompiler to generate mdl files, although other decompilers have always done that. Our reason was pretty much that mdl files are the copyright material in a library. Also we were aware of the potential for building new libraries from old objects. I suppose the most common being to unlock locked MS objects and put them in a new library so they can be used anywhere.

In the wrong hands (and here I would tend to mean inexperienced) a combination of a decompiler and library creator can be trouble indeed.......

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois (...and Bill W. too, perhaps ?):

Until Jon or someone else implements further functionality into a Windows GUI utility intended to identify duplicate scenery objects (as I am reminded that there would be more to such an object analysis process than just comparing GUIDs), perhaps this CMD-mode utility by Michael Heise might be of some assistance to the troubleshooting process ?

"MH's FS Library Scan V1.1

File Description:
This utility will scan FS scenery folders for BGL library files. Unlike BGLScan in the FS SDK, it can cope with both FS9 and FSX library files. Information on library objects like GUIDs, multiple occurences, required and missing textures is written to csv files. This new version corrects bugs with incorrect missing texture reports. Texture files with alternative ending (e.g. DDS instead of BMP) or existing daylight textures will be found and reported. Certain scenery folders may now be excluded from the search - useful if additional "light" versions would lead to redundant results. "

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fsxutil&DLID=102853

PS: This utility's output CSV files could be viewed as text files or used in a spreadsheet for further post-processing and analysis.


Hope this helps !

GaryGB

 

[scruffyduck]

I worked to make sure that the Orbx cabin GUIDs were indeed unique, and not duplicates of the Tongass IDs. Using ModelConverterX, I just ran reports on both the Orbx (no "y" in there, btw ;-)) and FSAddon libraries, and the GUIDs were indeed different. If somehow there are other models that share IDs, that's unintentional. Can someone point out which models use the same GUIDs?

thanks,
Bill

Thanks Bill
I would think that Francois could use ADE to identify the objects in the Orbx (no y - ooops ) that appear to refer to GUIDs coming from other libraries.

I don't have any of the products referred to so can't really help here.

 

[Francois]

I could I guess. But basically almost ALL of the objects showing on PAKT were affected except for the cars (default MS), the main terminal building underneath the PAKT terminal and the tower sticking out of the terminal (MS Default too).

Then there were 3 aircraft, aircraft shadows and some Australian scenery shadows (ymml) recognized. All the rest was black.

I can use the 'list' utility to show the objects, but not sure how to compare 'libraries' as I haven't apparently found the Orbx bgl that is causing the confusion. I also noticed that in that list no GUIDS are shown?

Last but not least, I got it working now, to go back to the 'problem situation' means I will need to clear the ADE database again?

 

[scruffyduck]

I could I guess. But basically almost ALL of the objects showing on PAKT were affected except for the cars (default MS), the main terminal building underneath the PAKT terminal and the tower sticking out of the terminal (MS Default too).

Then there were 3 aircraft, aircraft shadows and some Australian scenery shadows (ymml) recognized. All the rest was black.

I can use the 'list' utility to show the objects, but not sure how to compare 'libraries' as I haven't apparently found the Orbx bgl that is causing the confusion. I also noticed that in that list no GUIDS are shown?

Last but not least, I got it working now, to go back to the 'problem situation' means I will need to clear the ADE database again?

Thinking about it I might be able to help.....

 

[Francois]

Help is always good and appreciated

 

[HolgerSandmann]

Hi Francois,

I'm still not sure what you're trying to achieve. The PFJ PAKT objects, like all of the PFJ object placement files, were placed with Instant Scenery, not with ADE. The object libraries used have nothing to do with Tongass X and have unique model names and GUIDs as well as different texture sheets (I have complete library spreadsheets for both projects). If you feel the need to check their content for copyright infringements then go ahead and decompile them or use IS2's object list option and cross-check GUIDs.

Other than that you cannot redistribute an altered version of the ORBX ADE or IS files anyway so why use this awkward approach with loading our IS file into ADE? Moreover the particular PFJ "PAKT" object placement file (FTX_PFJ_objects_PAKT_PLC.bgl) also places objects in Stewart, BC, and a few other locations as well, meaning it's not just an airport file. Again, IS2 and its object list function provides that information in a matter of minutes.

Cheers, Holger

 

[Francois]

Dear Holger,

I am not trying to copy your or Bill's work, or question it for that matter (but, for the record, am fully entitled to re-publish objects made for FSAddon should I so wish). You of all people also know that the Tongass Fjords and other objects published by us are free to be 'placed' and seen by customer who have the original products installed. Actually, it is one of the selling points of such software and draws more buyers ultimately.
Out of courtesy to the forum owners I will of course not discuss any perceived copyright issues here.

So to your question: what I am trying to achieve (and I don't really have a preference for the choice of tools) is to replace some of the non-realistic buildings on PAKT and elsewhere with my own New Misty Fjords versions. In case of PFJ customers, that needs special attention obviously. I'll just 'overwrite' the Orbx placement files if that's what is needed, leaving in place what you put on the user's PC yourself.

Admitted, I am not an experienced scenery designer and may look at some wrong decisions in terms of tools or methods. That's why I am here.
If Instant Scenery can do the trick, I'm fine with that too.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois:

Another couple of ways to visually identify "objects from all scenery files" at PAKT is to use Instant Scenery version 2 (aka “IS2").


IS2 has a very convenient feature that identifies on-screen, xml-placed objects in a scenery object placement BGL.

NOTE: Whether or not that BGL was made by IS2 won't matter, as those BGLs made via other methods such as via FS9 or FSX BGLCompiler... can also be opened after a quick tweak procedure.


IS2 can even ID those Objects, Generic Buildings, and Exclusions "placed" near the current aircraft location from ALL scenery files which are 'active' in FS within a specified number of miles radius.



Identify objects in IS2 “Move / Delete Objects” mode



In FSX at PAKT in ex: Finney Ground Crosshairs Plus aircraft

Set camera view to Top-Down or Virtual Cockpit without instruments displayed with desired Zoom level

1.) Slew aircraft to (minimum of) 50 to 100 feet AGL
2.) Open IS2 from FSX main menu > Add-ons > Instant Scenery
3.) On the IS2 main menu, click on the ‘Folder icon’ (Open Scenery) and browse to:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_NA\FTX_NA_PFJ05_SCENERY\scenery

4.) Select “FTX_PFJ_objects_PAKT_PLC.bgl” and click “Open”
5.) Back in FSX, right-click the ground, and click to ‘check’ “Move / Delete Objects”
6.) Again in FSX, right-click the ground, and click “Labels” then click to ‘check’ “All Objects”
7.) Once more in FSX, right-click the ground, and click “Labels” then click to ‘check’ “Library and Model”
8.) Back in FSX with IS2 still open, move the mouse cursor over objects to select them (mouse-over)


NOTE: When selected by a ‘mouse-over’, scenery objects in the currently “open” IS2 or other XML scenery object placement file... will display their bounding box, and their corresponding library and model name will be highlighted on-screen.


Alternatively, another method may be used to scan multiple IS2 or other XML scenery object placement files all at one time...


Identify objects in IS2 “Show Objects From All BGLs” mode


In FSX at PAKT in ex: Finney Ground Crosshairs Plus aircraft

Set camera view to Top-Down or Virtual Cockpit without instruments displayed with desired Zoom level

1.) Slew aircraft to (minimum of) 50 to 100 feet AGL
2.) Open IS2 from FSX main menu > Add-ons > Instant Scenery
3.) In FSX, right-click the ground, and click “Labels” then click to ‘check’ “All Objects”
4.) In FSX, right-click the ground, and click “Labels” then click to ‘check’ “Library and Model”
5.) In FSX, right-click the ground, and click “Extras” then click to ‘check’ “Show Objects From All BGLs”


NOTE: From the latter context menu, a “Objects From All BGLs” dialog pops up

6.) In the “Objects From All BGLs” dialog, click to ‘check’ “Objects”, “Gen. Buildings”, and “Exclusions”
7.) Still in“Objects From All BGLs” dialog, click in “Radius, NM” to set a (1) nautical mile radius; click “Scan”

IIUC, after the BGL scan is done, IS2 should identify on-screen, "ALL" default FS and 3rd party XML-placed scenery objects 'active' in the FS scenery library... for that geographical area (within a 1 mile radius of the aircraft) at PAKT.


There are, of course, additional ways one can ensure that smaller 'object-specific' excludes can be implemented, and for replacement objects to be placed precisely at the desired locations around PAKT.

I'm confident that what you may wish to achieve can be done fairly easily with an exploration of various methods shared via continued helpful suggestions... in a spirit of camaraderie and support by folks here at FS Developer.

Hope these initial options involving IS2 may help ID pertinent objects and exclusions for purposes of the evaluation, planning and development process at PAKT !

GaryGB

 

[hcornea]

....... I'll just 'overwrite' the Orbx placement files if that's what is needed, leaving in place what you put on the user's PC yourself....... .

Now that would be the single worst technique to use ... and would create confusion for your customers.

A much less messy technique would be to exclude terrain elements to avoid corrupting peoples other scenery folders.

I think if people are paying for scenery, the least they can expect is that it won't corrupt their existing installation.

The issue of "reusing" scenery objects from other packages is a technical minefield:

1) if you provide the libraries and install in a separate location (and the user has the other scenery) you create a GUID conflict

2) if you place the objects, without providing the libraries nothing will show up, obviously

3) if you re-GUID the objects and re-use the textures may create intellectual property issues, depending on your agreement wih the original authors

4) if you install part of the original package, you may have to pay royalties for a "partial distribution" and use.

...... minefield!

Incidentally, I dont know what position you are in if your installer intentionally deletes or modifies another publishers files. That might place you in an uneviable position (a bit like trying to spraypaint over a competitor's shop window!)

It may be easier, cleaner and more fun to make the scenery objects yourself!

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Ian:

Indeed, it's feasible that using carefully-positioned and adequately sized "excludes" should allow any FS developer to selectively 'suppress' other scenery in the FS scenery library stack of layers, in preparation for substituting their own custom scenery in a layer "above" all that which precedes it.

The discussion of scenery development techniques and options underway in this thread should IMHO be given appropriate opportunity for comprehensive exploration, and allowed to culminate in adequate understanding by all interested parties.


AFAIK, this thread ultimately is appropriate and on-topic for the FS Developer Forum, as it involves discussion about ways anyone can implement changes to scenery in one's installation of FSX... using various tools and approaches.


With a bit of patience and clarity of communication, we can all make this a productive and satisfying learning process for interested parties, that proves worthy of our efforts... both now and in the future.

GaryGB

 

[Francois]

Indeed.

@Hcornea, I AM making my own models. But for PFJ customers it means that 'their' models are 'in the way' and need to be surgically removed or overwritten. ONLY the ones that I replace.

I am only interested in the technical solutions here.

 

[GaryGB]

Hi Francois:

Although the majority of OrbX scenery objects at PAKT are derived from the above file:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_NA\FTX_NA_PFJ05_SCENERY\scenery\FTX_PFJ_objects_PAKT_PLC.bgl

...there are a few from other libraries/BGLs that are used in PFJ and FSX default etc. that will require excludes if you wish to suppress rendering and display by the FS scenery engine.

BTW: It's never, IMHO, necessary to "overwrite" or edit another scenery object BGL to achieve successful exclusion and substitution of un-wanted scenery objects (or other content... except maybe for GPS Hydro-Polys).

The rationale and methodology used by ADE and AFX follows a comparable approach for airport scenery BGLs, except that they, IIUC, import and re-write a "new" version of the airport source data... while suppressing other duplicate airports in lower scenery layers.


FYI: One's user-created "exclude" rectangles need to be just large enough to overlap the reference point for the objects in question, without clobbering objects nearby that we wish to have FSX 'keep' displaying.

That process sometimes calls for trial-and-error re-positioning of an exclude to find the actual reference point location at the base of the visible (textured) parts of the scenery object, since the "RefPoint" is not always at the "visual center" or origin of axes when modeled/exported.


Perhaps we can explore such procedures and options more as needed... while this thread "evolves" ?

GaryGB

 

[GaryGB]

Hi again:


I forgot to mention the additional option in IS2 for an in-depth text summary of all FS default and/or 3rd party scenery library objects used in a XML-placement BGL (thanks to Holger for reminding us all of this available feature !)


I'll just edit a quick copy here of an explanation for using this option I posted recently in the IS2 support forum:

http://www.simforums.com/forums/topic38243.html



Identify Objects Used in XML scenery placement BGLs via IS2's "Scenery File" tab


1.) In FSX, 'open' IS2 from FSX main menu > Add-ons > Instant Scenery

2.) On the IS2 main menu, click on the ‘Folder icon’ (Open Scenery) and browse to (for purposes of this example scenario):


[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_NA\FTX_NA_PFJ05_SCENERY\scenery


3.) Select “FTX_PFJ_objects_PAKT_PLC.bgl” and click “Open”

4.) After FS finishes loading the file and re-indexing the scenery library, when returned to one's flight in process, on IS2's menu click "?".

5.) The details of scenery objects used in a XML-placement BGL project should now be displayed on a "Scenery File" tab.


PS: One can select the info, copy to Windows' clipboard via <Ctrl+C>, and paste into Windows NotePad via <Ctrl+V> for offline review and/or editing.

If the file is then saved as a *.TXT file type, when opened in a spreadsheet, the columns are preserved.


Hope this helps !

GaryGB